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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:43:11 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTF: Is this due to lack of power/torque? and why would it be desirable? How is that used? ground effect hover ...... what is that, ~ 20 FT above ground level Going to answer these in reverse order because it just flows better. So a helicopter remains in ground effect(IGE) up to a distance that is roughly equivalent to its rotor diameter, for an Apache it's roughly around 50ft. Without nerding out on it and going through a long ass spiel on aerodynamics the rotor is more efficient in producing lift while IGE and requires less power to remain at a hover. Hovering above that 50ft (or whatever the rotor diameter is) is called hovering out of ground effect (OGE) and requires typically 20% or more power applied to maintain that hover. So if I'm hovering at say 64% torque IGE it would be closer to 84% if I was at an OGE hover. Important to note is that in a helicopter you don't always have 100% torque available due to factors such as high temperature, high density altitude, and high gross weight of the helicopter (the inverse to this is also true.) Sometimes you've got 106% torque available, sometimes you've got 86% torque available. It's all dependent on loadout and environmental conditions. The ability to hover OGE is desirable because it lets you use the strengths of the helicopter platform (vertical climb and descent) to the fullest extent. If I don't have the power to hover OGE I have to stay above what is called Velocity Safe Dual Engine (VSDE) or if I'm a single engine helicopter Velocity Safe Single Engine(VSSE.) Both VSDE and VSSE are a minimum airspeed that if I don't maintain at or above that speed the helicopter will be in a descent until one of three things happens. Either I get my airspeed back above the VSDE/VSSE, I am back in ground effect, or the helicopter hits the ground. If I can hover OGE I can move a lot lower and a lot slower to get into a position that I can shoot the enemy from. If I'm working as a team of 2 helicopters, one helicopter can come up from behind the trees and hold a stable stationary firing position and cover their wingman while they maneuver forward. We call that bounding overwatch. If I've got a sensor mounted on top of my rotor mast like our fire control radar(FCR) it allows me to just get the FCR above the trees so that way I'm not exposing my whole aircraft to enemy fire and I'm presenting them with a smaller target. The Hind due to both how it was designed aerodynamically (the wings on it generate a significant amount of lift for the airframe) and the engines it's equipped with is incapable of hovering OGE once it is fully loaded out for combat operations, they just don't have the max torque available. It's inherent in the design of the weapon system as well. The earlier models all had fixed forward guns with limited elevation adjustment rather than turrets, the prevalence of rocket pods used in a saturation fire manner, and the use of wire guided missiles because the aircraft as designed was meant to strafe like a fixed wing and take targets head on. It essentially functions as a very slow fixed wing asset that can utilize unimproved surfaces rather than a helicopter. Hope that answers your questions and hope the acronym explanation style I used was to everyone's liking. |
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IL, USA
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:45:00 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RIP-Yataski: Leveraging this country's future even moar than already leveraged is totes worth it if it kills just one orc... ...ukraine bros: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/350291/69B2C3DD-AB51-405D-AC94-11ABC7DC9160-2409960.gif 
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:46:24 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By elcope: https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/military-acronyms.html Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By elcope: Originally Posted By TheHunstman: Originally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By K0UA: People that use specific acronyms have no desire to communicate to a wider audience. They only want to communicate to those in the narrow group that know and understand the acronyms. So don't worry, he had no interest in communicating with us. Move along, nothing to see here. Or it could be that in a thread about an ongoing war and discussing topics like military strategy the person using the acronym might expect just a basic level of common knowledge. I see now that was a mistake. I'll make sure to break it down Barney style for you in the future. Lighten up Francis. A lot of non-military members ask every now and then to explain the acronyms being tossed about. He could have asked nicer but come on, this isn't a .mil subforum. https://abbreviations.yourdictionary.com/articles/military-acronyms.html Not directed at you in particular elcope https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogertrapp/2016/02/24/why-you-should-avoid-jargon-and-talk-like-a-leader/?sh=4ca4bd7b2be6 https://www.inc.com/jeff-steen/why-you-should-stop-using-acronyms-right-now.html Now, back to watching the Ukes smoke the Rashists! |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:57:03 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Going to answer these in reverse order because it just flows better. So a helicopter remains in ground effect(IGE) up to a distance that is roughly equivalent to its rotor diameter, for an Apache it's roughly around 50ft. Without nerding out on it and going through a long ass spiel on aerodynamics the rotor is more efficient in producing lift while IGE and requires less power to remain at a hover. Hovering above that 50ft (or whatever the rotor diameter is) is called hovering out of ground effect (OGE) and requires typically 20% or more power applied to maintain that hover. So if I'm hovering at say 64% torque IGE it would be closer to 84% if I was at an OGE hover. Important to note is that in a helicopter you don't always have 100% torque available due to factors such as high temperature, high density altitude, and high gross weight of the helicopter (the inverse to this is also true.) Sometimes you've got 106% torque available, sometimes you've got 86% torque available. It's all dependent on loadout and environmental conditions. The ability to hover OGE is desirable because it lets you use the strengths of the helicopter platform (vertical climb and descent) to the fullest extent. If I don't have the power to hover OGE I have to stay above what is called Velocity Safe Dual Engine (VSDE) or if I'm a single engine helicopter Velocity Safe Single Engine(VSSE.) Both VSDE and VSSE are a minimum airspeed that if I don't maintain at or above that speed the helicopter will be in a descent until one of three things happens. Either I get my airspeed back above the VSDE/VSSE, I am back in ground effect, or the helicopter hits the ground. If I can hover OGE I can move a lot lower and a lot slower to get into a position that I can shoot the enemy from. If I'm working as a team of 2 helicopters, one helicopter can come up from behind the trees and hold a stable stationary firing position and cover their wingman while they maneuver forward. We call that bounding overwatch. If I've got a sensor mounted on top of my rotor mast like our fire control radar(FCR) it allows me to just get the FCR above the trees so that way I'm not exposing my whole aircraft to enemy fire and I'm presenting them with a smaller target. The Hind due to both how it was designed aerodynamically (the wings on it generate a significant amount of lift for the airframe) and the engines it's equipped with is incapable of hovering OGE once it is fully loaded out for combat operations, they just don't have the max torque available. It's inherent in the design of the weapon system as well. The earlier models all had fixed forward guns with limited elevation adjustment rather than turrets, the prevalence of rocket pods used in a saturation fire manner, and the use of wire guided missiles because the aircraft as designed was meant to strafe like a fixed wing and take targets head on. It essentially functions as a very slow fixed wing asset that can utilize unimproved surfaces rather than a helicopter. Hope that answers your questions and hope the acronym explanation style I used was to everyone's liking. Outstanding. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 10:58:43 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Complete GoPro of a Terrible Recon Mission in Ukraine  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSfEEdV76kQuote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n: Complete GoPro of a Terrible Recon Mission in Ukraine Complete GoPro of a Terrible Recon Mission in Ukraine Another mission from my GoPro in Ukraine. Artillery, bad intel, drones, and Russian FO's. It's a good one, hope you got something from this one! Instagram: CivDivision https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GJSfEEdV76k
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:00:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#6]
Maia Sandu: "The Ukrainian flag is waving again above Kherson. The Republic of Moldova stands in solidarity with the thousands of brave people in Kherson" https://radiochisinau.md/maia-sandu--steagul-ucrainean-flutura-din-nou-deasupra-hersonului-republica-moldova-se-solidarizeaza-cu-miile-de-oameni-curajosi-din-herson---170739.html  |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:09:22 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jungatheart: Man, please ease up on the acronyms. I have no idea what you just tried to say. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:17:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: HDLS]
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: I think a lot of is the fact that ukraine is fighting is fighting in their own towns, As much as they want to kill a shit load of retreating Russians I doubt they want to blow up their own house and kill grandma and grandpa to do it Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ricko1: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By Eat_Beef: I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but... I remember back in the Kharkiv offensive, thinking, man, the Ukes are really putting it to them, they must be killing thousands. But the official numbers never got that high, maybe the 6-700 range. I had the same thought on this Kherson run. We're hearing that it's a total rout, there are 20k RF soldiers with no chance of escape, they're getting slaughtered by arty. Then the numbers come in and it's 7-800 a day. I'm sorry, but it's a colossal failure that they let that many enemy soldiers escape across a river without cutting them a whole lot deeper than they did. Either there is a whole lot of wishful thinking going on with the major twitter guys referenced in this thread, or UA is barely muddling through. This is twice now that everyone is declaring a rout, and the official numbers are up 2-% from an average day. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're advancing, but this just doesn't add up. Either there were a lot less RF forces on the right bank than we were told, or UA did a poor job of roughing them up on their way out. Those guys are going to be a LOT harder to deal with on the left bank than they were on the right. First I think it's important to appreciate that the troop density is not at WWI/WW2 levels. Second, regarding Kharkiv, it was a thinly held region of the front which is why the UA attacked there. Third, the UA has shown every indication in its offensives that it plays it safe, which IMO is absolutely right. The first goal of the weaker power in an asymmetric war is to not lose. Ukraine isn't going to take high-risk/high-reward chances. They don't need to. Therefore if the Russians drop their shit and run, as at Kharkiv and Lyman, the UA probably isn't going to catch them. This is speculation on my part but IMO it's entirely possible there was an "agreement" over Russian withdrawal from Kherson. Russia agrees to not make it any more costly for Ukraine that it's already been, not to wreck the city, and Ukraine agrees not to fuck with their withdrawal too much. It's a win-win although it's a far bigger strategic win for Ukraine. Neither side can admit to that but I can absolutely see it happening. Or they’re just too busy stacking and not counting.  Getting hyper-focused on and judging them on a body count, or lack of, is silly anyway. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:32:00 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Willmar: Not directed at you in particular elcope https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogertrapp/2016/02/24/why-you-should-avoid-jargon-and-talk-like-a-leader/?sh=4ca4bd7b2be6 https://www.inc.com/jeff-steen/why-you-should-stop-using-acronyms-right-now.html Now, back to watching the Ukes smoke the Rashists! That’s all well and good in a general audience. I detest inside use of terms-of-art, even in my own fields of specialty. BUT: this thread has, for a long time, dealt with many wide and varied, highly technical aspects of policy, weapons, strategy, etc. The use of acronyms has never been a serious impediment and the tedious spelling out of them would really be equally distracting to a number of others. Everyone will find a moment they don’t recognize something - and just get used to doing a bit of homework here and there. If there were a quick and easy way to look up acronyms, like say the internet, handy, you could completely work around this. ;) Google is your friend when you need a quick reference. If there’s information I want, on a subject I’m not immediately familiar, I don’t mind doing the homework instead of asking others to do it for me. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:40:35 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Erno86: Any chance that NATO could supply the Ukrainian Forces with a pontoon bridge long enough to span the Dnipro River? They need to bring up some of that Bailey crap. |
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:42:31 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jungatheart: Man, please ease up on the acronyms. I have no idea what you just tried to say. IKR 
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Posted: 11/12/2022 11:55:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#12]
Not terribly impressive, but multiple sources.
Saw this, thought "no way", then saw it somewhere else, so gonna post. I don't know man, you tell me.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:00:34 AM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: That’s all well and good in a general audience. I detest inside use of terms-of-art, even in my own fields of specialty. BUT: this thread has, for a long time, dealt with many wide and varied, highly technical aspects of policy, weapons, strategy, etc. The use of acronyms has never been a serious impediment and the tedious spelling out of them would really be equally distracting to a number of others. Everyone will find a moment they don’t recognize something - and just get used to doing a bit of homework here and there. If there were a quick and easy way to look up acronyms, like say the internet, handy, you could completely work around this. ;) Google is your friend when you need a quick reference. If there’s information I want, on a subject I’m not immediately familiar, I don’t mind doing the homework instead of asking others to do it for me. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jack67: Originally Posted By Willmar: Not directed at you in particular elcope https://www.forbes.com/sites/rogertrapp/2016/02/24/why-you-should-avoid-jargon-and-talk-like-a-leader/?sh=4ca4bd7b2be6 https://www.inc.com/jeff-steen/why-you-should-stop-using-acronyms-right-now.html Now, back to watching the Ukes smoke the Rashists! That’s all well and good in a general audience. I detest inside use of terms-of-art, even in my own fields of specialty. BUT: this thread has, for a long time, dealt with many wide and varied, highly technical aspects of policy, weapons, strategy, etc. The use of acronyms has never been a serious impediment and the tedious spelling out of them would really be equally distracting to a number of others. Everyone will find a moment they don’t recognize something - and just get used to doing a bit of homework here and there. If there were a quick and easy way to look up acronyms, like say the internet, handy, you could completely work around this. ;) Google is your friend when you need a quick reference. If there’s information I want, on a subject I’m not immediately familiar, I don’t mind doing the homework instead of asking others to do it for me. I’m sorry, I thought this was a gun forum consisting of gun enthusiasts, not a military terminology forum. The odd abbreviation or acronym here and there are to be expected by experts in selected fields of endeavor. That said, when the text becomes a Greek, some adjustment for the reader should be considered. Having to translate alphabet soup via Google because the writer believes the reader should do his homework does a disservice to general readers (of which I am one). |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:00:53 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Eat_Beef: I know I'm going to get flamed for this, but... I remember back in the Kharkiv offensive, thinking, man, the Ukes are really putting it to them, they must be killing thousands. But the official numbers never got that high, maybe the 6-700 range. I had the same thought on this Kherson run. We're hearing that it's a total rout, there are 20k RF soldiers with no chance of escape, they're getting slaughtered by arty. Then the numbers come in and it's 7-800 a day. I'm sorry, but it's a colossal failure that they let that many enemy soldiers escape across a river without cutting them a whole lot deeper than they did. Either there is a whole lot of wishful thinking going on with the major twitter guys referenced in this thread, or UA is barely muddling through. This is twice now that everyone is declaring a rout, and the official numbers are up 2-% from an average day. Don't get me wrong, I'm glad they're advancing, but this just doesn't add up. Either there were a lot less RF forces on the right bank than we were told, or UA did a poor job of roughing them up on their way out. Those guys are going to be a LOT harder to deal with on the left bank than they were on the right. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:01:37 AM EDT
[#15]
Thread
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:09:22 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: People that use specific acronyms have no desire to communicate to a wider audience. They only want to communicate to those in the narrow group that know and understand the acronyms. So don't worry, he had no interest in communicating with us. Move along, nothing to see here. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: Originally Posted By jungatheart: Man, please ease up on the acronyms. I have no idea what you just tried to say. People that use specific acronyms have no desire to communicate to a wider audience. They only want to communicate to those in the narrow group that know and understand the acronyms. So don't worry, he had no interest in communicating with us. Move along, nothing to see here. I don't mind a tiny bit of legwork to get a better understanding of what some of our insiders have to say. Especially those that write well and provide a unique insight |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:16:32 AM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Or it could be that in a thread about an ongoing war and discussing topics like military strategy the person using the acronym might expect just a basic level of common knowledge. I see now that was a mistake. I'll make sure to break it down Barney style for you in the future. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By K0UA: People that use specific acronyms have no desire to communicate to a wider audience. They only want to communicate to those in the narrow group that know and understand the acronyms. So don't worry, he had no interest in communicating with us. Move along, nothing to see here. Or it could be that in a thread about an ongoing war and discussing topics like military strategy the person using the acronym might expect just a basic level of common knowledge. I see now that was a mistake. I'll make sure to break it down Barney style for you in the future. Please don't, this is one of the few threads that is largely populated by adults who DON'T get their feelings hurt because they have to pause and think for a few seconds. Though obviously there are a few who do and have absolutely mastered a writing tone that screams "I got the shit kicked out of me all through high school." |
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USA
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:16:58 AM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Weird. My internet is acting strange, been having trouble with double posts and other strange shit. Need to reset my crap Might want to do some scans of your system. Someone mentioned picking up some malware last week and suspected a link in this thread. No one else mentioned anything so I dismissed it but better safe than sorry if you're having issues. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:28:17 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By medic9: Please don't, this is one of the few threads that is largely populated by adults who DON'T get their feelings hurt because they have to pause and think for a few seconds. Though obviously there are a few who do and have absolutely mastered a writing tone that screams "I got the shit kicked out of me all through high school." It's a non issue. If you want an example of me "breaking it down Barney style" read my post at the top of this page. I'm just bewildered by the amount of folks that are getting wrapped around the axle about it when all of the original players have already discussed it and come to an amicable agreement in this thread. It's like people are only reading the initial exchange and just throwing comments in without getting the whole context. Honestly if we could just move on from the whole acronym thing and get back on topic it'd be great. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:35:31 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Willmar: I’m sorry, I thought this was a gun forum consisting of gun enthusiasts, not a military terminology forum. … This is a live-war, military-focused thread. It’s not a gun thread. Use Google, get over it, let people talk. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:43:13 AM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Going to answer these in reverse order because it just flows better. So a helicopter remains in ground effect(IGE) up to a distance that is roughly equivalent to its rotor diameter, for an Apache it's roughly around 50ft. Without nerding out on it and going through a long ass spiel on aerodynamics the rotor is more efficient in producing lift while IGE and requires less power to remain at a hover. Hovering above that 50ft (or whatever the rotor diameter is) is called hovering out of ground effect (OGE) and requires typically 20% or more power applied to maintain that hover. So if I'm hovering at say 64% torque IGE it would be closer to 84% if I was at an OGE hover. Important to note is that in a helicopter you don't always have 100% torque available due to factors such as high temperature, high density altitude, and high gross weight of the helicopter (the inverse to this is also true.) Sometimes you've got 106% torque available, sometimes you've got 86% torque available. It's all dependent on loadout and environmental conditions. The ability to hover OGE is desirable because it lets you use the strengths of the helicopter platform (vertical climb and descent) to the fullest extent. If I don't have the power to hover OGE I have to stay above what is called Velocity Safe Dual Engine (VSDE) or if I'm a single engine helicopter Velocity Safe Single Engine(VSSE.) Both VSDE and VSSE are a minimum airspeed that if I don't maintain at or above that speed the helicopter will be in a descent until one of three things happens. Either I get my airspeed back above the VSDE/VSSE, I am back in ground effect, or the helicopter hits the ground. If I can hover OGE I can move a lot lower and a lot slower to get into a position that I can shoot the enemy from. If I'm working as a team of 2 helicopters, one helicopter can come up from behind the trees and hold a stable stationary firing position and cover their wingman while they maneuver forward. We call that bounding overwatch. If I've got a sensor mounted on top of my rotor mast like our fire control radar(FCR) it allows me to just get the FCR above the trees so that way I'm not exposing my whole aircraft to enemy fire and I'm presenting them with a smaller target. The Hind due to both how it was designed aerodynamically (the wings on it generate a significant amount of lift for the airframe) and the engines it's equipped with is incapable of hovering OGE once it is fully loaded out for combat operations, they just don't have the max torque available. It's inherent in the design of the weapon system as well. The earlier models all had fixed forward guns with limited elevation adjustment rather than turrets, the prevalence of rocket pods used in a saturation fire manner, and the use of wire guided missiles because the aircraft as designed was meant to strafe like a fixed wing and take targets head on. It essentially functions as a very slow fixed wing asset that can utilize unimproved surfaces rather than a helicopter. Hope that answers your questions and hope the acronym explanation style I used was to everyone's liking. That was a great explanation for a layman such as myself who has nearly no knowledge of helicopters and their operations. Thank you! |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:48:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#22]
Russian aircraft HIT
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:54:40 AM EDT
[#23]
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2022/11/12/zelenskyy-says-russia-destroyed-khersons-critical-infrastructure
Russian forces destroyed critical infrastructure in the southern city of Kherson before their withdrawal, Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy has said, as Kyiv’s military retook control of the southeastern city. “Before fleeing from Kherson, the occupiers destroyed all the critical infrastructure: communications, water, heat, electricity,” Zelenskyy stated in a video address on Saturday. Officials also said humanitarian aid was being delivered to the city’s residents. “The situation is very difficult because Russia created intolerable conditions for the people to stay and live in Kherson. And before the retreat of Russian troops, Russia had deliberately tried to create a humanitarian catastrophe,” said Oleksandr Merezhko, the chair of the Ukrainian Parliament’s Committee on Foreign Policy. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:55:17 AM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Going to answer these in reverse order because it just flows better. So a helicopter remains in ground effect(IGE) up to a distance that is roughly equivalent to its rotor diameter, for an Apache it's roughly around 50ft. Without nerding out on it and going through a long ass spiel on aerodynamics the rotor is more efficient in producing lift while IGE and requires less power to remain at a hover. Hovering above that 50ft (or whatever the rotor diameter is) is called hovering out of ground effect (OGE) and requires typically 20% or more power applied to maintain that hover. So if I'm hovering at say 64% torque IGE it would be closer to 84% if I was at an OGE hover. Important to note is that in a helicopter you don't always have 100% torque available due to factors such as high temperature, high density altitude, and high gross weight of the helicopter (the inverse to this is also true.) Sometimes you've got 106% torque available, sometimes you've got 86% torque available. It's all dependent on loadout and environmental conditions. The ability to hover OGE is desirable because it lets you use the strengths of the helicopter platform (vertical climb and descent) to the fullest extent. If I don't have the power to hover OGE I have to stay above what is called Velocity Safe Dual Engine (VSDE) or if I'm a single engine helicopter Velocity Safe Single Engine(VSSE.) Both VSDE and VSSE are a minimum airspeed that if I don't maintain at or above that speed the helicopter will be in a descent until one of three things happens. Either I get my airspeed back above the VSDE/VSSE, I am back in ground effect, or the helicopter hits the ground. If I can hover OGE I can move a lot lower and a lot slower to get into a position that I can shoot the enemy from. If I'm working as a team of 2 helicopters, one helicopter can come up from behind the trees and hold a stable stationary firing position and cover their wingman while they maneuver forward. We call that bounding overwatch. If I've got a sensor mounted on top of my rotor mast like our fire control radar(FCR) it allows me to just get the FCR above the trees so that way I'm not exposing my whole aircraft to enemy fire and I'm presenting them with a smaller target. The Hind due to both how it was designed aerodynamically (the wings on it generate a significant amount of lift for the airframe) and the engines it's equipped with is incapable of hovering OGE once it is fully loaded out for combat operations, they just don't have the max torque available. It's inherent in the design of the weapon system as well. The earlier models all had fixed forward guns with limited elevation adjustment rather than turrets, the prevalence of rocket pods used in a saturation fire manner, and the use of wire guided missiles because the aircraft as designed was meant to strafe like a fixed wing and take targets head on. It essentially functions as a very slow fixed wing asset that can utilize unimproved surfaces rather than a helicopter. Hope that answers your questions and hope the acronym explanation style I used was to everyone's liking. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By JTF: Is this due to lack of power/torque? and why would it be desirable? How is that used? ground effect hover ...... what is that, ~ 20 FT above ground level Going to answer these in reverse order because it just flows better. So a helicopter remains in ground effect(IGE) up to a distance that is roughly equivalent to its rotor diameter, for an Apache it's roughly around 50ft. Without nerding out on it and going through a long ass spiel on aerodynamics the rotor is more efficient in producing lift while IGE and requires less power to remain at a hover. Hovering above that 50ft (or whatever the rotor diameter is) is called hovering out of ground effect (OGE) and requires typically 20% or more power applied to maintain that hover. So if I'm hovering at say 64% torque IGE it would be closer to 84% if I was at an OGE hover. Important to note is that in a helicopter you don't always have 100% torque available due to factors such as high temperature, high density altitude, and high gross weight of the helicopter (the inverse to this is also true.) Sometimes you've got 106% torque available, sometimes you've got 86% torque available. It's all dependent on loadout and environmental conditions. The ability to hover OGE is desirable because it lets you use the strengths of the helicopter platform (vertical climb and descent) to the fullest extent. If I don't have the power to hover OGE I have to stay above what is called Velocity Safe Dual Engine (VSDE) or if I'm a single engine helicopter Velocity Safe Single Engine(VSSE.) Both VSDE and VSSE are a minimum airspeed that if I don't maintain at or above that speed the helicopter will be in a descent until one of three things happens. Either I get my airspeed back above the VSDE/VSSE, I am back in ground effect, or the helicopter hits the ground. If I can hover OGE I can move a lot lower and a lot slower to get into a position that I can shoot the enemy from. If I'm working as a team of 2 helicopters, one helicopter can come up from behind the trees and hold a stable stationary firing position and cover their wingman while they maneuver forward. We call that bounding overwatch. If I've got a sensor mounted on top of my rotor mast like our fire control radar(FCR) it allows me to just get the FCR above the trees so that way I'm not exposing my whole aircraft to enemy fire and I'm presenting them with a smaller target. The Hind due to both how it was designed aerodynamically (the wings on it generate a significant amount of lift for the airframe) and the engines it's equipped with is incapable of hovering OGE once it is fully loaded out for combat operations, they just don't have the max torque available. It's inherent in the design of the weapon system as well. The earlier models all had fixed forward guns with limited elevation adjustment rather than turrets, the prevalence of rocket pods used in a saturation fire manner, and the use of wire guided missiles because the aircraft as designed was meant to strafe like a fixed wing and take targets head on. It essentially functions as a very slow fixed wing asset that can utilize unimproved surfaces rather than a helicopter. Hope that answers your questions and hope the acronym explanation style I used was to everyone's liking. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:55:30 AM EDT
[#25]
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PA, USA
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:57:35 AM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Outstanding. Excellent! My take away... ability to move LOWER and SLOWER at altitudes of 50 FT or less. Didn't realize helicopters operated that close to the ground. All by seat-of-the pants? No time to scan instruments? Thank-you. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 12:59:09 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: Not terribly impressive, but multiple sources.
Saw this, thought "no way", then saw it somewhere else, so gonna post. I don't know man, you tell me.
That appears to be a butchered Chinese air rifle. I have an unmolested example that I’ll compare it with tomorrow. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:01:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#28]
Interesting load-bearing contraption
(Was trying to find a video, which on TG is entitled "wake the katsap with a stick") |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:12:13 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:14:16 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SoCalExile: How do the Mi-28 and Ka-52 stack up to western helis? I think early on with some of the Russian propaganda Ka-52 attack vids someone mentioned there was a lot of vibration with them. We also haven't seen much of the Havoc other than one getting hit by a suspected Starstreak. In person I've only seen export models of both and I've only ever really gotten a good look at the MI-28 when I was visiting the Iraqi flight school at Taji. The KA-52 I got a briefing on and essentially did a walk around on without getting into the cockpit. With that being said these are my assessments. The MI-28 is built like a tank. It's extremely heavily armored (for a helicopter) to the point that it's frankly impressive. The turreted gun is a huge plus and a divergence from the KA-52's fixed gun that they went with for some reason I'll never understand. I would say it's about on par or slightly better than an A model Apache (Dessert storm version) but falls well short of a D model (Early-Mid Iraq/Afghanistan). The KA-52 I can really only speak of from a design standpoint and what I've seen videos of it being employed. As mentioned earlier the fixed gun makes zero sense to me on a modern gunship with the ability to hover out of ground effect. I'm dubious about the ejection seats usefulness at the altitude the aircraft should be getting employed at. Common to both: Fire control systems are easily 20+ years behind what we currently have be that fire control radars, weapon sights, thermal capabilities, etc. Survivability equipment like missile early warning systems and radar/laser detectors are 20+ years behind us. That being said they're not bad pieces of equipment. Given the choice I'd take an MI-28 over an ALAT or a TIGER if I wasn't flying an Apache. The main issue that Russian rotary wing attack aviation is running into is that they're employing their assets as if it's the cold war and technology didn't advance since it ended. That and their lack of precision weapons systems is really hamstringing their effectiveness. If they're just needing a low level rocket platform they should be using their MI-24/35's or hell even their MI-8's. Using their more modern systems in the same role and the consequent losses they're taking from it blows my mind at the waste of combat power. It's good for the Ukrainians though. 
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:14:38 AM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:22:51 AM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ludder093: fuck. Can not condone that. Yeah, if you're gonna defect from Wagner and go back out onto the field....maybe don't oversell it.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:23:48 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: There is still plenty of support for Putin among the young and old. The last lady seems to have her head screwed on straight. There is an actual brain in there not just a pretty face. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnWIxpneDb8Every video from there looks like it's from the 80s. It's strange, I can't quite put my finger on what it is exactly but it's like it's filmed 30 years ago. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:27:18 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By JTF: Excellent! My take away... ability to move LOWER and SLOWER at altitudes of 50 FT or less. Didn't realize helicopters operated that close to the ground. All by seat-of-the pants? No time to scan instruments? Thank-you. 50 feet in a high threat environment is actually getting up there. The goal is no more than 25 feet above the highest obstacle. There's been times during exercises that I've been flying down 2 lane roads with trees on either side, body of the helicopter in the middle over the road with the cockpit below the top of the treeline while the blades are above the trees. That's not the normal standard by any means but that's the kind of stuff we're capable of doing. Over flat plains going from treeline to treeline? I'll do 100KTS at less than 10ft off the ground. There isn't really time for an instrument scan but that's part of the reason we've got our HDU (The monocle you see on Apache helmets, it's part of the aircraft) it'll show our readout from our radar altimeter, torque settings, and has a flight path vector to show us based on current control inputs where the helicopter is going. It's a neat system once you know how to use it all. |
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NV, USA
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:31:21 AM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:33:39 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryPutin will make sure disgruntled soldiers don't return home one way or another. He won't take a chance at any potential uprising. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:37:07 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By mancow: Every video from there looks like it's from the 80s. It's strange, I can't quite put my finger on what it is exactly but it's like it's filmed 30 years ago. I guess it is all the old infrastructure. You sure don't see fancy department stores and modern buildings once you leave St. Petersburg and Moscow. That last one was in Tula. Isn't Tula where the big ammunition plant is? The rural areas of Russia all look like our rural areas about the time rural electrification came thru sometime in the 1930's. I was 6 years old before we moved into a house with full indoor plumbing. The original house had electricity, cold only running water in the kitchen and no bathroom, and wood stove for heating and wood stove for cooking and heating bath/washtub water. To say the house was hot during the summer was an understatement. Going out to the outhouse in the wintertime was something to remember. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:46:20 AM EDT
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By unreformed66: That was a great explanation for a layman such as myself who has nearly no knowledge of helicopters and their operations. Thank you! Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By unreformed66: Originally Posted By DASJUDEN: Going to answer these in reverse order because it just flows better. So a helicopter remains in ground effect(IGE) up to a distance that is roughly equivalent to its rotor diameter, for an Apache it's roughly around 50ft. Without nerding out on it and going through a long ass spiel on aerodynamics the rotor is more efficient in producing lift while IGE and requires less power to remain at a hover. Hovering above that 50ft (or whatever the rotor diameter is) is called hovering out of ground effect (OGE) and requires typically 20% or more power applied to maintain that hover. So if I'm hovering at say 64% torque IGE it would be closer to 84% if I was at an OGE hover. Important to note is that in a helicopter you don't always have 100% torque available due to factors such as high temperature, high density altitude, and high gross weight of the helicopter (the inverse to this is also true.) Sometimes you've got 106% torque available, sometimes you've got 86% torque available. It's all dependent on loadout and environmental conditions. The ability to hover OGE is desirable because it lets you use the strengths of the helicopter platform (vertical climb and descent) to the fullest extent. If I don't have the power to hover OGE I have to stay above what is called Velocity Safe Dual Engine (VSDE) or if I'm a single engine helicopter Velocity Safe Single Engine(VSSE.) Both VSDE and VSSE are a minimum airspeed that if I don't maintain at or above that speed the helicopter will be in a descent until one of three things happens. Either I get my airspeed back above the VSDE/VSSE, I am back in ground effect, or the helicopter hits the ground. If I can hover OGE I can move a lot lower and a lot slower to get into a position that I can shoot the enemy from. If I'm working as a team of 2 helicopters, one helicopter can come up from behind the trees and hold a stable stationary firing position and cover their wingman while they maneuver forward. We call that bounding overwatch. If I've got a sensor mounted on top of my rotor mast like our fire control radar(FCR) it allows me to just get the FCR above the trees so that way I'm not exposing my whole aircraft to enemy fire and I'm presenting them with a smaller target. The Hind due to both how it was designed aerodynamically (the wings on it generate a significant amount of lift for the airframe) and the engines it's equipped with is incapable of hovering OGE once it is fully loaded out for combat operations, they just don't have the max torque available. It's inherent in the design of the weapon system as well. The earlier models all had fixed forward guns with limited elevation adjustment rather than turrets, the prevalence of rocket pods used in a saturation fire manner, and the use of wire guided missiles because the aircraft as designed was meant to strafe like a fixed wing and take targets head on. It essentially functions as a very slow fixed wing asset that can utilize unimproved surfaces rather than a helicopter. Hope that answers your questions and hope the acronym explanation style I used was to everyone's liking. That was a great explanation for a layman such as myself who has nearly no knowledge of helicopters and their operations. Thank you! I've read every page of this epic thread and it continues to deliver. If I only read this thread then my membership at ARFCOM since 2003 would be completely worth it. Thank you to ALL of the experts that continue to fill this thread with useful info. . . . and please - use all of the acronyms you want. I like hearing expert information in its native format. Hearing it helps understand how people in the .mil (and other areas) communicate - and I can always look up acronyms. Keep up the great work! |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:49:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#39]
Interesting contrast between early liberation and later.
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Posted: 11/13/2022 1:50:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: The_Gooch]
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By K0UA: I guess it is all the old infrastructure. You sure don't see fancy department stores and modern buildings once you leave St. Petersburg and Moscow. That last one was in Tula. Isn't Tula where the big ammunition plant is? The rural areas of Russia all look like our rural areas about the time rural electrification came thru sometime in the 1930's. I was 6 years old before we moved into a house with full indoor plumbing. The original house had electricity, cold only running water in the kitchen and no bathroom, and wood stove for heating and wood stove for cooking and heating bath/washtub water. To say the house was hot during the summer was an understatement. Going out to the outhouse in the wintertime was something to remember.  Row after row of soulless gray "commie block" apartments. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:01:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#41]
In the Kherson region, the Armed Forces of Ukraine struck a high-precision blow to the area of concentration of the occupiers
https://armyinform.com.ua/2022/11/13/u-hersonskij-oblasti-zsu-likviduvaly-rajon-zoseredzhennya-okupantiv/ According to the updated information, the defeat by the Defense Forces of the area of concentration of the occupiers in the Kherson region was confirmed. This was reported by the General Staff of the Armed Forces of Ukraine. In the area of the settlement of Dnepryany, a high-precision strike was struck on the building, where there were up to 500 occupants. According to its results, two trucks of the dead invaders were taken to Tauride. 56 severely injured people were transported to the nearest hospital, of which, soon, another 16 people died. Final information on the losses of the occupiers is being clarified. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:11:43 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#42]
‼️‼️Near Melitopol, the Kadyrovites are hanging flags around the village, and the Russian military are looking for labor force. The village of Plodorodnoye, Melitopol district, was occupied by divisions of the chief tik-toker Ramzan Kadyrov. According to local residents, the first thing the Kadyrovites began to do was hang up village houses and buildings with flags depicting their bearded "leader". Together with the Chechens, the village is full of Russians and Buryats. First of all, they occupy empty houses. At every crossroads in Plodorodny, a checkpoint has been set up, where the Rashists stubbornly dig in. In the village appeared and his "watcher" - a Chechen named Beno. This ding-dong brags about sharing a photo with Kadyrov and offers protection services. PRESS ➡️ SUBSCRIBE TO THE CHANNEL | Send news @RiaMelitopolTV https://t.me/riamelitopol/75014 |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:18:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: Prime]
[#43]
In Zaporozhye, people were evacuated after a missile strike by the Russian Federation (photo)
https://www.unian.net/war/novosti-zaporozhya-zhiteley-shevchenkovskogo-rayona-evakuiruyut-posle-obstrela-rf-foto-12043818.html?utm_source=telegram&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=unian_channel  In Zaporozhye, law enforcement officers evacuated residents of the Shevchenko district after a missile strike by the Russian Federation. People were in the zone of destruction of the Iskander-K missile with a cluster charge. According to the press service of the State Unitary Enterprise of Zaporizhzhya region, 29 residents were evacuated to safe places. Another 59 people left on their own. "Residents of one of the residential areas of the city were in the zone of destruction by the Iskander-K missile, equipped with a cluster charge. Explosive elements scattered among the residential area. Due to the fact that the cassettes can detonate at any time, a temporary evacuation of the population was carried out. There was no information about damage or destruction of infrastructure facilities, as well as about the dead or injured," the police stressed. Police officers, employees of the State Emergency Service, the Security Service of Ukraine, doctors and representatives of local authorities are working at the scenes of the incident. Law enforcers seize the wreckage of exploded missiles and document the consequences of the war crime of the Russian occupiers. "In order to neutralize cluster munitions and ensure the safety of the civilian population, 29 residents were evacuated from residential apartment buildings located in the zone of possible detonation of unexploded elements by the police and rescuers to safe places, another 59 left on their own. Now the demining of the territory by the employees of the explosive service of the GUNP and the Department of the State Emergency Service in the Zaporizhzhya region continues," the law enforcers added. Situation in Zaporizhzhya region Russian occupiers continue to shell Zaporozhye and the region. In addition, compared to August-September, Russians produce almost ten times less cars from the occupied territory of the Zaporozhye regionto the regional center. During the day, November 9, the Russian occupiers shelled the Zaporozhye region 71 times. Under attack were 35 infrastructure facilities in 16 settlements. Earlier it was reported that the Russians massively bring people to the occupied Melitopol from other temporarily captured territories. They settle them in empty houses on the territory of the city and surrounding villages. And in some places, the Rashists are trying to build a defense. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:22:04 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: I had already explained it and apologized for using acronyms in a post prior to his. He either didn't read that post or didn't comprehend it so I restated it more directly. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By DASJUDEN: Originally Posted By TheHunstman: Lighten up Francis. A lot of non-military members ask every now and then to explain the acronyms being tossed about. He could have asked nicer but come on, this isn't a .mil subforum. I had already explained it and apologized for using acronyms in a post prior to his. He either didn't read that post or didn't comprehend it so I restated it more directly. I don’t think you need to apologize for using acronyms that are second nature. Everyone here should have google and the ability to use it. By the way, I would like to publicly apologize for implying you were a shill a ways back. That was out of line. I thought I was seeing some things that I’ve seen about 200 times in this thread and I reacted. |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:23:21 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RIP-Yataski: Leveraging this country's future even moar than already leveraged is totes worth it if it kills just one orc... ...ukraine bros: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/350291/69B2C3DD-AB51-405D-AC94-11ABC7DC9160-2409960.gif *Click* |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:23:59 AM EDT
[#46]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:25:41 AM EDT
[#47]
Dnipropetrovsk region, November 13, 7:20 a.m.
Two wounded and dozens of damaged houses... At night, Nikopol region suffered again from enemy fire. The Russians directed their "Hradi" and heavy artillery to the Nikopol and Marganets communities. Nikopol suffered the most. Almost 40 deadly shells flew into the night city. Two women - 46 and 82 years old - were injured. Both were taken to a local hospital. Moderate condition. In the city, more than 40 high-rise and private buildings, more than two dozen commercial buildings, several gas pipelines and power lines were damaged. Russian shells completely destroyed one house and caused two fires - in an apartment and in a private yard. Firefighters have already tamed the flames. The local college, the RACS department, the administrative building and the tire repair shop were also affected by the shelling. No people were affected in the Marganets community. Private houses were broken into. In the rest of the districts, it is a night with sirens, but without "arrivals" and for the moment it is calm. #russiaisaterroriststate https://t.me/dnipropetrovskaODA |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:31:12 AM EDT
[#48]
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:39:08 AM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By spydercomonkey: https://www.newsweek.com/antonov-russia-ukraine-war-mercenary-hunting-safari-1758888 https://i.redd.it/9khf7655kiz91.png And? |
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Posted: 11/13/2022 2:40:32 AM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By GiggleSmith: Final thought on acronyms..... CRT Used to stand for Cathode Ray Tube: TV Sets, monitors and the like. BRDM= big Russian dirt machine |
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