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11/24/2017 4:44:23 PM
11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/27/2004 5:37:01 AM EST
Line-of-Sight Antitank

The Line-of-Sight Antitank (LOSAT) consists of Kinetic Energy Missiles (KEM) and a second-generation FLIR/video acquisition sensor mounted on an air-mobile, heavy HMMWV chassis. The LOSAT weapon system will help remedy the forced-entry/early-entry force lethality shortfall against heavy armor because it can deploy with both forces.

The Kinetic Energy Missile weighs 174 pounds, is 113 inches long and 6.4 inches in diameter. The current system provides for a three-man crew, but a crew of two can also conduct engagements.

The system is extremely mobile. The superior cross-country mobility of the HMMWV is not degraded by the addition of the LOSAT system to the vehicle. Additionally, the system can be moved across the battlefield by sling load with the UH-60L.

The key advantages of the LOSAT are the tremendous overmatch lethality of the KEM, which defeats all predicted future armored combat vehicles, and its deployability. The system can be reloaded in less than 10 minutes using on board materiel handling equipment.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:42:02 AM EST
old dupe, but worth seeing again
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:47:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 5:49:15 AM EST by Dave_A]
What's the range on that thing?

'Cause if it's not over 3,000m, mark it 'Target' and move on...

A HMMVW is a pretty clear target thru a 10x thermal scope...

Fortunately, it won't have any M1A2s shooting at it any time soon...


ETA: 4,000M!!! YEOUCH!!!

Now that is one dangerous little missile...

I'd sure hope our enemies don't have anything like this...
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:49:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
What's the range on that thing?

'Cause if it's not over 3,000m, mark it 'Target' and move on...

A HMMVW is a pretty clear target thru a 10x thermal scope...

Fortunately, it won't have any M1A2s shooting at it any time soon...



The LOSAT-equipped Expanded Capacity HMMWV has a combat weight of 11,634 lbs. The system has a range of several miles and is "near fire and forget." With a missile speed of 5,000 feet per second, it reaches maximum range in less than five seconds. The LOSAT missile is a hit-to-kill missile with no explosive warhead. It carries a long rod penetrator and destroys the target through the application of brute force. Each HMMWV chassis mounts four missile launch pods.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 5:49:59 AM EST
It sure beats the hell out of the TOW.


The HMMWV-based LOSAT missile has a range of several miles and is “near fire and forget.” With a missile speed of 5,000 feet per second, the KEM reaches maximum range in less than five seconds. The KEM is a hit-to-kill missile with no explosive warhead. It carries a long rod penetrator and destroys the target through the application of brute force. Each LOSAT vehicle mounts four missile launch pods on the roof of the HMMWV.
Some of the earlier firings in the LOSAT development test program include:

On February 26, 2003, the LOSAT system successfully destroyed a bunker field fortification. A second KEM traveled approximately 3,900 meters and impacted a main battle tank. Soldiers from the 82nd Airborne Division at Fort Bragg, NC, supported the tests.

On December 18 and on December 4, 2003, the LOSAT system successfully destroyed a stationary tank at approximately 1,000 meters and a crossing tank at approximately 2,400 meters.

On October 20, 2003, a stationary armored personnel carrier was destroyed at 720 meters.

On September 11, 2003, the LOSAT system was successful against a moving target in nighttime conditions at approximately 4,300 meters.

In August 2003, LOSAT obliterated a moving tank at short range.

In late July 2003, the weapon system destroyed a reinforced urban structure, proving that it can be effective against a variety of targets.



www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/our_news/pressreleases/04pressrelease/032504_LOSAT.htm
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:25:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:26:25 AM EST by LWilde]
Interesting video. I watched it several times and I'm struck by the characteristics of the second (middle) explosion as the missile arrives on target.

The point of impact appears to be on the frontal armor of the tank. AFAIK, there are no liquid combustables carried in that region of the tank. Just as the missile arrives and begins its burrowing into the frontal glacis plate armor of the tank there is a huge explosion and it looks like one consisting of primarily refined POL products. I've seen videos of 120mm and 105mm main gun rounds hitting enemy tanks and the usual effect is to blow the turret clean off of the enemy tank...but the INITIAL explosion lacks the fuel fire cloud seen in the Lockheed film. The other two impacts appear "normal".
Maybe my eyes are deceiving me...but it sure looks strange.

"Several mile range"? This is a line-of-sight weapon system. The normal visual horizon on the sea surface is about ten miles...on a bright sunny day. On land, the LOS is entirely dependent upon terrain...but certainly no MORE than at sea. 20kyds is a long distance. I suspect that this very energetic weapon doesn't have the gas to go that far. I think five miles (10kyds) is probably a real stretch.

I do think the missile is kewl...but I'm not sure I like the HMMWV as the prime firing platform.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:32:19 AM EST

Originally Posted By LWilde:
Interesting video. I watched it several times and I'm struck by the characteristics of the second (middle) explosion as the missile arrives on target.

The point of impact appears to be on the frontal armor of the tank. AFAIK, there are no liquid combustables carried in that region of the tank. Just as the missile arrives and begins its burrowing into the frontal glacis plate armor of the tank there is a huge explosion and it looks like one consisting of primarily refined POL products. I've seen videos of 120mm and 105mm main gun rounds hitting enemy tanks and the usual effect is to blow the turret clean off of the enemy tank...but the INITIAL explosion lacks the fuel fire cloud seen in the Lockheed film. The other two impacts appear "normal".
Maybe my eyes are deceiving me...but it sure looks strange.

"Several mile range"? This is a line-of-sight weapon system. The normal visual horizon on the sea surface is about ten miles...on a bright sunny day. On land, the LOS is entirely dependent upon terrain...but certainly no MORE than at sea. 20kyds is a long distance. I suspect that this very energetic weapon doesn't have the gas to go that far. I think five miles (10kyds) is probably a real stretch.

I do think the missile is kewl...but I'm not sure I like the HMMWV as the prime firing platform.



with thermals you can see several miles without much problem, with some of the new ones anyway(LRAS3 for example). and why not on a humvee? it gets around pretty darn well, there's tons of them in inventory, and the thermal signature on one is a lot less than an M1.

according to my dad, a Raytheon engineer, every time they put together a video like that, they ALWAYS add about 20 gallons of gasoline to the interior of the target for crowd pleasing effect.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:36:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By furball75:

Originally Posted By Dave_A:
What's the range on that thing?

'Cause if it's not over 3,000m, mark it 'Target' and move on...

A HMMVW is a pretty clear target thru a 10x thermal scope...

Fortunately, it won't have any M1A2s shooting at it any time soon...



The LOSAT-equipped Expanded Capacity HMMWV has a combat weight of 11,634 lbs. The system has a range of several miles and is "near fire and forget." With a missile speed of 5,000 feet per second, it reaches maximum range in less than five seconds. The LOSAT missile is a hit-to-kill missile with no explosive warhead. It carries a long rod penetrator and destroys the target through the application of brute force. Each HMMWV chassis mounts four missile launch pods.



Max effective range for 120mm from the M1A2 is 3,000-4,000m, IIRC...

That is also a high-speed hit-to-kill projectile (DU APFDS)...

Good standoff weapon, untill surviving tanks (if any) get within gun range of the launch platform...
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:37:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 6:37:39 AM EST by alloy6061]
More BIGGER, (Supposedly)BETTER, More EXPENSIVE stuff from the Military Industrial-Congressional Complex!!

Flame away!
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 6:38:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By TheRedHorseman:

Originally Posted By LWilde:
Interesting video. I watched it several times and I'm struck by the characteristics of the second (middle) explosion as the missile arrives on target.

The point of impact appears to be on the frontal armor of the tank. AFAIK, there are no liquid combustables carried in that region of the tank. Just as the missile arrives and begins its burrowing into the frontal glacis plate armor of the tank there is a huge explosion and it looks like one consisting of primarily refined POL products. I've seen videos of 120mm and 105mm main gun rounds hitting enemy tanks and the usual effect is to blow the turret clean off of the enemy tank...but the INITIAL explosion lacks the fuel fire cloud seen in the Lockheed film. The other two impacts appear "normal".
Maybe my eyes are deceiving me...but it sure looks strange.

"Several mile range"? This is a line-of-sight weapon system. The normal visual horizon on the sea surface is about ten miles...on a bright sunny day. On land, the LOS is entirely dependent upon terrain...but certainly no MORE than at sea. 20kyds is a long distance. I suspect that this very energetic weapon doesn't have the gas to go that far. I think five miles (10kyds) is probably a real stretch.

I do think the missile is kewl...but I'm not sure I like the HMMWV as the prime firing platform.



with thermals you can see several miles without much problem, with some of the new ones anyway(LRAS3 for example). and why not on a humvee? it gets around pretty darn well, there's tons of them in inventory, and the thermal signature on one is a lot less than an M1.

according to my dad, a Raytheon engineer, every time they put together a video like that, they ALWAYS add about 20 gallons of gasoline to the interior of the target for crowd pleasing effect.



I am aware of the abilities of thermal sights. I was using pre-production models at sea collimated to our weapons many years ago. You are entirely correct. The issue I have is with the physical horizon and the amount of energy that the missile has to go those "several miles".

And yes...I too am aware of the addition to "salt" the test. It's been done for years. That is why I posed the question to all of us here.

This test is a bit phony. Does that mean the LOSAT is a turkey? Certainly not.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:05:20 AM EST
LOSAT isn't "new". It's been around since the early 90's.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:16:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 9:17:45 AM EST by ArmdLbrl]
Its also almost obsolete. The Army bought only like 6 launchers and 108 rounds and now the project is unfunded.

The reason? Raytheon and Raufoss unveiled their Compact KEM or CKEM that offers nearly the same performance AND FITS IN A EXISTING TOW TUBE.
www.raytheon.com/newsroom/briefs/112102.htm


They could also scale it up slightly and it would match the Netfires NLOS missile launch containers dimensions of 7" round and 60" long.


However, even though unfunded, the existing launchers have, like the also cancelled M-8 light tanks, been pressed into service with units of the 82nd Airborne Division as a emergency capability anti-armor element.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:25:16 PM EST
Doesn't DU ombust when hitting the target due to superheating on contact due to hy speed? I forget the term.....

S.O.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 1:07:08 PM EST
When I was a TOW crewman in the early '90's (11H), my crew and I kinda kept an eye on the development of LOSAT. Along with FOG-M (fiber optic guided anti-armor muntion) and SADARM (an artillery-deployable anti-tank mine), LOSAT looked promising, but yes, it went unfunded and died. The army continued funding TOW-2A and TOW-2B, and fielded the ITAS thermal sight. I saw a demonstration of a TOW sight (it MIGHT have been ITAS) several years ago at Quantico, and I was impressed. The optics were better than what my unit had been using, and the new system incorporated simulation software in the combat package, meaning troops could train in the field, right up until the last minute, before flipping the switch to arm real missiles. We all know it would be like that in the field, but the idea of not lugging extra equipment around for simulation certainly was appealing!

I'd never heard of this new wonder-missile. Thanks for the info. I'll have to keep an ear out for it.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 1:30:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 1:32:17 PM EST by ArmdLbrl]
For all its awsome visual impact and its undoubted effectiveness at the receving end, the original LOSAT HVM is also 9 feet long and weighs 180 pounds- a two round cell weighs a even 400, the special Humvees have a folding CRANE in the back to reload and have to tow a trailer to carry 4 reload cells (8 missiles). Originally these missiles were to have been carried by a special tank destroyer version of the M8 light tank. That launcher turret would have had traverse and elevation and would have allowed engagement of aircraft as well as tanks and helicopters.

But obviously something with the same (or at least 90%) of the performance but can be fired from a Bradley instead of a speical vehicle is preferable.

I don't know how they intend to fire the Raytheon missile from a TOW ground launcher- look at the back blast! Even using cold launch won't work- they still cannnot eject the missile far enough from the launcher to get clear of the blast, for now the launchers HAVE to be armored. The Humvees used have special armored and air tight cabs to protect the crew.
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