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Posted: 5/4/2001 5:30:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 5:30:55 AM EDT by neverenuf]
What would you do if your door suddenly came crashing down? With all the home invasions in this country and with criminals impersonating LEOs, How do you tell the difference? Do you shoot first and ask questions later?
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:54:03 AM EDT
you cant tell the diference. just shoot to kill. home invasion = bad guys cops = misguided good guys (bad guys) its all the same in my book.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:54:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:54:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 5:54:23 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
What if you KNOW it's the cops? Say it's 3 am and you get up to take the dog out to go. You look outside and see a dozen guys dressed in black out in front of your house. They are wearing ski masks and carrying machineguns. At first, you think home invasion. Then you can just make out the ATF on the side of a panel van. "Oh crap, it's a raid!", you realize. Despite your best efforts to obey all the gun laws, can you be 100% sure? You run through the possible outcomes: 1. they break in and kill you 2. they break in and plant evidence 3. they break in, seize your stuff and make one of your guns double fire after playing with it for 8 hours at the Quantico machine shop (that's the legal test) 4. they break in, rough you up, seize your stuff and trump up some charges So, if you live, you will be someone's cellbitch, or you will go broke fighting the charges. [size=3][b]At this point, why not grab the AR-15, slide on your vest and SHOOT IT OUT?!
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:59:35 AM EDT
Last time that I tried that I died.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 5:59:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:05:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 6:04:55 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Pangea - I think your life is pretty much shot anyway, why not go down fighting? Hey, with the element of surprise you might just win! (there is a chance) Garand Shooter - Your neighbor is pissed at you for whatever reason and calls you into the ATF for manufacturing illegal machine guns after he sees you cleaning your AR-15 in the garage. [blue]"No-Knock, ATF calling"
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:14:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:16:05 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:26:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 6:28:18 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Garand Shooter - given your handle, woulnd't you grab the M1 over the M1A?? I have to disagree on the gun choice. While the M1A has better long range penetration, if they are wearing a rifle resistant vest it won't matter if you have the M1A or the AR-15. However, if they only have typical class II vests (pistol), the AR-15 will punch through just fine and offers more firepower (rounds w/out reload) and is easier to control on rapid fire. Still, either rifle is still a good choice. And if their information is wrong, yep, screw'em.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:45:00 AM EDT
Great idea Fight4yourrights. You will not have to worry about being Bubba's wife in jail for long because you will be getting the lethal injection. Don't you guys think anything past the immediate moment? You will be guilty of murder of a federal officer(s) in the performance of their duties. Your only hope is life on the lam. Even with a fair trial, even if the prosecutor did not paint you as a crazed nut with a gun to the media (and that's real likely), you still lose in court. Not to mention, what happens to your family while you're shooting it out with ATF? Most house walls don't stop bullets very well. Do you have a safe bunker to put your kids? Any chance they will be incinerated in there? Every asset you have will go to pay your lawyers or the families of the dead ATF agents. Your family will get nothing from your estate. In your scenario, call your lawyer, your neighbors and maybe 911. Get your SO to start the video camera. Walk out the door with your hands empty and away from your body. Say "Howdy Boys" to the ATF. If they have an arrest warrant they can legally arrest you. If they have a search warrant, they can legally search the house. Opposing them on the ground that they may try to plant evidence or that you don't like the legal standard they use is not a winning strategy in court. (Of course, if you get your family killed, you may get aquitted on the sympathy vote.)
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:46:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:52:16 AM EDT
If I was [b]certain[/b] that it was LEO of any type? Assume the position immediately! Otherwise you'd be dead meat in a matter of seconds, killed by some D***wad with nothing more on his mind than 'jes following orders.' It's obvious you lost Round One. Take the ride into town. Don't say a word, call an attorney, and take it to the Courts. I'm not worried about them planting evidence. In fact, I hope they do, 'cause it would make it a lot easier to explain some of the other goodies they might find lying about my house![:D] If you win Round One, you will assuredly lose Round Two. That's when the armored cars arrive! Eric The(Know when to hold, when to fold)Hun
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:52:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 6:52:44 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
I was fortunate to score 500 rounds of 30-06 for my Garand at a recent show, so I'm covered either way. It's good ammo. Funny thing is how the tips are painted black [;)] [;)]
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:03:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 7:06:38 AM EDT by Garand_Shooter]
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:10:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/4/2001 7:13:56 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]
Valkyrie2001 - I think you missed my point - it's 3am - this is a NO KNOCK raid. Forget about possible planted evidence, you stand a very good chance of getting killed! There is sufficent history of raids gone bad to stand before a jury and argue "I was afraid for my life". "I defended my family against a home invasion. I had no real idea WHO these guys were" Did you hear about the family that assumed the position? A raiding officer "accidently" let a 12 gauge round loose into the back of an 11 year old boy. How about Diallo just pulling out a wallet? Unarmed criminals in Cinci getting cut down by LEO's? Compliance can get you killed. Armed resistance to unreasonable force, even by LEO's, is LEGAL! This is not a reasonable way to serve the warrant (assuming they even have one). Hey, come to my door in the middle of the day and show me a warrant. I'll put out my hands, get cuffed and take a ride to the office. Storm my house in dark of the night, and be prepared for lethal resistance.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 8:51:18 AM EDT
I'm sure glad I moved to Pa.!! The LEO's seem so much more reasonable here, and they are not afraid to do their jobs. Unlike the Pussies in Md. and other places that think the only way to talk to someone or arrest them is to kick their door in and kill anything that moves. No need to flame, unless you just get off on it, but I've seen it time and time again. Pa (at least in my area) trusts its citizens until given good reason not to. In Md., everyone's guilty and if they aren't, they will be by court time, assuming they survive. YES, I know some Md. LEO's that are OK and they know what I'm talking about too. No wonder Md. doesn't want CCW.... Now in other parts of Pa, such as Phili or Pitt, it may be different. For the record, I don't break laws and I have never been arrested myself, but having grown up there (Md.), I know how it is. And to tie this all in to the thread, if my door gets kicked in, I HOPE they are screaming POLICE! POLICE!, because I'm shooting anyone that doesn't. I really don't see my house getting raided though. It would be a complete waste of time.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 9:01:31 AM EDT
HEY! Maryland resembles those comments! BTW- in Colorado the BG's are dressing up as JBT's and screaming "POLICE" as they break down your door. How do you tell the difference? The real cops don't yell "POLICE"???
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:07:25 PM EDT
Where has that happened in Colorado? I'm not doubting you I just want to know if I need to gear up my guns.-
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 3:12:41 PM EDT
Not sure where in Co. I've just read a LOT of articles about BGs impersonating Police raids, and bad LEO raids.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 6:40:38 PM EDT
A no knock raid at 3 am in the morning. I am assuming that the people who are breaking down the door are failing to properly identify themselves (yelling "Police !" does not constitute the sole means of identification required under the law.), are failing be wearing any sort of recognizable uniform with badges, and fail to present a search or arrest warrant prior to entering the house and while they may in fact be police officers (unknown since they have failed to demonstrably to properly identify themselves so as to leave no room for doubt): they may be acting illegally under "color of authority" and such actions may be construed as having criminal intent. They get shot in the head and neck areas.
Link Posted: 5/4/2001 7:00:47 PM EDT
I don't see any other choice, Bostonterrier97. I agree with you.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:21:12 AM EDT
I can see you buntch of Lay down and take it tipes, Have never been throu this tipe of rade befor. I was living in an apartment and i hear this load crash in the middel of the night. It was the aparment nextstore I did not know at the emideit time what was going on. I gumped up and grabed my gun and ran out the door, Wrong move they had me spread eagel and suronded with mashin guns as sune as i opened the door. It was a raid on my nabers apartment. well now to the point of this, He had some druges, and when it was all over he plee bargend in cort to a lesser charge, a mistamener, And turned in someone else. The feds took everything he owned his truck his furnitur everything. He had nuthing when it was over. By the way thay rufed me up pritty good. I think it was over kill. Could have been handeled diferntly. What if my naber had been up and stared shooting, the walls are thin there.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:45:34 AM EDT
Hey Boston: A no-knock doersn't require they knock and present a warrant before entering. Thats why its a no-knock. As for ID, almost every team I see out there has a big "police" stenciled on the back and front of every officer. No knocks are a small per centage of warrants executed, usually done that way for a reason.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 1:51:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: Not sure where in Co. I've just read a LOT of articles about BGs impersonating Police raids, and bad LEO raids.
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Are the impersonators wearing labeled windbreakers? Of course there's a good reason for no-knocks sometimes. Other times it's a reason to justify themselves and their gestapo tactics. [red][size=4]P.R.K.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 1:59:11 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 1:58:34 AM EDT by prk]
Originally Posted By gus: (snip) And to tie this all in to the thread, if my door gets kicked in, I HOPE they are screaming POLICE! POLICE!, because I'm shooting anyone that doesn't.
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The problem is, if it's the bad guys yelling this, you'll lose your advantage because you held back
I really don't see my house getting raided though. It would be a complete waste of time.
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Maybe to you, but they get to practice their stuff and flex their muscle. Oh, and you can almost bet there is some law somewhere that you've broken and not known it or intended to. [red][size=4]P.R.K.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 2:22:33 AM EDT
Just because it says ATF on their outfits doesnt mean they arent criminals!
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 2:40:13 AM EDT
Uh...who makes rifle caliber resistant vests. I'd like to see some manufacture names/sites. God, if they exist, they must weigh a ton.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:04:47 AM EDT
A home invasion at night by anyone, LE or not, will be met by all the firepower I can muster. A mans home is his castle and anyone stupid enough to try it gets what he gets. I don't care what they may be yelling when they are trying to break in, my answer will come with my AR and Beta c.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:08:49 AM EDT
That's why the next house I build is going to have dual steel outward-opening doors at each entrance, with a sally-port between each door. Anybody crashing in would find themselves stuck in front of all their buddies, with no way out but back. Also, no ground floor windows, glass ones at least. Heh.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 7:36:15 AM EDT
I CAN ONLY HOPE ILL HAVE MY AR ON MY LAP BUT REALITICALY I ALWAYS HAVE A PISTOL AT ARMS REACH WHEN IM AT HOME SO ILL GET A COUPLE OF EM BEFORE THEY UNLEASH ALL HELL ON ME.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 11:43:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 12:19:34 PM EDT
You should just comply with whoever is doing the "raid". I am pretty sure that you can get a shyster from here to sue the cops/criminals.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 1:06:21 PM EDT
"Of course there's a good reason for no-knocks sometimes. Other times it's a reason to justify themselves and their gestapo tactics." Well maybe on one of Osama Bin Ladins bomb factories, or on someone who has a history of shooting cops. But how often does that happen?
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 4:32:27 PM EDT
My problem with the few, three in person and several on the news, no-knock raids I've seen locally is that the police officers are not wearing uniforms. I may be old, but neither a T-shirt nor blue jeans are apporpriate to wear in public for a professional. ID'ing police officers, around here atleast, has become so difficult that we're told to obey any forceful sounding person. Not immediately disarming ourselves in front of a local LEO is more dangerous, according to SLED (state law enforcement division in SC), than placing ourselves in the hands of a criminal. Think about that. Even the state police admit that the local officers are more dangerous than the local criminals. I can understand undercover officers wearing less than reputable clothing in an attempt to blend-in and shorts for the local bicycle officers, but doing the same is not acceptable for a uniformed officer. What's next? Flip-flops and shorts for officers? Maybe, like I saw in Commerce, GA years ago, they should take their shirts-off while driving the patrol car so they can get a little sun.
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 4:49:27 PM EDT
Last I checked No Knock Warrants were unconstituional. Officers MUST knock and announce, and the warrant (at least in my area) must be served between 0600 and 2200. pat
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 4:55:25 PM EDT
My husband would toss me one of his 4 M1A's and grab one for himself. The other two would be loaded and at our sides for backup. [frag] [frag]
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 6:01:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 6:01:25 PM EDT by Greg3]
[img]http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/fed/_grenades.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:16:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/5/2001 8:17:14 PM EDT by The Sniper]
Originally Posted By neverenuf: What would you do if your door suddenly came crashing down? With all the home invasions in this country and with criminals impersonating LEOs, How do you tell the difference? Do you shoot first and ask questions later?
View Quote
Now this is a less than ideal situation isn't it? Police officers are trained to identify themselves loudly and clearly if this is not already obvious from the uniform and situation. A team making entry in a no knock fashion should immediately upon breeching the door ID themselves. If they don't, they are violating SOP for all departments that I'm aware of. The question of whether to believe them or not is another matter. That one is a judgement call that you would have to make in a split second. To be honest I would have to be faced with it and it's particulars to know how I would react. Many times when up against the possibility of using deadly force - you have to follow your gut. I can tell you this... if a team is going to make entry into my home, they'd better be yelling who they are and be very convincing or I am more apt to "do whatcha gotta do". How many times have we heard of an entry team getting the wrong address - hey - it happens. Just better hope it never happens to you. [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:40:04 PM EDT
What if you KNOW it's the cops? Say it's 3 am and you get up to take the dog out to go. You look outside and see a dozen guys dressed in black out in front of your house. They are wearing ski masks and carrying machineguns. At first, you think home invasion. Then you can just make out the ATF on the side of a panel van. "Oh crap, it's a raid!", you realize. Despite your best efforts to obey all the gun laws, can you be 100% sure? You run through the possible outcomes: 1. they break in and kill you 2. they break in and plant evidence 3. they break in, seize your stuff and make one of your guns double fire after playing with it for 8 hours at the Quantico machine shop (that's the legal test) 4. they break in, rough you up, seize your stuff and trump up some charges So, if you live, you will be someone's cellbitch, or you will go broke fighting the charges. At this point, why not grab the AR-15, slide on your vest and SHOOT IT OUT?! you must be a dumb shit! You have done nothing.. Your out with your dog.. Hay, call out and ask what are you doing who are you looking for thay ainthere.. You have family you are not fucking rambo..
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 8:48:38 PM EDT
As i said dumb shit .. you said you took the dog out and could see this building.. why not stop it then ..you said you did nothing why not ask about the mistake..nothing is worth putting your kids at risk for a non-reason.. big dif if no prior knowlage..
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 9:00:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fight4yourrights: What if you KNOW it's the cops? Say it's 3 am and you get up to take the dog out to go. You look outside and see a dozen guys dressed in black out in front of your house. They are wearing ski masks and carrying machineguns. At first, you think home invasion. Then you can just make out the ATF on the side of a panel van. "Oh crap, it's a raid!", you realize. Despite your best efforts to obey all the gun laws, can you be 100% sure? You run through the possible outcomes: 1. they break in and kill you 2. they break in and plant evidence 3. they break in, seize your stuff and make one of your guns double fire after playing with it for 8 hours at the Quantico machine shop (that's the legal test) 4. they break in, rough you up, seize your stuff and trump up some charges So, if you live, you will be someone's cellbitch, or you will go broke fighting the charges. [size=3][b]At this point, why not grab the AR-15, slide on your vest and SHOOT IT OUT?!
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You either want to die real bad or are looking forward to spending a very long time away from home.... [sniper] [b]The Sniper
Link Posted: 5/5/2001 10:06:04 PM EDT
Well I am going to react the way I was trained, I will go down in a blaze of glory I guess. The Dog and I and probably at least one child, will not beleave a yell of "police", kick in my door and I am going to react, the dogs will react and the daughter will react. We will not go down alone. Sounds bad but at 3 in the morning I won't have much choise. And that is the problem with no knock raids. Rew
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 12:58:38 AM EDT
Lets not forget the real problem with no-knock raids. Here In Colorado Ismail Mena was the subject of a noknock raid. He was a legal immagrent and the police got the wrong address and raided his house. He grabbed his gun to protect himself and was shot to death. The Officer in charge was found not neglegent and was returned to duty. The house that was supposed to be raided was the one next door. So the Denver PD killed an innocent man and got away with it.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 1:37:13 AM EDT
So ya'll suggest I just saunter outside and ask the ATF to leave, that they have the wrong house. Did you hear about the Sheriff's deputies house that got raided? They stopped his cat to death for the fun of it and slammed his pregnant wife so hard into the wall she miscarried. They were lucky, they lived. Did you hear about the rich guy in Malibu? They wanted his property so bad their no-knock raid ensured their success via his death. How about the black guy in Virginia, I believe, that was the wrongful target of a drug raid, he's a partial vegatable and is in a wheel chair for life. How about Diallo? He reaches for ID, a standard way of complying with officers, and gets smoked with 43 rounds for his troubles. Look, walking out into your yard waving a copy of the Constitution and spouting about your so called "rights" sounds real good in theory, but more and more innocent citizens are winding up DEAD. Have you seen the size of some of these officers today? Can you say "steroids"? You wanted some doped up, andrenline junkie raiding your house? Do you think you will live to get to court? Do you think the government will LET you sue them? I do want to see someone fight back. A few bloody noses might wake up law enforcement to the fact that their Nazi tactics are killing innocent people.
Link Posted: 5/6/2001 1:40:07 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2001 1:40:09 AM EDT by AnotherPundit]
Well, look on it this way: if they raid your house, they're going to be armored, armed, and in large numbers, and you're going to be naked (or close to it), surprised, with lights in your face, and if you do Anything threatening (or maybe even if you don't) they're going to kill you. Don't think you're going to win a gunfight -- you'd have to be Sergeant York, and even he never had to deal with opponents wearing full-body armor. So that's that. The upside is that, if you shot them and lived, and were innocent of other crimes and could Prove they'd never identified themselves as police, then you'd probably have a decent chance of fighting the charges and winning. But, meanwhile, you'd be in prison. And it would be a long meanwhile. Of course, you'd be in prison if you hadn't shot 'em, too. On the whole, if you really think of this sort of thing as a danger, then your best bet would be to move off into the wilderness and get one of those "compound' things with a hundred of your closest buddies. Put in a lot of generators and so forth, all that waco goodness, but also make sure you have redundant connections to the internet & perhaps a broadcast radio or two (some way to broadcast live video feeds over the 'net would be best.) That'd be your only real chance -- hole up in "standoff mode" a la Waco, but broadcast your side of the story as heavily as possible. (That's the only thing I think Koresh could've done to survive that situation -- turn on a media barrage.) Short of that, if the ATF wants your ass, they're going to take it. Your best bet is going to be the courts, but even then it's risky -- overall, though, you'll best be able to fight for your rights, both in the courts and in the court of public opinion, if you stay alive. And you won't do that by leaping out of bed with your AR in one hand and your underwear in the other. ------------------------------- [url]http://www.AnotherPundit.com[/url]
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 6:09:27 AM EDT
Like so many other threads people get jumped up in the hoopla and damn the facts! pat
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:15:51 AM EDT
Great Advise!
Originally Posted By Valkyrie2001: Great idea Fight4yourrights. You will not have to worry about being Bubba's wife in jail for long because you will be getting the lethal injection. Don't you guys think anything past the immediate moment? You will be guilty of murder of a federal officer(s) in the performance of their duties. Your only hope is life on the lam. Even with a fair trial, even if the prosecutor did not paint you as a crazed nut with a gun to the media (and that's real likely), you still lose in court. Not to mention, what happens to your family while you're shooting it out with ATF? Most house walls don't stop bullets very well. Do you have a safe bunker to put your kids? Any chance they will be incinerated in there? Every asset you have will go to pay your lawyers or the families of the dead ATF agents. Your family will get nothing from your estate. In your scenario, call your lawyer, your neighbors and maybe 911. Get your SO to start the video camera. Walk out the door with your hands empty and away from your body. Say "Howdy Boys" to the ATF. If they have an arrest warrant they can legally arrest you. If they have a search warrant, they can legally search the house. Opposing them on the ground that they may try to plant evidence or that you don't like the legal standard they use is not a winning strategy in court. (Of course, if you get your family killed, you may get aquitted on the sympathy vote.)
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Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:16:28 AM EDT
Originally Posted By neverenuf: What would you do if your door suddenly came crashing down? With all the home invasions in this country and with criminals impersonating LEOs, How do you tell the difference? Do you shoot first and ask questions later?
View Quote
No Knocks are a loose/loose for the person being raided. Even if you have nothing to be found you are likely to be killed/injured and somthing will likely be planted if nothing is found. If I'm ever the victom of such a situation, I will defend as though the agressors are bad guys because of course they are till proven other wise, and if I survive, I can simply argue how did you expect me to hear "Police" yelled over all the shooting and flash grenades, and how did you expect me to read your windbreakers in a dark house with bright flashes blinding me? Unreasonable expectation! I was afraid for my life so I defended myself!
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:35:00 AM EDT
It's a Winchester defender 1300 loaded with R.E.W. # 4 buck low recoil defense loads, I sleep in a pair of sweat pants and the Dog is at the foot of the bed, the other is up stairs with the only daughter left at home. I do not plan to win an engagement, I also am to old and too set in my ways to go to prison. I don't use a shootme light and have trained the kids to never use a white light, guess what get blasted first The light on the side of an MP5 make's a great target for a low recoil fast opening spread of 27 .20 caliber pellets, if the guy has a cheek weld so much the better. Then thay can explain why they gunned down a retired military vet with a type 6 FFL in his own home. Probably blame it on (best "stripes" imatation) "Armmmmy training sir".
Link Posted: 5/7/2001 7:49:24 AM EDT
" I'll do this..." "I'll do that..." blah blah blah. What you WILL do in that situation is piss your pants. Has any of you ever experienced a dynamic entry by L.E.O.'s first hand? They are fast and furious and quite neccesary I assure you. During a skillfuly executed no knock entry you won't have time to grab your balls let alone you AR or whatever you have "at the ready". Having participated in many of these types of raids I can tell you that no knock warrents are not handed out willy nilly. You have to jump through alot of hoops to get one and D-Day type planning proceeds it. Get over your childish "I want to kill someone with my AR" fantasies. Continue to make war on cops and enjoy your criminals.
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