Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
User Panel

Site Notices
Posted: 4/21/2001 9:37:53 PM EDT
Greeting all,

I've finally sold off my expensive and never used .45 IPSC pistol, and am looking to get involved in rifle shooting...

I'm fairly new to rifle, but want something that

- is useful for self defense
- handy, light, easy to shoot
- useful in rifle classes at shooting schools, etc.

I've been looking at AR-15 type rifles, as they seem to be recommended from everything I've rad for what I'm looking for.

From reading this board, I'm under the impression a:

Bushmaster 16" VMatch flat top with a set of iron sites and down the road scope would be a good way to go?!?

I would rather get 1 good rifle. Super long range accuracy isn't a huge priority, but reliability and handiness are. From what I've read 16" gives up very little in terms of ballistics under 300 yards?!?

Could someone point me to some posts on what my options are, or offer any suggestions on how to get educated on this?

thanks in advance.
Link Posted: 4/21/2001 10:00:07 PM EDT
For what you have described i'd go with the 16" barrel ar.
Link Posted: 4/21/2001 10:03:31 PM EDT
just keep reading. i personaly went with a 16 bushmaster with a2 setup. i think 16in is the
most versatile. i would go chromed lined if you can afford it. it might prove a little less accurate but reliability, and maintenance make up for it.from what i gather the chromed lined barrel chambers are cut to mil spec while non chromelined are cut to tighter 223 commercial specs that are tighter.  just my opinion.
Link Posted: 4/21/2001 10:31:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/21/2001 11:00:04 PM EDT
If you did not get into pistol shooting after that expenditure what in your personal history makes you think you will ever get into rifle shooting.

Sounds to me like a cardboard mock-up of a rifle would suit you fine.
Link Posted: 4/22/2001 12:11:32 AM EDT
Thats the spirit Dave! Good way to help someone interested in AR's. A few more smartass remarks and I'll bet he runs to the gun store tomorrow to buy one.  
Link Posted: 4/22/2001 12:16:15 AM EDT
Hey Art - Did you make it to the shoot today? How'd it go?? I just happened to see your reply so I thought I'd ask.

Francis: I'd get a 16" Bushmaster A3 and get the carry handle when you buy it. Can't go wrong with that package.
Link Posted: 4/22/2001 12:41:39 AM EDT
I own a 20" (standard weight, 1-7" twist) Colt.  I'm also an engineer, so I'm going to look at this from a straight spec. viewpoint:

A Bushmaster or Colt "shorty" (16" barrel) is a nice choice, but in this scenario I would go Bushmaster.  While Colt's have slightly better accuracy because of their great out-of-the-box barrel, like you stated you want a carbine and will not need much accuracy beyond 300 yards, so any standard barrel will do for you.  The Bushmaster is the best option because 1.) it's probably cheaper than the "Colt Competition Carbines", and 2.) Colt uses non-standard pins/parts/auto-sear block (which is now an issue for me, because I'm installing a new trigger, but will not be able to switch and reattach this trigger to any other lower receiver that I have, because the pins will be different).

However, in your case, you just described in almost exact detail the rifle that AR15.com is selling, called the "AR15.com Limited Edition Group Purchase" rifle (or LEGP).  It's a...
- 16" non-chrome lined barrel (for improved accuracy)
- Fixed-telescopic 'M4' style buttstock
- Lower receiver with improved handgrip and safety selector (the lower receiver, I have heard, is the most impressive part of this piece...and a good lower should always be one of the top decisions in your rifle purchase)
- Flat-top, picattiny (sp?) rails...and they offer a set of tactical add-ons, which includes an incorporated COMPLETE rear-sight assembly (windage, elevation, and all) and a weaver rail in front, perfect for scope or AimPoint sights, etc.

I am considering buying this rifle simply for the LOWER RECEIVER ALONE, but overall I have heard almost nothing but good things from the guys who have actually gone up to the shows and seen it.  Many members here, upwards of 100, have purchased the rifle.  If you don't consider a Bushmaster 16" V-match (also a wise buy), then the LEGP is MOST DEFINATELY for you.

Link Posted: 4/22/2001 7:22:39 AM EDT
Welcome FrancisB! Try www.bushmaster.com.[:D]
Link Posted: 4/22/2001 2:59:04 PM EDT
Don't pay any attention to Hineline.  He gets this way for a week every month.

You might also want to look at Wilson Combat, ArmaLite, and/or Rock River Arms.

Also, you might want to look at the LEGP for sale on this board.
Link Posted: 4/22/2001 4:29:47 PM EDT

thanks for the terrific responses. I'll be reading the forums more and asking more specific questions over time. I really appreciate everyone's time and insightful answers.

As for Hinelines cardboard cutout, that would probably be useful for practicing moving around the house without dinging up the drywall, can I borrow yours?

Not that your post warrants a reply, but if you must know, I started doing IPSC back in the late 80's, and sort of rushed into ordering a .45 to be built. The smith took over 2 years to finish it (there's a long story involved but no one cares). In the interim, I decided the gamesmanship of IPSC wasn't really what I wanted to pursue. Being a better shooter was what I wanted to focus on, not getting a .38 super to stay competitive. I now carry a stock Glock 23 for CCW (love being in Oregon) and for most of my recreational shooting. I've taken several tactical shooting classes here in the NW, and am intrigued by what I've seen / read about the rifle courses. So I want to learn to do more with a rifle than go to the range and sit on a bench and punch targets (which is what I do now).

So you're right, I hope the AR is a better purchase than the race gun. I look at that as one of my dumber purchases.. It took me the better part of the last year to get 40% of what I put into it, and I consider myself fortunate.

Link Posted: 4/22/2001 4:45:45 PM EDT
...Many members here, upwards of 100, have purchased the rifle.  If you don't consider a Bushmaster 16" V-match (also a wise buy), then the LEGP is MOST DEFINATELY for you.
View Quote

Just a small note -- 180+ have been sold.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 2:00:37 AM EDT
Hey Art - Did you make it to the shoot today? How'd it go?? I just happened to see your reply so I thought I'd ask.
View Quote
   Gus...I never got to the shoot.. I had too many bugs to work out of the guns I was gonna take...I tried to post a reply earlier but the website was all screwed up...I just got back on tonight. I tried to email you but I don't know if that worked either... I found a 100 yd range only 1/2 a mile from my house up on the mountain. I never even knew it was there till my neighbor told me about it.I wanted to get the guns dialed in before going to any "shoots", so I joined the local range and spent the day fighting with my guns. One of the scope rings on my Carbon-15 flew apart after about 20 shots, so I threw the red-dot on it and the damn battery cover blew off after only 2 shots.(gun only weighs 3.9 lbs) So, I wasn't having much luck with that gun & wanted to get to the gunshop before they closed & return/exchange the rings & red-dot.Well...I got H.D. Weaver rings,Mil-spec red-dot...and a new AK-47 chambered in .223 ...(impulse buy). I heard so much about how reliable they are compared to AR's,So I figured I'd see for myself...Well I tried all day Sat. & Sun. to get the damn thing to shoot more than 1 shot without jamming up & skipping over rounds.Seems the .223 AK's are real fussy with mags.I had to do some welding/milling to get the bolt to strip rounds from the mag.Also lots of de-burring & polishing of feed ramp etc...Also had to order special .223 followers for mags...should be here by weekend...Can't wait to try it out & see if It works finally...It cycles by hand,just don't know if it shoots yet...    ART    [sniper]  
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 6:50:33 AM EDT
Francis--as one of the bottom feeders around here--one AR and only one month old--let me reply BUY THE LIMITED EDITION---excuse my screaming, please. I have benn haunting around here for over a year and looking at deals the entire time and nothing is going to beat the LEGP. I have had one in my hands and it is SWEET.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 6:57:46 AM EDT
How could you possibly go wrong purchasing the AR15 "LEGP"? It's made by Rock River Arms and the price can't be beat...worth some VERY SERIOUS CONSIDERATION!!!
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 7:00:29 AM EDT
Francis...you`re wrong about one thing....some DO care!....(ps..go with the legp)...[heavy]
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 10:49:41 AM EDT

I just bought a 20" bushmaster A3.  I had a similar set of requirements for my rifle, except that I wanted to shoot out to 600 yards so that is why I went with a 20" versus the 16" dissipator A3.  

All I can say is that the 16" is a good idea, except I would go with the dissipator instead of the shorty for two reasons.  Full sight radius, this is probably important since you said you wanted to use iron sights, and second, the gas block is the same location as it is on the 20" and from what I have read, the shorty's gas block is a little more sensitive to ammo because it is closer to the chamber.  Someone else on the list might better explain why.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 5:23:21 PM EDT

Now I'm a bit torn.

I was all set to "pull the trigger" (shooting humor) on the 16" bushy flattop.

However, I see everyone raving about the LEGP. Reading up on it on the forums it seems that many people love them, and several others don't.

I'm confused. I've read multiple posts that state RR's quality control is very poor. Also someone questioned if it's mil-spec.

So, are they of poor quality (I realize some of you have recieved ones which have been great), but with my luck I'll get the lemon.

Now I'm more curious about the LEGP...

BTW - I can get the bushy from a dealer here for ~730 if that helps...

Link Posted: 4/24/2001 5:36:47 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 5:46:15 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 7:14:49 PM EDT
In my honest opinion you can't have just one or their should be a law to that affect. Buy the LEGP shorty and an Armalite 20". you'll be glad you did. Great men need great TOYS!  [sniper]
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 7:40:08 PM EDT
If I hd the cash right now, I would go for the LEGP.
What a great time to be buying, months of upcoming shoots to break it in.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 7:40:25 PM EDT
I just purchased a Armalite 16" flattop to keep my SP-1 company, the Armalite seems to have a small edge in accuracy. I don't think you can go wrong with any that have been recomended to you, just get one and start having fun.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 8:00:14 PM EDT
I have a Colt A3 type flat top with a 20" barrel. I would consider going with the 20" barrel if you are shooting out to 300yards.
When the .223 bullet travels lower than 2700fps it is not as lethal.
Also the Limited Edition rifle has a collapsable stock that is fixed. I have seen some Bushmasters like this and I did not like them. I prefer the standard stock.
I would go with a Colt, Bushmaster, or Armalite.
I would probabbly stick with the Colt or Bushmaster because the Armalite has a muzzle break which is not needed and creates more noise and muzzle flash. Any 16" barrel without a flash hider will have more flash than the 20" barrel even if it does not have a muzzle break.
I would go to gun stores and look at as many AR-15's as you can before you make a decision.
One good thing is that if you get a 20" or a 16"
you can always buy another upper, a 16" or 20"
and switch them out.
Link Posted: 4/24/2001 9:27:53 PM EDT
About the Bushmaster Dissipator:
The gas block IS where the shorty model is.  The front sight IS where the std. 20" bbl. is located.  
The purpose of the Dissipator was to provide a full sight radius with a short bbl.
I've got a Pre-Ban version with all the "bad" features and a couple of modifications, one being the new TeleStyle stock, which is fixed and works with my new V-MATCH 24" upper, due to the full length buffer and spring.  The new upper has the full length gas tube to a shaved front sight.
I'd recommend the Dissipator A3 with the detachable handle/A2 sight and the TeleStyle stock.  No muzzle attachments.  Add a Hogue grip and the RediMag extra mag carrier.  You could scope it later if you like or add a red-dot and a flip up rear sight.  Very versatile combo.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 7:24:43 AM EDT
I'm confused. I've read multiple posts that state RR's quality control is very poor. Also someone questioned if it's mil-spec.

So, are they of poor quality (I realize some of you have recieved ones which have been great), but with my luck I'll get the lemon.

Now I'm more curious about the LEGP...
View Quote

Here is a thread where someone inquired about RRA -


I believe RRA will be putting their very best into these rifles, this gun will be great publicity for them.

If you did get a lemon then from what I read in the above link RRA will get it right fast!
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:14:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:24:28 PM EDT

The principles of RRA went to school at Eagle/Armalite.  The RRA guy was the head dog in charge of production at Eagle.

In my opinion (not so humble on this topic) Armalite makes some of the best stuff out there.  RRA is just as good and the price is a little lower.  I doubt that any one bad mouthing RRA actually has ever fondeled one.

SMRP for the RRA is around $650 + FFL comission, tax and license plates BTW.
Link Posted: 4/25/2001 4:31:53 PM EDT
I'm new to AR too, although i've been target shooting informally with pistols and rifles since I was a kid.  The AR is by far the most fun of anything.  I did what youre thinking about--went out and got an armalite 16 inch carbine (which, by the way, does have a lightweight barrel).  I have come to realize that a man needs more than one upper, which brings us to the second advantage of the AR series--modularity.  If i could do it all over again, i think I would have started with a 20 inch target upper and then went with a lightweight carbine upper as my second purchase. But either way works. I've been very happy with the armalite by the way.  Very fine quality rifle even though it is LOUD.  Blast from the brake will knock the hat off the guy next to you.  Advice learned the hard way: don't set up next to a guy shooting a black powder muzzle loader. [bd]
Close Join Our Mail List to Stay Up To Date! Win a FREE Membership!

Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!

You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.

By signing up you agree to our User Agreement. *Must have a registered ARFCOM account to win.
Top Top