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1/25/2018 7:38:29 AM
Posted: 5/29/2002 10:17:46 AM EST
Lots of coverage on all the major networks right now about India and Pakistan. The consensus seems to be these guys are gonna light them off and soon. In all my 31 years have not heard this kind of fear. My dad says it hasn't been this close since Cuba. Right now Fox is examining the blast and post blast physiological effects. What are is strategic fall out for lack of a better term? Also how close is this? My gut says if the media is on it like this than the powers that be probably have some serious, serious worries and think it may be beyond the brink. Example. Americans being advised to leave India. Whatcha think?
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:24:02 AM EST
it's still not too late to settle peacefully. I survived the cuban missle crisis and the cold war just to take strontium 90 from pakistan and india? i think not. i thing we need to warn them that we will nuke the survivors (if any), maybe that'll make em think before they do something stupid.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:24:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:29:24 AM EST
I really hope it doesn't come to that. I've survived untold numbers of nuke tests that used to be done in the open air in Nevada, 300 miles from my home here in Utah. Those tests didn't do much good for a lot of folks, but realistically I doubt if anything in Pakistan/India is going to give me any bigger dose than I've already had. Watch-Six
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:31:33 AM EST
Well, I hope it doesn't get to that point. But if it does, I hope India overshoots one into Iraq. HEHE
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:35:58 AM EST
Originally Posted By Diss_ipator: Well, I hope it doesn't get to that point. But if it does, I hope India overshoots one into Iraq. HEHE
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that would be funny if their targeting systems over shot and hit iraq and got rid of sadam
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:41:28 AM EST
India has more troops, tanks, ships, and aircraft. Pakistan has more nukes. I hope this just dies out with no major incidents. Av.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 10:47:22 AM EST
Yeah. Go India.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:06:52 AM EST
IMHO, I think Pakistan is flexing it's muscles and acting tough, like a little punk with his bigger buddy standing behind him would do in a fight. Unfortunately, WE are the bigger buddy. I feel Pakistan is testing India to see what they can get away with while we are in their country. However, I feel if India were to pull some bonehead maneuver and bomb Pakistan and maybe kill a few US personell, there would be hell to pay. If it is all out conventional war...let them have at it. But seeing as how Pak is outnumbered and out gunned, I feel their response to a losing battle would be the nukes. Kind of a last ditch effort. My only question is, What is so special about the Kashmir region that they are willing to blow it to pieces? Seems a little counter productive to me.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:25:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 11:26:14 AM EST by zonan]
Originally Posted By lurker: i thing we need to warn them that we will nuke the survivors (if any), maybe that'll make em think before they do something stupid.
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That is a creative solution.
Originally Posted By Avalon01: Pakistan has more nukes
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Source? Fox news said that india has twice as many warheads.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:25:36 AM EST
I think I'm glad I'm on this side of the planet. I have little doubt that they will go to war. If not now, soon(10 yrs max). A war there will draw in the Islamic nations, China, then Russia, etc. Could get plenty ugly before its over.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 11:55:13 AM EST
This is just a bad situation all around. I was never too worried about the US and Soviet Union going nuclear as both sides were sensible and knew it would mean mutual destruction. But these unstable, third world nations with idiots for leaders are not the same. As these nations continue to develop nuclear capabilities, sooner or later, one or more of them is going to use them. It's just a matter of time. All we can hope for is that they don't get missiles that are capable of reaching us (we need this damn missile defense system) as they will eventually get missiles with that kind of range. The world is becoming more dangerous than it has ever been. I just hope we can avert a direct nuke attack on this nation and survive the fall-out from other nations. Sooner or later that will come.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 12:01:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By drjarhead: I think I'm glad I'm on this side of the planet. I have little doubt that they will go to war. If not now, soon(10 yrs max). A war there will draw in the Islamic nations, China, then Russia, etc. Could get plenty ugly before its over.
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Why would China and Russia get involved? They haven't fought in any of the previous wars between India and Pakistan.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 12:04:12 PM EST
I think Pakistan has too much to lose with regard to our recognition and support. And both countries know they have little to gain (Kashmir) but lots to lose (millions of people).
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 12:11:30 PM EST
Well it's close. I think the state dept. believes that a conventional war is immenent, at least that seems to be the general attitude that is being broadcast. On the other hand I was speaking with my grandfather about it and he was all over India and in Karachi(when it was still in India possesion) during WWII. He said if they nuked each other it would be a blessing as India is one big sewer! Lol! He said there wasn't a sanitary shitter in sight and everything stinks to high heaven. Old-timers are pretty funny sometimes!
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 12:14:42 PM EST
Time to stock up on these: [url]http://www.nukepills.com/[/url]
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 12:26:02 PM EST
Go India! Do you think that they'll unleash Kali? [img]http://www.enchantingdevil.8k.com/kali.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 1:15:32 PM EST
i am just tired of hearing the news say somthing might happen. i want it to just happen, so we can just get it over with. "to care for sheep, you must deal with wolves"
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 1:24:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 4:36:53 PM EST by Tate]
Originally Posted By eswanson: I think I'm cheering for the Hindus. Go India. ......Unfortunately, whatever the fallout (literally and figuratively) there's not much I can do about it except hope the big glowing cloud doesn't blow over Northern Illinois.
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First of all, I too say "Go India!". I don't care that they were a former Soviet client state - right now, I am prejudiced against and warry of all things muslim. You are a muslim nation and mean the U.S. no harm? Pretend I am from Missouri - show me. As for doing something about the "glowing cloud", there is something you can do - purchase and keep on hand potassium iodate/iodide. Not gonna protect you if one lands in your lap, but the stuff DOES make a difference as far as fallout goes. mercurus - The following IS NOT a flame intended for you in any shape, form, or fashion! I appreciate your concern for the board members and thank you for posting info on this particular product. Seriously. Take a look at www.nukepills.com/ - $9.95 for 14 pills???? This "deal" is for those same folks who pay $5 for a stripper filled with "green tip armor piercing stop-em-rounds" at the gun shows. [;)] KI and KIO3 are CHEAP. Buying direct from a retailer, you can get it for $16.75 for **200** pills. I'm selling the stuff I got after 09/11 for $14 per 200 85mg pills - that's 100 adult doses. I got a whole case of the stuff. As for "individually foil sealed for freshness" - uuhh - all the brands I've ever seen are stored in airtight bottles or packs. Kind of like advertising that a new car comes with an engine.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 1:32:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 1:32:43 PM EST by thedave1164]
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 2:05:10 PM EST
Originally Posted By Renamed:
Originally Posted By drjarhead: I think I'm glad I'm on this side of the planet. I have little doubt that they will go to war. If not now, soon(10 yrs max). A war there will draw in the Islamic nations, China, then Russia, etc. Could get plenty ugly before its over.
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Why would China and Russia get involved? They haven't fought in any of the previous wars between India and Pakistan.
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Because... China and India are enemies. They both have considerable strategic and political as well as economic interests in the region. China will ammass troops, etc on their southern and eastern frontiers while using the whole situation to further intimidate and threaten Taiwan. China will wait until the situation appears to favor them strategically before discovering some pretense to make a move. Make no doubt: If China finds it has an advantage at any point it will take advantage of it-militarily if the situation presents itself. Russia will get involved due to its proximity, the threat of China with troops ammassed on its frontier and also due to the inevitable involvement of its former islamic republics laden with nukes. Russia will have no choice but to choose a side. Same will go for us. Could we stand by while China takes the whole of southern Asia. that would be a political and strategic nightmare. It would be better to choose sides early and become involved than to wait until China controls the oilfields of the Middle East and has established well defended bases around them. China, though, is the wild card. How they go, if this all erupts, will determine the mid and endgame for the rest of us. Trust them not, I think.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 2:24:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/29/2002 2:25:22 PM EST by platform389]
Originally Posted By Renamed: Why would China and Russia get involved? They haven't fought in any of the previous wars between India and Pakistan.
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To answer this question, please refer to the photos on the top of page 45 of the June issue of AIR FORCES MONTHLY magazine. [url]http://www.airforcesmonthly.com/[/url] Photo 1: "PLAAF Chief Of Air Staff, Lt General Zheng Shan Xia sits beside Pakistan Air Force Chief, Air Chief Marshal Mushaf Ali Mir." Photo 2: "Long Live Sino Pak Friendship" banner China and Pakistan are real cozy. Russia and India equally so.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 3:02:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By mercurus: Time to stock up on these: [url]http://www.nukepills.com/[/url]
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Thanks mercurus, bought 10 got one free.I'm not worried about the mideast conflict as much as I'm worried about the nuke plants that surrounds me[whacko]
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 3:06:56 PM EST
Originally Posted By Tate: KI and KIO3 are CHEAP. Buying direct from a retailer, you can get it for $16.75 for **100** pills. I'm selling the stuff I got after 09/11 for $14 per 100 - I got a whole case of the stuff.
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You've got an email coming your way.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 4:34:04 PM EST
Thanks, Muad_Dib. I mistakenly listed what I have as 100 pills per bottle - it's actually 200 pills per bottle - 100 adult doses - sorry. From [url]www.ki4u.com[/url] KIO3 has an iodine content of 60%, so two 85 mg tablets (170 mg total, one adult dose) works out to 103 mg of available iodine. (That's very similar to Potassium Iodide (KI), with its iodine content of 76.5%, to where each 130 mg tablet of Potassium Iodide (KI) has 99.45 mg of iodine available.)
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 5:11:18 PM EST
Originally Posted By Cincinnatus: Go India! Do you think that they'll unleash Kali? [img]http://www.enchantingdevil.8k.com/kali.jpg[/img]
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Go Murph! It's time for another Art of the Day thread... Pretty please? [:D]
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 5:15:42 PM EST
Originally Posted By mcwarrior: I think Pakistan has too much to lose with regard to our recognition and support.
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Agreed. By immediately asisting the U.S. in the Afghan war, Pakistan now has the keys to the U.S. Treasury - they won't screw that deal up.
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 6:00:52 PM EST
[size=6]Pre-Emptive Strike[/size=6] [size=4][blue]USA! USA! USA![/blue][/size=4]
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 7:19:32 PM EST
First of all, capabilities. India is much better off. They probably have boosted fission bombs with a yield in the 40 kt range. (Boosted fission uses a small amount of fusion, but the fusion fuel is there to provide neutrons for splitting more fission atoms more quickly, not to provide a bigger bang in and of itself.) Pakistan is probably using U-235 gun-type bombs with a yield in the 10 KT or less range. India could possibly have fusion bombs as well (ie, H-bombs.) They claim to have sucessfully tested a two-stage H-bomb device in their last test series, though other people say they got a fizzle when the fusion stage didn't ignite. They claim the second stage was intentionally small. Even if it did fail, maybe they went back to the drawing board and fixed it. So India is probably at least at the early-1950's level of sophistication, while Pakistan is in the mid-1940's level. H-bombs radically changed nuclear strategy in the US-Soviet era. One 25 MT weapon and its fallout could wipe out an entire city in one explosion. ICBMs usually used smaller weapons of a few hundred KT, but that would be destructive enough. 10-40KT weapons would not be able to wipe out entire cities. what probably would happen, though, is that if a city got nuked everyone in any other large city in the region would evacuate and become a refugee. Would you stick around Karachi or Bangalore after Islamabad or New Dehli got nuked? This would put huge strains on food distribution and medical systems. So in addition to the direct blast and radiation deaths, you'd also have a breakdown in the support systems of society. The results of that situation would depend on how long the period of uncertaintany lasted. Personally, I have a lot more sympathy with the Indians, though they happen to be in the wrong over Kashmir. But I don't much like the prospects for what a follow-on Pakistani government would look like. If the Mushareff government got killed or nuked, the most probable sucessor would be whomever is well organized. That probably means the ISI, which is sympathetic to bin Laden, the military, some of which is also sympathetic to al Qaeda, or the nut-job fundamentalists in the massadras. So if the Indians are going to nuke them, they should nuke them good and hard and make sure there are no loose Pakistani nukes left lying about afterwards. Plus drop a few into the northwest territories and kill the bin Laden sympathizers. One possible outcome is for India to simply take over Pakistan. The two were one country back when the British ruled, and the Indians have never been very happy about the split. This would probably get the local muslim population riled up, but on the other hand the Indian army would probably to an excellent job of smacking the Taliban/al Qaeda remnants around, unlike the Pakistani army. So I suppose India winning is a high risk proposition, with the possibility of both a very bad outcome (nukes in the hands of a fundamentalist nut-job Pakistani government) and a very good, if bloody, outcome (India takes over Pakistan, fights a long guerilla war, and roots out the elements in Pakistan sympathetic to al Qaeda.)
Link Posted: 5/29/2002 7:35:48 PM EST
I'm not affiliated with that nukepills company in any way, nor do I endorse their products. I thought it a appropriate link for this thread. I bought a 30 day supply of these pills for my family of 3. I also bought a 500ml bottle of liquid potassium iodide to be on the safe side (which is probably enough to dose a few hundred people with Ki for 100 days). If you're on a budget, go for the Ki in liquid form, or buy the cheaper Potassium Iodate, which is claimed to be just as effective as the Potassium Iodide. Maybe I'm over-paying for the pills, but if the sh*t hits the fan, I want to have the peace of mind that I'm taking the same pills our prez, senators, and others in the guvment are taking....
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:22:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By mercurus:Maybe I'm over-paying for the pills, but if the sh*t hits the fan, I want to have the peace of mind that I'm taking the same pills our prez, senators, and others in the guvment are taking....
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Yep Yep Yep, I know I could have bought it cheaper but its individual sealed, FDA approved, and yes the same stuff the guvment uses. And you know the spineless $^%*%^ would only use the most effective product. Plus my family worth it, Thanks again for the link mercurus
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:49:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By thedave1164: Lets get our son's and daughters out of pakistan, india and afganland, then strike the arsenals on both sides. Once the nukes are destroyed, give them all super soakers and let them put the fires out. dave
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AMEN
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 7:59:39 AM EST
Originally Posted By Charging_Handle: This is just a bad situation all around. I was never too worried about the US and Soviet Union going nuclear as both sides were sensible and knew it would mean mutual destruction. But these unstable, third world nations with idiots for leaders are not the same. As these nations continue to develop nuclear capabilities, sooner or later, one or more of them is going to use them. It's just a matter of time. All we can hope for is that they don't get missiles that are capable of reaching us (we need this damn missile defense system) as they will eventually get missiles with that kind of range. The world is becoming more dangerous than it has ever been. I just hope we can avert a direct nuke attack on this nation and survive the fall-out from other nations. Sooner or later that will come.
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Yes, this world is getting dangerous, I think its about time we start banning firearms, and not give pilots firearms, that will make things better.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 8:13:49 AM EST
China and India are enemies.
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True. But that still doesn't give China a motive to jump into a war. Here's what China's choices would be: A) Sit back and watch your enemy, India, be devastated B) Intervene on behalf of your POS ally, Pakistan, and risk losing a few cities to Indian nukes, plus escelate a war that's going to hurt the economy you've been working so hard to build Not a tough decision, IMHO.
China will ammass troops, etc on their southern and eastern frontiers while using the whole situation to further intimidate and threaten Taiwan.
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If China wants to get ugly with Taiwan, they aren't going to move their forces to the other end of the country.
Make no doubt: If China finds it has an advantage at any point it will take advantage of it-militarily if the situation presents itself.
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Right. So they might grab some territory in the Himalayas while the Indians are preoccupied, but they aren't going to risk a major confrontation.
Russia will get involved due to its proximity, the threat of China with troops ammassed on its frontier and also due to the inevitable involvement of its former islamic republics laden with nukes. Russia will have no choice but to choose a side.
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Neither Pakistan nor India share a border with Russia. Look at a map -- there's a lot of Asia in between them. The governments of the various "Stans" from the former Soviet Union have their own problems. They'd have nothing to gain by sharing whatever punishment India inflicts on Pakistan.
Could we stand by while China takes the whole of southern Asia. that would be a political and strategic nightmare.
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That would be a nightmare -- for China. Why would they want to rule a radioactive wasteland with half a billion refugees? And even if they did want to, they'd have two problems: a military machine that doesn't travel well and the world's highest mountains in between them and South Asia.
China and Pakistan are real cozy. Russia and India equally so.
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That's old news. Their "buddies" still didn't intervene the last few times India and Pakistan tangled.
Link Posted: 5/30/2002 8:52:06 AM EST
I see several reasons why this is very serious. One is that Musharraf can only be so much of a Western good-guy before he loses support. He may not have any real choice except to allow the extremists to operate in Kashmir. India on the other hand could easily see itself in a never-ending struggle against terrorism similar to Isreals problems. They can't just sit around and wait until Pakistan has hundreds more nukes. They can survive the struggle as is an win. Later they may not be able to. The only political solution is for Musharraf to competely bow down to India's demands. That's why Bush is telling him to get a handle on the terrorism. The problem, in addition to above, is that, like Arafat, he may not be able to control it even if he wanted to. The question is whether he goes nuclear after India invades. I think he would have to or lose control of the country and the nukes. The issue for the US and the rest of the world is what happens to the psyche of the leftover Pakistanis. Will there be a few nukes left over? Then there's the rest of the Muslim world. It's a good way to trigger WWIII if the the nukes aren't bad enough.
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