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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:08:42 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fig_cX-XkAAwkOd?format=png&name=900x900 Fundamentally the Russian state doesn't want an armed polulace and Ukraine was handing out guns. The co-opted pro 2A parts of GD seemed to ignore this at the time. I've said it before but it was an eye opener to see people here complaining about the possibility of the handed out guns falling in to the hands of criminals  |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:30:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: jpk33]
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: UA, USA, and GB all sign a treaty guaranteeing RUS safety for giving up their nukes. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By trapsh00ter99: Originally Posted By R0N: And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? Then we walk away from said agreement like was done to Ukraine  Beat by circuits 
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:32:44 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By postpostban: That should be it's own thread. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By postpostban: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Redman556: Originally Posted By R0N: I can see the serious emotional attachment by many of you in the cause of a country that Is not the US and you push back against anything that does not meet the narrative I will say what I have said many times before I could care less of my ancestor’s homeland and it’s squabbles I put the US interest first and many of you are letting that emotional attachment put the interests of Ukraine ahead of Americas. It is in the interest of the US to see a traditional, nuclear armed, aggressive enemy destroyed, while using no US troops "officially" in or over the battlefield. This is a cheap method, both in money and blood, to destroy an enemy, that simply due to their size and Europe's need for it's oil, would be able to rebuild it's military over the next 20-30 years. It is also in our interests to only have to really worry about one strategic enemy, China, rather than two, Russia and China. This is a one time offer, at the lowest price we've ever seen or will ever see. Look at what we spent during the Cold War, and what we spent in men a money in conflicts we were involved in that the Soviets pushed in their expansion of global conquest. Vietnam, Korea, so many other smaller conflicts in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. There is no valid argument against our actions and support. There is a valid argument against kickbacks, waste, and fraud. And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? That should be it's own thread. ...but here we are having the same thread sliding conversation over and over again, with the same person. We get it. You don't support the war Ron. It is pointless to even say anything else because once again, "emotions" invalidate anyone's response. Look in the mirror before you talk about emotions, or is it just about being a smooth operator troll? 
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USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:35:08 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Yeah I add the people in UK to prayers every night. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:41:14 PM EDT
[#5]
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:43:28 PM EDT
[#6]
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Posted: 11/26/2022 5:47:53 PM EDT
[#7]
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:01:25 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: I can see the serious emotional attachment by many of you in the cause of a country that Is not the US and you push back against anything that does not meet the narrative I will say what I have said many times before I could care less of my ancestor’s homeland and it’s squabbles I put the US interest first and many of you are letting that emotional attachment put the interests of Ukraine ahead of Americas. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: Originally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By K0UA: Damn right! Fucken A right. R0N can take his opinion and..... This is what we need more of in this thread. Folks who contribute absolutely zero to the thread running off actual subject matter experts. There was something iff about R0ns whole spiel. I started to see some significant disconnects in logic. I can see the serious emotional attachment by many of you in the cause of a country that Is not the US and you push back against anything that does not meet the narrative I will say what I have said many times before I could care less of my ancestor’s homeland and it’s squabbles I put the US interest first and many of you are letting that emotional attachment put the interests of Ukraine ahead of Americas. I’m not sure how letting Ukraine loose is in our best interests. And I’m not Ukrainian. My family has been in USA since 1608 direct relative of ensign under Christopher Newport. We (USA and Nato) made promises, it’s more important to keep our promises to other nations than to worry about a brief gap in capabilities. You argued that the stingers were upgraded, I can assure you many of them were not, and all were to be pulled by 2025 at the latest. Also the CLUs and javelins I saw were straight A model 199x. Spoke to the guys pulling stores here in VA. We are not sending the best of the best. I’m also not referring to the Budapest memo. I’m referring to NATO contingencies and other enticements agreed to during the Minsk 2 deals. We promised Poland, Russia, and the Baltics a robust response if Russia went full retard. That’s how you keep your friends and allies. That’s how your deter wars. Throwing them under the bus or ignoring their concerns just leads to the dissolution of NATO and Countries like Russia starting wars. We lose Allie’s one by one, try fighting China with half the world on their side or completely compromised by tech integration etc. It’s fricking peanuts man. Covid payouts etc are the real economic albatross and other wasteful programs. Gaining a battle hardy ally in a post rebuilt Ukraine, Eastern Europe will be essential to preventing Chinas plans of slow hegemony. I have not met a person who studies geopolitics at any real level with half a brain who doesn’t see the layout of the pieces and best moves forward. You started in one area but shifted to other arguments that just didn’t make sense. If we’re going to turn isolationist like half Gd thinks is our constitutional mandate, we’ll it’s going to be one hell of ride and an even bigger hole we likely will never climb out of. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:02:45 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? Depends on how it happens. I doubt that Russia turns into Haiti or Yemen. Why didnt anyone worry about Nazi Germany falling if we beat them too bad? Or Japan. Maybe it will get ugly and the world will be less safe. Maybe. BUT, if Russia is allowed to illegally invade neighbors, annex territory and blackmail the world by threats of force, THEN THE WORLD IS LESS SAFE GUARANTEED. I think we had this "what if" happen back in 1991 when the USSR was MUCH more dangerous. Maybe Putin's Russia NEEDS TO FALL. Anyway the USA, Ukraine, NATO etc are reacting to Russia's aggression. If it gets too hot for Russia, they have the option to stop this war in 30 minutes flat. No one is invading Russia, murdering their civilians, or bombing their homes and hospitals. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:05:26 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By johnh57: I wonder if this is going to tie in to the American made components in Russian/ Iranian drones. Quote from further down the Twitter stream "The couple owned a number of companies in Sweden, including companies that dealt with ship and aircraft equipment, computers and IT services, program development and financing of commercial projects." There are probably many many little GRU run "mom and pop shops" around the West to get around sanctions. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:07:16 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AKaTom: No sir. I was referring to the picture where all the guys had frozen to death. Maybe I misunderstood what I read. FWIW I hope the Ukrainians drive the Russians all the way back to Moscow. Edit to add... wonder why the @ didn't work? Looks like you got my user name right. But I didn't get a notification. I don’t, and never have gotten them (the “@“ notifications). |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:07:57 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Redman556: Originally Posted By R0N: I can see the serious emotional attachment by many of you in the cause of a country that Is not the US and you push back against anything that does not meet the narrative I will say what I have said many times before I could care less of my ancestor’s homeland and it’s squabbles I put the US interest first and many of you are letting that emotional attachment put the interests of Ukraine ahead of Americas. It is in the interest of the US to see a traditional, nuclear armed, aggressive enemy destroyed, while using no US troops "officially" in or over the battlefield. This is a cheap method, both in money and blood, to destroy an enemy, that simply due to their size and Europe's need for it's oil, would be able to rebuild it's military over the next 20-30 years. It is also in our interests to only have to really worry about one strategic enemy, China, rather than two, Russia and China. This is a one time offer, at the lowest price we've ever seen or will ever see. Look at what we spent during the Cold War, and what we spent in men a money in conflicts we were involved in that the Soviets pushed in their expansion of global conquest. Vietnam, Korea, so many other smaller conflicts in South America, Africa, and the Middle East. There is no valid argument against our actions and support. There is a valid argument against kickbacks, waste, and fraud. And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? The next line of FSB security forces will take over. The whole OMG they’ll be nukes flying unless we let Russia win is bullshit. Russia has a pretty long history of traumatic power change. The nuke forces will button up and let the intelligence folks fight it out like they always do. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:09:59 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: Fundamentally the Russian state doesn't want an armed polulace and Ukraine was handing out guns. The co-opted pro 2A parts of GD seemed to ignore this at the time. I've said it before but it was an eye opener to see people here complaining about the possibility of the handed out guns falling in to the hands of criminals Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fig_cX-XkAAwkOd?format=png&name=900x900 Fundamentally the Russian state doesn't want an armed polulace and Ukraine was handing out guns. The co-opted pro 2A parts of GD seemed to ignore this at the time. I've said it before but it was an eye opener to see people here complaining about the possibility of the handed out guns falling in to the hands of criminals Controlling a spike in currency outflow and exchange rate pressure is my instinctive guess. For a number of reasons, maintaining currency stability is going to get very hard for them soon - or already is. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:19:52 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Actual high speed test footage near end of video.
There was a similar system on an UGV back in the day; 'Fire Ant'.  Fire Ant EFP Tank Killer Sting of the Fire Ant 
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:23:03 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FifdKXjXgAEAz8b?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FifdKXkWQAgaKI2?format=jpg&name=large https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FifaqZ4WQAM797O?format=jpg&name=large Its incredible to see this; of all the forms of warfare, I never expected a return to WW1 style trench warfare to make a comeback. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:25:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: sq40]
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: They have proven they cannot even take Ukraine, a nation they border. Much of threat was fantasy created by he IC, the same IC who now telling us we it’s important our defense to take them off board as a threat. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Redman556: Originally Posted By R0N: And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? We saw it happen all over Europe when the USSR fell. Nothing came of it, because they were more concerned about local survival than worldwide nuclear war. Many of the military personnel needed to make the system work, human safeties, the chain of command, no longer had an army to be deployed by and given orders to launch the nukes. Other things come into play as well. The USSR / Russia lost a lot of their nukes and military equipment and personnel. They were worried about internal revolution / power structure. The more troubling thing, is a Russia as a world power, an aggressive, murderous nation, that still has the power structure to effectively use them. Just due to this war as it is today, Russia is no longer a world power, which I don't think they really were since the late 80s. This war is just showing the world that they are more bark than bite. The correct result of this war, would be a Russia that is no longer a Regional power. They have proven they cannot even take Ukraine, a nation they border. Much of threat was fantasy created by he IC, the same IC who now telling us we it’s important our defense to take them off board as a threat. Do you feel Russia could use nuclear weapons against the US if they choose to? Wouldn’t it be better for Russia to have to expend their military budgetary resources rebuilding their army, taking away from their ability to maintain their nuclear arsenal? The nuclear arsenal is our primary threat. They only have so much money to expend on military assets, including that arsenal. Degrading their military and economy, by extension, degrades their nuclear capabilities, as well as their Anti-Aircraft and missile defense capabilities, naval capabilities and budget, etc. the reduction in their ability to wage nuclear war and project power is being seriously degraded by this conflict and sanctions. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:25:58 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: There was a similar system on an UGV back in the day; 'Fire Ant'.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syuu_g7svoESting of the Fire Ant https://i.redd.it/vyzy0m4hj7i41.jpg |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:30:18 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I could say the same thing about you, and just about everyone else in this thread. You and R0N both bring unique perspectives and valuable information, and that is what makes this thread great. But please, let's not pretend that this thread isn't mostly the yin to Russian Telegram's yang. The inability to see a flaw on the Ukrainian side, much less discuss it, is poison. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By gentlemanfarmer: There was something iff about R0ns whole spiel. I started to see some significant disconnects in logic. I could say the same thing about you, and just about everyone else in this thread. You and R0N both bring unique perspectives and valuable information, and that is what makes this thread great. But please, let's not pretend that this thread isn't mostly the yin to Russian Telegram's yang. The inability to see a flaw on the Ukrainian side, much less discuss it, is poison. What disconnects have have I shown? Curious truly? My course in this thing has been set in stone for 8 years. What the US does or doesn’t do or give has no bearing on my decisions or actions. When it was grim and most said Ukraine would fall, I went. It’s pretty simple for me, I keep my word. Whether it means financial ruin, death, or loss of property. The good part is from a moral standpoint it’s black and white. A lack of principles led us here. I’m biased because my friends have died etc but it doesn’t change the core of the issue. Russia invaded Ukraine, they are enemy of USA and an enemy to all our friends. They fucking deployed nerve agents and radioactive agents on British citizens. The list of Russians crimes is so long it could fill an old school encyclopedia. I just happened to experience that in a very visceral way. Their government is evil and they are fricking insane. Period |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:35:07 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Wow.. an indicator Belarus is about to enter the conflict? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fif-ZhEWIAAdg-o?format=jpg&name=900x900 Wow.. an indicator Belarus is about to enter the conflict? Well shit, I need to pack a cold weather bag again. This is exactly why Russia is a problem. I wonder if they casually deployed Novichuk in a perfume bottle again? Completely cool to let them take over the largest country in Europe over a lack of 155mm shells. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:35:29 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Does Europe have valid complaints? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: Europe is freaking out about the 'Inflation Reduction Act' and its $369 Billion in subsidies for US clean energy investment. Combined with US's much lower energy costs compared to EU because of Ukraine, its very likely that a large # of EU biz will move to the US, or shift its future investments into the US. Overall this is very good for the US economy, but may fracture the US-EU alliance against Russia to support Ukraine. https://www.politico.eu/article/joe-biden-ira-inflation-reduction-us-ignores-eu/ https://www.politico.eu/article/china-win-transatlantic-trade-war-us-europe-czech-minister-josef-sikela/ This is now coming to a head. The combination of the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA), and the fact that the US is profiting from both weapons and LNG sales to Europe, has made these euros quite ungrateful and pissy. Notably, this is coming from Western Europe, not the eastern belt next to Russia... https://www.politico.eu/article/vladimir-putin-war-europe-ukraine-gas-inflation-reduction-act-ira-joe-biden-rift-west-eu-accuses-us-of-profiting-from-war/ https://i.ibb.co/ZJkYhMr/Screen-Shot-2022-11-25-at-8-25-34-PM.png https://i.ibb.co/HDK2Jgb/Screen-Shot-2022-11-25-at-8-17-25-PM.png https://i.ibb.co/ckKW69R/Screen-Shot-2022-11-25-at-8-18-55-PM.png Does Europe have valid complaints? I'm not sure. They're complaining about the price the US is selling them gas for, but the article mentions many of those are based on contracts already held. Plus LNG is massively more expensive inherently then pipeline gas, so Europe is always going to pay more for energy then US would. The only gas I buy is butane for windproof lighters, so I cant speak to how LNG gas is priced for export. Their issue with the IRA is that it provides massive incentives to 'Buy American' especially for electric cars and other green tech. Thats awesome for the US; not great for BMW trying sell german made electric cars to the US. The US position seems to be - wisely - that the top priority is reducing incentives to 'Buy Chinese' for these various electric cars and components. (I'm all about this Buy American aspect.) Europe is freaking out however because they fear losing access to the US market, and do not want to spend the $ to offer their own companies subsidies and industrial policy to make them competitive. More broadly they are freaking out that the US is now zeroing in on its duel with China and not prioritizing Europe, or even thinking about it outside of containing Russia. |
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USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:38:47 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Depends on how it happens. I doubt that Russia turns into Haiti or Yemen. Why didnt anyone worry about Nazi Germany falling if we beat them too bad? Or Japan. Maybe it will get ugly and the world will be less safe. Maybe. BUT, if Russia is allowed to illegally invade neighbors, annex territory and blackmail the world by threats of force, THEN THE WORLD IS LESS SAFE GUARANTEED. I think we had this "what if" happen back in 1991 when the USSR was MUCH more dangerous. I think comparing conflict with a nuclear power is far different than a pre-nuclear one for obvious reasons. I don't think there should be any doubt what would have happened if Germany had nukes in 1918 or 1945. Comparing the current situation is also rather different from the fall of the USSR, as that fall was not actively happening during military conflict. I don't want Russia to win at all, and am not advocating handing over Ukraine to Russia or anything like that, but it is certainly a fair question to wonder about the end game here. How this ends absolutely needs to be considered by those "running the show". The unfortunate reality is if Putin falls during this war, it's likely, from my perspective, that whoever takes his place will be more hardline. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:42:54 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: This is what we need more of in this thread. Folks who contribute absolutely zero to the thread running off actual subject matter experts. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By K0UA: Damn right! Fucken A right. R0N can take his opinion and..... This is what we need more of in this thread. Folks who contribute absolutely zero to the thread running off actual subject matter experts. Yes, not good. There should be some allowance for divergence of opinion, and certainly we should avoid pitchfork brigades. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:44:57 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Do you feel Russia could use nuclear weapons against the US if they choose to? Wouldn’t it be better for Russia to have to expend their military budgetary resources rebuilding their army, taking away from their ability to maintain their nuclear arsenal? The nuclear arsenal is our primary threat. They only have so much money to expend on military assets, including that arsenal. Degrading their military and economy, by extension, degrades their nuclear capabilities, as well as their Anti-Aircraft and missile defense capabilities, naval capabilities and budget, etc. the reduction in their ability to wage nuclear war and project power is being seriously degraded by this conflict and sanctions. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By sq40: Originally Posted By R0N: Originally Posted By Redman556: Originally Posted By R0N: And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? We saw it happen all over Europe when the USSR fell. Nothing came of it, because they were more concerned about local survival than worldwide nuclear war. Many of the military personnel needed to make the system work, human safeties, the chain of command, no longer had an army to be deployed by and given orders to launch the nukes. Other things come into play as well. The USSR / Russia lost a lot of their nukes and military equipment and personnel. They were worried about internal revolution / power structure. The more troubling thing, is a Russia as a world power, an aggressive, murderous nation, that still has the power structure to effectively use them. Just due to this war as it is today, Russia is no longer a world power, which I don't think they really were since the late 80s. This war is just showing the world that they are more bark than bite. The correct result of this war, would be a Russia that is no longer a Regional power. They have proven they cannot even take Ukraine, a nation they border. Much of threat was fantasy created by he IC, the same IC who now telling us we it’s important our defense to take them off board as a threat. Do you feel Russia could use nuclear weapons against the US if they choose to? Wouldn’t it be better for Russia to have to expend their military budgetary resources rebuilding their army, taking away from their ability to maintain their nuclear arsenal? The nuclear arsenal is our primary threat. They only have so much money to expend on military assets, including that arsenal. Degrading their military and economy, by extension, degrades their nuclear capabilities, as well as their Anti-Aircraft and missile defense capabilities, naval capabilities and budget, etc. the reduction in their ability to wage nuclear war and project power is being seriously degraded by this conflict and sanctions. Very good point, now the doubters will just argue that they won’t be able to afford the nuc security and will end up with sarmats walking off into Iran NK etc. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:55:13 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: Fundamentally the Russian state doesn't want an armed polulace and Ukraine was handing out guns. The co-opted pro 2A parts of GD seemed to ignore this at the time. I've said it before but it was an eye opener to see people here complaining about the possibility of the handed out guns falling in to the hands of criminals Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By iggy1337: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fig_cX-XkAAwkOd?format=png&name=900x900 Fundamentally the Russian state doesn't want an armed polulace and Ukraine was handing out guns. The co-opted pro 2A parts of GD seemed to ignore this at the time. I've said it before but it was an eye opener to see people here complaining about the possibility of the handed out guns falling in to the hands of criminals Yeah that was one of the most WTF takes of this whole debacle here. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 6:58:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Yes, not good. There should be some allowance for divergence of opinion, and certainly we should avoid pitchfork brigades. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By Eat_Beef: Originally Posted By K0UA: Damn right! Fucken A right. R0N can take his opinion and..... This is what we need more of in this thread. Folks who contribute absolutely zero to the thread running off actual subject matter experts. Yes, not good. There should be some allowance for divergence of opinion, and certainly we should avoid pitchfork brigades. I definitely agree. Open discourse is the keystone of our society but I just hear a lot of chicken little the sky is falling and no real responses just pivots and whataboutism. There are plenty of “who gives a crap about Ukraine threads and reasons not to help Ukraine” this a thread about the war, what’s happening, how we can help. The current state of the battle front etc. it’s a distillation of war that I can check into and occasionally add knowledge or state real problems/challenges. Ive noticed a circular type logic to the anti Ukrainian crowd, some hide it better than others but I’m not sure your going to persuade any of the regulars here to throw up their hands and say “your right let’s just pull out or give up, whatever” I’m not sure what they bring to the table? Critically low on 155mm shells at the same time open source media started reporting it? Russia isn’t a threat ? They’re going to nuke us unless we let them win? Just my opinion |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:01:40 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Yeah that was one of the most WTF takes of this whole debacle here. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Originally Posted By iggy1337: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Fig_cX-XkAAwkOd?format=png&name=900x900 Fundamentally the Russian state doesn't want an armed polulace and Ukraine was handing out guns. The co-opted pro 2A parts of GD seemed to ignore this at the time. I've said it before but it was an eye opener to see people here complaining about the possibility of the handed out guns falling in to the hands of criminals Yeah that was one of the most WTF takes of this whole debacle here. Yeah I wish I had time and the access to really dig into the pro-Russian crowd on the site. I imagine you could find some interesting things out about the persons on the other end. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:02:23 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: We are doing NO such a thing. We ARE putting Americas interest first by assisting Ukraine. And we need to be doing more of it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: Originally Posted By R0N: I can see the serious emotional attachment by many of you in the cause of a country that Is not the US and you push back against anything that does not meet the narrative I will say what I have said many times before I could care less of my ancestor's homeland and it's squabbles I put the US interest first and many of you are letting that emotional attachment put the interests of Ukraine ahead of Americas. We are doing NO such a thing. We ARE putting Americas interest first by assisting Ukraine. And we need to be doing more of it. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:08:30 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: I'm not sure. They're complaining about the price the US is selling them gas for, but the article mentions many of those are based on contracts already held. Plus LNG is massively more expensive inherently then pipeline gas, so Europe is always going to pay more for energy then US would. The only gas I buy is butane for windproof lighters, so I cant speak to how LNG gas is priced for export. Their issue with the IRA is that it provides massive incentives to 'Buy American' especially for electric cars and other green tech. Thats awesome for the US; not great for BMW trying sell german made electric cars to the US. The US position seems to be - wisely - that the top priority is reducing incentives to 'Buy Chinese' for these various electric cars and components. (I'm all about this Buy American aspect.) Europe is freaking out however because they fear losing access to the US market, and do not want to spend the $ to offer their own companies subsidies and industrial policy to make them competitive. More broadly they are freaking out that the US is now zeroing in on its duel with China and not prioritizing Europe, or even thinking about it outside of containing Russia. As I understand it, and I'm nobody, the gas situation for Europe that they need for all of their manufacturing and home heating and pretty much everything, is really f****** bad. Really bad. They are going to be beyond desperate for gas to avoid Armageddon level economic meltdown. They've willingly gotten into this to help ukraine. If we are now making bank on selling them natural gas I can understand why they would be mad about it. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:11:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FibZnATWYAAEI7t?format=jpg&name=900x900
It's really nice to see all these countries donating their stuff to help Ukraine. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:13:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: As I understand it, and I'm nobody, the gas situation for Europe that they need for all of their manufacturing and home heating and pretty much everything, is really f****** bad. Really bad. They are going to be beyond desperate for gas to avoid Armageddon level economic meltdown. They've willingly gotten into this to help ukraine. If we are now making bank on selling them natural gas I can understand why they would be mad about it. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By spydercomonkey: I'm not sure. They're complaining about the price the US is selling them gas for, but the article mentions many of those are based on contracts already held. Plus LNG is massively more expensive inherently then pipeline gas, so Europe is always going to pay more for energy then US would. The only gas I buy is butane for windproof lighters, so I cant speak to how LNG gas is priced for export. Their issue with the IRA is that it provides massive incentives to 'Buy American' especially for electric cars and other green tech. Thats awesome for the US; not great for BMW trying sell german made electric cars to the US. The US position seems to be - wisely - that the top priority is reducing incentives to 'Buy Chinese' for these various electric cars and components. (I'm all about this Buy American aspect.) Europe is freaking out however because they fear losing access to the US market, and do not want to spend the $ to offer their own companies subsidies and industrial policy to make them competitive. More broadly they are freaking out that the US is now zeroing in on its duel with China and not prioritizing Europe, or even thinking about it outside of containing Russia. As I understand it, and I'm nobody, the gas situation for Europe that they need for all of their manufacturing and home heating and pretty much everything, is really f****** bad. Really bad. They are going to be beyond desperate for gas to avoid Armageddon level economic meltdown. They've willingly gotten into this to help ukraine. If we are now making bank on selling them natural gas I can understand why they would be mad about it. They were all about buying on the spot market when the price was down. If they'd have locked in some longer term contracts... |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:27:24 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By CharlieR: The "stockpiles" argument is broken. It is a red herring What are we spending in Ukraine? 155mm excalibur Javelin stinger Fill in the blank/choose your own adventure Taiwan is a big island 60 miles off the coast of China. A Taiwan scenario has muuuuuuch more in common with Operation Sealion then anything going on in the Ukraine. It will require TLAMs, TBM, theater air defense, and basically the USN and USAF. For years and years the two big blues have been arguing for the shift to the Pacific, 5th generation fighters, bigger share of the budget. Now they cant do their jobs because the US Army is depleting their stocks in a ground war in SE Europe? If the USAF and USN fail those stockages don't matter. If the USN and USAF succeed, those stockages don't matter. The idea that pulling the plug on the Ukrainians to save irrelevant stockages of class V ammunition will result in a better outcome simply isn't happening. Deterring the Chinese by burning up ammo killing Russians has a higher probability of success then saving our ammo, letting the Ukrainians fall, and then duking it ourselves in the S China Sea when deterrence fails. Two apples and oranges scenarios that would be executed by completely different types of forces using different weapons. Not 100% different, but close enough. I'm not thrilled if we go zero balance on 155mm, that's not a good thing, but the Chinese will roll or not roll based on their assessment of our will, and how much they get slaughtered in the Taiwan Strait We could go Fulda Gap it and plant a division of Army or Marines on the Island with a few nukes, then go to town in Ukraine. The fact that we aren't doing that has more to do with deterrence and outcomes then the ammo stockage red herring. Russia needs to get stomped. Russia needs to get made an example of. They need to keep accountability of their nukes but as this could be round two of the 21st Century version of the Arab-Israeli wars, it is cheaper in the long run to monkey stomp them. Rounds three, or four, really aren't what we want. Generally I agree. If we sent Taiwan 200% of our 155 and Stinger stocks, it would mean 0.00% difference. Although I am hearing that some countries have ordered US systems and have been waiting on delivery for years. There is a backlog somewhere and the situation in Ukraine is not helping. Still, all of the legit concerns aside, I support more aid to Ukraine. The upside potential is greater than the downside. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:29:34 PM EDT
[#32]
Around lunch time today, approximately 20 homes were damaged to different extents in Dnipro. Another pic...
 Attached File |
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USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:30:37 PM EDT
[#33]
Leaving the existing RUS institution in place and granting them a win here has very quantifiable consequences - opposed to the "potential" consequences of decapitating that institution that some people seem to be obsessed with...
Also have to echo that its just the right thing to do. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:36:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: SuperSixOne]
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: It's really nice to see all these countries donating their stuff to help Ukraine. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By stone-age: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
It's really nice to see all these countries donating their stuff to help Ukraine. Do they plan on powering them with generators? |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:48:19 PM EDT
[#35]
93rd Mechanized brigade lighting up the sky where there is darkness. Get some boys!
 Attached File Attached File Attached File Attached FileMaybe I'll paint mine to honor these guys.  Paint is in the mail. Finished the little pieces but may have gone blind.   Attached File |
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TX, USA
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Posted: 11/26/2022 7:52:49 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Europe is freaking out however because they fear losing access to the US market, and do not want to spend the $ to offer their own companies subsidies and industrial policy to make them competitive. Not exactly...they don't want to INCREASE the subsidies and protective trade barriers they already have in place to protect their industries to the point that the WTO can't pretend they're playing fair. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:03:08 PM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:05:40 PM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Easterner: 93rd Mechanized brigade lighting up the sky where there is darkness. Get some boys! https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221127_013309_jpg-2614925.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221127_014134_jpg-2614930.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221127_014113_jpg-2614932.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221127_014258_jpg-2614934.JPG Maybe I'll paint mine to honor these guys. Paint is in the mail. Finished the little pieces but may have gone blind. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/526834/IMG_20221127_013715_jpg-2614938.JPG That's a cool kit...I have built quite a few ICM and Masterbox |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:33:20 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: I can see the serious emotional attachment by many of you in the cause of a country that Is not the US and you push back against anything that does not meet the narrative I will say what I have said many times before I could care less of my ancestor’s homeland and it’s squabbles I put the US interest first and many of you are letting that emotional attachment put the interests of Ukraine ahead of Americas. You need to stop projecting. Ad hominem: Personal attacks, ie, "you're emotional"...that's you. Straw man arguments: The idea that we're not putting US interests first but you are. That's not the issue. Its insulting, really. Appeal to ignorance: The only people who are on board with your fallacies are those who cant discern the difference between how Ukraine is fighting and how Taiwan would be defended. Apples/Oranges. False dilemma: Either assist Ukraine OR save our ammo for Taiwan. Yeah, no. Appeal to Authority: You and your unnamed Mil friends agree with you, so there it is. Don't know them. Don't care. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:44:13 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Is that a Sagger??! I was wondering when they would show up.. Back in February I was going to import two sagger BRDMs. Keep one. Sell the other. On February 24th the seller went dark. I was pissed. Couple hours later I heard the war started. Those vehicles are in Ukraine now |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:44:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: Its incredible to see this; of all the forms of warfare, I never expected a return to WW1 style trench warfare to make a comeback. It didnt.       
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:46:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By governmentman: The firing of disarmed nuclear capable missiles is mind blowing. Depleting Ukraine's air defense makes little sense to me. The west will just keep resupplying. I'm thinking the real reason is political. Putin or someone high up orders X missiles launched, and this is the military's desperate attempt to obey the letter of the order. One of the benefits of nasams is the ability to use other missile types in common supply. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:53:50 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By R0N: And what happens when that nuclear armed government falls? Buy the physics packages from the unemployed former Russian Generals who have custody of them. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 8:55:09 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: Back in February I was going to import two sagger BRDMs. Keep one. Sell the other. On February 24th the seller went dark. I was pissed. Couple hours later I heard the war started. Those vehicles are in Ukraine now The Sagger BRDMs are cool.. A BRDM I built awhile back   |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:06:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: DK-Prof]
[#45]
[Deleted]
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:07:43 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dog1: The Sagger BRDMs are cool.. A BRDM I built awhile back https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/9749/20220404_191526-2337914.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/9749/20220404_191444-2337917.jpg Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Dog1: Originally Posted By fadedsun: Back in February I was going to import two sagger BRDMs. Keep one. Sell the other. On February 24th the seller went dark. I was pissed. Couple hours later I heard the war started. Those vehicles are in Ukraine now The Sagger BRDMs are cool.. A BRDM I built awhile back https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/9749/20220404_191526-2337914.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/9749/20220404_191444-2337917.jpg That came out really nice!
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:08:31 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zx2man: I grew up in Alaska homesteading. Lived in Tok the first years, 90 miles west of Yukon. Got 60 below without wind-chill. Then moved down to Mat-su Valley area where it was more modest. But still avg winter day was 20ish and cold streaks of 20-30 below was common. COLDEST I have ever been? North Carolina at camp Mackall in early winter 2004. Barely above freezing, pouring rain. 2nd coldest? 2005 Iraq near Syrian-Turkey borders pulling over watch. Temp was around 20-25 at night. Situation dictates, is it wet cold? Dry cold? Are you dressed for it? Are you static? If you are in Wyoming, Montana, Alaska etc and you live there, you dress for it, you prepare for it, you have a warm house or car to retreat to, got hand hand warmers or other resources. My point is a simple temp number does not always explain the circumstances. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By zx2man: Originally Posted By 307Patriot: It's colder in Wyoming. lol I grew up in Alaska homesteading. Lived in Tok the first years, 90 miles west of Yukon. Got 60 below without wind-chill. Then moved down to Mat-su Valley area where it was more modest. But still avg winter day was 20ish and cold streaks of 20-30 below was common. COLDEST I have ever been? North Carolina at camp Mackall in early winter 2004. Barely above freezing, pouring rain. 2nd coldest? 2005 Iraq near Syrian-Turkey borders pulling over watch. Temp was around 20-25 at night. Situation dictates, is it wet cold? Dry cold? Are you dressed for it? Are you static? If you are in Wyoming, Montana, Alaska etc and you live there, you dress for it, you prepare for it, you have a warm house or car to retreat to, got hand hand warmers or other resources. My point is a simple temp number does not always explain the circumstances. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:09:25 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fadedsun: One of the benefits of nasams is the ability to use other missile types in common supply. Along with the HAWK, IRIS-T, Aspide, and whatever S-300 they have left or manage to capture, Ukrainian airspace is going to be a tough nut to crack. They still need something cheaper to shoot down the Iranian drone swarms. What would really make Putin shit a brick is if one of the Aegis BMD or THAAD systems that Poland and Romania have somehow finds is way into Ukraine. |
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:09:47 PM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 11/26/2022 9:20:08 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KELBEAST: The pictures from the 2122 European war are probably going to look the same too Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KELBEAST: Originally Posted By snakes19: These are insane pictures to be seeing in 2022 from an European war The pictures from the 2122 European war are probably going to look the same too Nah, that one will be chrome-plated robots standing amidst mountains of skulls. |
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