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4/22/2019 5:32:20 PM
Posted: 12/27/2003 8:10:30 AM EDT
LACK OF WEAPON RETENTION...


IT is a sad thing to hear an officer is down;however, if you read most of the causes of death involving a suspect they are mostly killed by their own weapon.

IS this a lack of training in self defense, kill or be killed, will to survive, weapons retention, and/or tactics and training?

What are these officers lacking....????
God Bless them all...someone needs to improve on something...
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:12:39 AM EDT
"...they are mostly killed by their own weapon." Got any stats to back that assertion? Not a slam, but curious.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:21:25 AM EDT
I’ve heard the same thing repeated often. It’s one of the primary justifications that they’ve made for developing the so-called “smart gun”. Funny thing is that every law so far written regarding “smart guns” specifically EXEMPTS cops from having to use them. Gee, couldn’t see that one coming now, could we? [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:23:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 8:27:45 AM EDT by warlord]
I believe the problem of "killed by own weapon," is why Massad Ayoob advocates carrying on-duty auto-pistols "on-safe" rather than "off-safe," because if the gun ever got away from the police officer, the BG(bad guy) would have to take a few moments/seconds to dis-engage the safety, if they can figure that out in a short amount of time available, which is probably enough time to for the officer to bring a backup weapon to bear. But if you think about it, this would be a perfect application of the "personalized weapon," as advocated by the anti-gunners, at least in theory if such a weapon worked reliably 100% of the time. For awhile Massod Ayoob had a S&W revolver that can only be fired if you were wearing a particular ring on your finger, otherwise it will not fire.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:25:26 AM EDT
Don't know if the stats are accurate, but it wouldn't surprise me. When a citizen gets in a scuffle, there may or may not be a weapon involved. If a police officer gets in a scuffle, there is [u]always[/u] a weapon involved. His. If you think about it, it is difficult to wrestle with someone and not allow them to get near your weapon. And as long as they aren't trying to get your weapon, you can't shoot them. I decided early in my career that I would never roll around on the ground with a bad guy. If he won't comply, I would use the next level of force. Mace, pepper spray, or the baton, and eventually, the pistol. I'm not giving them the chance to use my weapon against me.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:27:57 AM EDT
This has always been true in a given year between 10-20 percent of all offices are killed with their own weapons either by criminals or through accidents or negligence.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:28:08 AM EDT
I don't have a link, but the source for the stat is the FBI.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:33:49 AM EDT
Old_Painless: I'm not a police officer, but I do know enough to never say "never." I see that you have a little "rules of engagement," so to say, but still the possiblility of a BG getting your weapon is smaller, but nevertheless it is still there.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:39:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By warlord: Old_Painless: I'm not a police officer, but I do know enough to never say "never." I see that you have a little "rules of engagement," so to say, but still the possiblility of a BG getting your weapon is smaller, but nevertheless it is still there.
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You are exactly correct. I am a retired LEO, but when on active duty, I was very aware of this problem. Probably due to a police officer in our county getting shot with his own firearm in the past. I will be honest, I can't clearly define "the line" that I had in mind. But when a bad guy crossed it, I was prepared to ratchet it up a notch. And if anybody got shot, I was determined it wasn't going to be me. If a bad guy ever tried to get my weapon, I would have drawn it and shot him full of holes. I'd rather face a grand jury than an autopsy.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:41:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By chetchat: "...they are mostly killed by their own weapon." Got any stats to back that assertion? Not a slam, but curious.
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IF you read www.odmp.org for example....their weapons are taken and used aginst them in numerous cases...this just one reference...
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 8:48:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Originally Posted By warlord: Old_Painless: I'm not a police officer, but I do know enough to never say "never." I see that you have a little "rules of engagement," so to say, but still the possiblility of a BG getting your weapon is smaller, but nevertheless it is still there.
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You are exactly correct. I am a retired LEO, but when on active duty, I was very aware of this problem. Probably due to a police officer in our county getting shot with his own firearm in the past. I will be honest, I can't clearly define "the line" that I had in mind. But when a bad guy crossed it, I was prepared to ratchet it up a notch. And if anybody got shot, I was determined it wasn't going to be me. If a bad guy ever tried to get my weapon, I would have drawn it and shot him full of holes. I'd rather face a grand jury than an autopsy.
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I agree, some street smarts, a variation of the old "its better to be judged by 12, than to be carried by 6."
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:25:12 AM EDT
We carry Smith .45 DOA's, with no safety. Although I personally don't really care for the weapon, the nice thing is that it will not fire with no mag. This is handy (sometimes), if you get into a fight and they are trying to get your gun, drop the mag and let them have it. Next step is to draw the Kel-Tec on ankle and shoot bad guy. SAV308
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:32:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 9:32:37 AM EDT by cyanide]
Originally Posted By warlord: I believe the problem of "killed by own weapon," is why [red]Massad Ayoob[/red] advocates carrying on-duty auto-pistols "on-safe" rather than "off-safe," because if the gun ever got away from the police officer, the BG(bad guy) would have to take a few moments/seconds to dis-engage the safety, if they can figure that out in a short amount of time available, which is probably enough time to for the officer to bring a backup weapon to bear. But if you think about it, this would be a perfect application of the "personalized weapon," as advocated by the anti-gunners, at least in theory if such a weapon worked reliably 100% of the time. For awhile Massod Ayoob had a S&W revolver that can only be fired if you were wearing a particular ring on your finger, otherwise it will not fire.
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[ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][RO­FL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2][ROFL2­]
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:39:31 AM EDT
I have seen a few videos where the badguy does a gun grab but can't figure out the safety, probably saving the cop.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:43:18 AM EDT
According to a New Jersey Institite of Technology report to evaluate and if necessary develop "Personalized Weapons Technology", the FBI data say 16%, another reports 14%, of officers were killed with their own gun. http://www.njit.edu/old/pwt/resources/journal.html According to the Brady Campaign "according to the FBI, 5 out of 41 law enforcement officers (12%) killed by gunfire in the line of duty in 1999 were killed by an adversary with the officer's own service weapon." http://www.bradycampaign.org/facts/issuebriefs/ccw.asp According to the Uniform Crime Reports 57 officers were killed with their own weapons between 1988 and 1998. http://www.ncjrs.org/pdffiles1/jr000244d.pdf FBI stats show that 682 officers were feloniously killed between 1989 and 1998, 626 of those by firearms. http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/killed/98killed.pdf
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:50:10 AM EDT
CAUSE OF DEATH 2002* 2001 2000 1999 1998 1997 Auto Accidents 44 42 50 50 55 47 Shot by Firearm 57 70 53 46 63 68 Job-Related Illness 10 5 7 17 10 14 Struck by Vehicles 13 24 17 10 15 14 Motorcycle Accident 7 8 10 7 4 5 Aircraft Accident 6 5 7 4 4 5 Stabbed by Knife 2 0 2 2 0 5 Falls 0 2 4 3 1 6 Struck by Train 2 0 0 1 1 1 Drowning 3 1 3 0 7 0 Bomb-Related Incident 1 72 1 0 1 1 Boating Accident 0 2 0 0 1 0 Beaten 2 2 2 1 1 0 Crushed 1 1 0 0 1 0 Strangled 0 0 0 0 0 1 Bicycle Accident 0 0 2 0 0 0 Horse Accident 0 0 1 0 0 0 Total 148 234 160 141 164 167 OTHER FACTORS 2002* 2001 2000 1999 1998 1997 Female Officers Killed 15 11 7 11 14 5 Alcohol-Related Deaths 12 25 11 10 30 22 Drug-Related Deaths 2 12 7 8 14 14 Officers Killed Wearing Body Armor 64% 49% 64% 53% 49% 47% Updated 6/11/03
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Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:51:08 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sav308: We carry Smith .45 DOA's, with no safety. Although I personally don't really care for the weapon, the nice thing is that it will not fire with no mag. This is handy (sometimes), if you get into a fight and they are trying to get your gun, drop the mag and let them have it. Next step is to draw the Kel-Tec on ankle and shoot bad guy. SAV308
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Guns that don't fire without a mag are BAD BAD BAD!!! If you are in the middle of a tactical reload holding your gun on a BG, he can attack you when you load a new mag. Just wait till he reloads and charge. Not a feature, a terrible handicap.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:16:45 AM EDT
Sometime it is lack of training. Sometimes it is lack of awareness that this is not just a fight to apprehend but a fight for your life. Sometimes it is just because you ran into one bad mother fucker. Cops are just human. You have bad days, you make mistakes, you have the wrong mindset, you meet your match. All of those things can happen. One of the main things I told my rookies is that you can never get into the mindset that the fight is about the bad guy trying to get away and if worse comes to worse you can disengage and let him go. That is true MOST of the time but then there is that one guy who is trying to kill you. The fight has turned inward. I think when that happens it suprises most of the officers. An attack on your weapon, unless you are totally confident that you can physically take and maintain control of the subject equals one thing; repeated rounds fired into the piece of shit untill he no longer posses a threat. It is a deadly force situation. I have been fortunate in that the several attacks on my weapon were by shit birds who I could simply physically dominate. They did live to regret touching my weapon and I hope they told their friends. And no, it is not "most of the causes of death" but sadly it is many.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:34:14 AM EDT
An attack on your weapon,
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One of the few citizen complaints I ever had was a person who tried to snatch my weapon during a bar room brawl, he was slammed on the knuckles with a metal Stream Light (and I mean hard), I think (hope) I broke a few knuckles and he got away in the melee. He called in later and wanted to file a complaint, He was told to come in we needed to identify him for the attempted felony theft complaint --- never heard from him again.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:41:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 10:43:08 AM EDT by sav308]
Guns that don't fire without a mag are BAD BAD BAD!!! If you are in the middle of a tactical reload holding your gun on a BG, he can attack you when you load a new mag. Just wait till he reloads and charge. Not a feature, a terrible handicap. FiveO 12/27/2003 2:16:45 PM Thats why the 'sometimes' were in there. We don't have a choice on weapons. As I stated before, I'm not really a big fan of the gun. Edited to add that I don't know how to do qoutes yet.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:53:39 AM EDT
A bad guy doesn't ask you if you're ready for him to attack you, or to walk 10 paces and shoot. Sure, some cops get killed with the guns still in their holsters. There have been a few shootings recently of leo's by perps who were pulled over in a routine traffic stop.One recently in San Berdoo, where the bad guy ran out of the car and shot the deputy point blank with the deputy unable to draw and return fire. The streets are unpredictable.So, be ready.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:03:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 11:05:13 AM EDT by FiveO]
Originally Posted By Tactical_Jew: A bad guy doesn't ask you if you're ready for him to attack you, or to walk 10 paces and shoot. Sure, some cops get killed with the guns still in their holsters. There have been a few shootings recently of leo's by perps who were pulled over in a routine traffic stop.One recently in San Berdoo, where the bad guy ran out of the car and shot the deputy point blank with the deputy unable to draw and return fire. The streets are unpredictable.So, be ready.
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Yep. Even the most highly fit, best trained 100% tactical officer can be ambushed or rushed at any time. if your number is up it is up but there is one thing to be certain of; I will not make it easy. Probably the best tactic a B/G can use is to rush an officer's car immediately upon stopping.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:10:22 AM EDT
bad guys...are smart in the ways of an attack. period..they survive by using techniques that will shock..and stun by quickness and reaction. lawmen and women face them. most of the time they win.. unfortunately we have a society that gets bent out of shape whenever..they see LEOs taking on subjects in an overwheling force such as in cincinatti. a badguy intent on getting the LEOs weapon will get his chance too..sooner or later.. i have several friends in OHP and local PD departments who have fought with subjects over their own sidearm and won..some have warned subjects to quit looking at his weapon..when they were telegraphing a move on it. i also know of a OHP trooper that had a BG get ahold of his AR..intent on shooting the LEO.. but was unable to get the gun off safe.. if i was a LEO.. no question..i would want a gun..any gun capable of on safe carry. the odds are too great. with training the transition to OFF safe and firing is a minimal at best..but can be a lifesaver. atleast until you can draw up your 2nd piece.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:23:44 AM EDT
cops wouldn't need weapon retention or guns that have some sort of safety. they need to learn to keep the bad guys in the fucking car. they have em in front of their copper cars because of the dash board cameras. keep the bad guys in the car and the officer has more time to react to sudden movement. the cops think they are lone ranger and don't need back up to do a vehicle search, or a dui, or anything else that happens during a "routine traffic stop." if you think i'm full of shit, do some homework and you'll see that all the cops that get shot have the bad guy outside of the car
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:31:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shindawia6: cops wouldn't need weapon retention or guns that have some sort of safety. they need to learn to keep the bad guys in the fucking car. they have em in front of their copper cars because of the dash board cameras. keep the bad guys in the car and the officer has more time to react to sudden movement. the cops think they are lone ranger and don't need back up to do a vehicle search, or a dui, or anything else that happens during a "routine traffic stop." if you think i'm full of shit, do some homework and you'll see that all the cops that get shot have the bad guy outside of the car
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I hear what you are saying but you can not arrest someone inside a car can you? You can not pat them down, you can not "divide and conquer" interview driver and passenger, you can not search a car, you can not do sobriety tests, etc... with a person in the car. I agree that unless you have to, keep them in the seat and get back up IF YOU CAN. But there are arguments that can be made against that as well. It is obviously not possible to eliminate the risks, just try to be ready. I think about it EVERY DAY. Believe me some of us ARE the Lone Ranger and back up is not frequently available.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:44:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By shindawia6: ... they have em in front of their copper cars because of the dash board cameras....
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Actually "they have em in front of their copper cars" because they're behind "them" when they pull "them" over - cameras are a relatively new accessory and not universally used.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 12:12:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By reconBYfire: LACK OF WEAPON RETENTION... IT is a sad thing to hear an officer is down;however, if you read most of the causes of death involving a suspect they are mostly killed by their own weapon. IS this a lack of training in self defense, kill or be killed, will to survive, weapons retention, and/or tactics and training? What are these officers lacking....???? God Bless them all...someone needs to improve on something...
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the stats I use in training recruits is about 14% of Officers are killed with their own gun. Still to many..
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 1:53:49 PM EDT
None of the several officers in my agency who were feloniously killed, were killed with their own weapon. I can only recall one such insident in So Cal recently, and that was a cop beaten to death with his own baton.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 4:04:23 PM EDT
Some of you are dead on, some are just out there. Police officers do regularly get killed with there own weapons. But that statistic only tells part of the story. I don't have hard numbers, but in reading officer down summaries from the FBI for some time, most of the time the officer loses control of their weapon, something else has precluded that. It can be being beat unconcious, strangled, injured either by blunt force or stabbing, and sometims the offender uses their own gun on the officer, and finishes that officer off with the officer's gun. My estimate is that "gun grabs" some 70-80% of the time are actually preceded by some of the attacks I have described. A straight out "gun grab" not proceeded by some other force is the minirity of the incidents. Other factors, type of holster, training, offender mindset, the departments use of force rules when dealing with a gun grab, and officer mindset. Some of my co-workers carry knives, just in case they are attacked by a gun grabber. I don't know that the dept. would be fond of defending an amputation. We are generally prohibited from using improvised impact weapons, ie flaslights. But in the past when a suspect tried to grab a shotgun, he got whacked in the head with a flashlight. The officer was afraid of being disciplined for the use of deadly force, with an improvised weapon. The dept didn't say boo, about that. But did have some question about how close the officer and offender were prior to the grab. Dept's may also have trouble if a weapon is fired during a gun grab. Others may say if the officer isn't completely in control of the weapon deadly force is TOTALLY reasonable as a response. It also may come down to tactics. You should never be within "wingspan"X2 with your gun out. If you still need it out, stay back until more help shows up. If you need to be closer, holster up. Practice holstering 1 handed, W/O looking at the holster. Next an LE magazine did a summary of an FBI study about cop killers. They found that they would often size up the officer prior to making an attack. Some admitted they stalked officers in public areas. One indicated he was at a parade loking to kill an officer, when he encountered one that he didn't want to mess with. That officer turned the tables and started watching the future cop killer, until he left the area. As officers you have to walk a fine line betwwen using as much force as apropriate, and using too much force. Officers that use less force than their peers, and are "people-persons" are MORE likely to get killed according to that FBI study. It's a much more complicated problem, and can not be solved with one fix, or one type of training.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:29:08 PM EDT
Originally Posted By FiveO: I hear what you are saying but you can not arrest someone inside a car can you? .
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Actually, I do. When alone, and when the vehicle has only one occupant, I handcuff the driver while he is in the car. I feel it's a bit safer. (Wont work with fatasses)
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:17:25 AM EDT
Originally Posted By sav308: We carry Smith .45 DOA's
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Do you carry enough body bags in the trunk?
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 5:46:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AZ-K9:
Originally Posted By FiveO: I hear what you are saying but you can not arrest someone inside a car can you? .
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Actually, I do. When alone, and when the vehicle has only one occupant, I handcuff the driver while he is in the car. I feel it's a bit safer. (Wont work with fatasses)
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That is interesting... Anything that throws the B/G off is good! I bet they are thinking "WTF, I was gonna run/fight when he got me out to cuff me!?!?!" I like it. Thanks! Even the simple unexpected things from us can really help. I did a passenger side approach one day when I worked for my prior agency. As I got to about his 5:00 he was looking over his left shoulder with his hand on a Cobray in his lap, I can only presume he was waiting for me... Well Mr .40 and a yelling Deputy from behind him and to his right caught hin off guard and changed his mind. He later said he was trying to unload it... Yeah, into my polyester clad ass. Tht one still gives me the willies. I believe I came real close that day.
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