User Panel
Posted: 10/5/2005 7:16:36 AM EDT
Im a member of dinky gun club in SE OK. I rarely shoot at our local range, having access to great private ranges 20-45 minutes away. Having said that, my local range is 5 minutes away and I often stop there after work to function check a build, try some reloads or take a newbie out for their first shooting experience.
The other day, I was fighting with a new semi 1919 build, trying to get it feed reliably at about 1830. A range neighbor and club member stopped by 'cause, "it sounds like wwiii" and wanted to see what we were doing. Realize we were shooting the 1919 off a vickers tripod and at most getting 8 rounds before having a FTF. I explained to him the gun, the build, the laws reqarding SA belt feds and offered to let him shoot it. He declined and left. Next week I get a FA m/11 in and Im having trouble getting it to fed blazer over lunch, and so I polish the chamber that evening. At about 2030, my buddy and I go out to the range and run 3 mags thru and start packing up (90 rounds at 1100 rpm goes quick). The sheriff shows up - paperwork shown, no probs. On the way out the club president shows up and is flipping out - red faced, sputtering, etc. and starts screaming that no FA is allowed since 2 days ago at the club monthly meeting - they decided to ban FA and belt feds, because theyre too loud and no shooting after dusk. I apologize for shooting at 2030 (and offer to personally apologize to any neighbors that were distrubed), but tell him other than the club sanctioned LEO FA training Ive done at the range that's it for my FA time at the range. He then calls me a liar and proceeds to spout how my 1919's are FA and they are just too loud. I then ask him the logic of why I as a physician would risk everything to make an illegal machine gun I can afford to buy. Like Im gunna risk my job, jail time, lossing my guns, $250K, everything when I can buy a real live belt fed machinegun for 15K! He cant explain that one. And if I did would I be fucking stupid enough to offer complete strangers a chance to play felony with me? I tell him that Im sorry I havent received the rule change in the not yet typed up monthly letter, and that I'll call Ms. Cleo next time to check for rule changes before I come out. I reassure him that my 1919's are not FA, they just look like them. And he's welcom to come over right then any examine them. He then says that, "we're a sportmans club here and we dont need those loud guns." I then ask him if all belt fed weapons are now 'banned' - "yes." What about all .308's since they're loud - "Dont know." He settles on, "no FA's, no belt feds, nothing that looks military." He still has trouble grasping the 1919 is not an MG. So the whole FA 'ban' stems from the 1919 function test and its 'loudness' no complaints arising from real FA's - period. Ive talked to several other club members (we have 450) and most have said/agreed that banning any type of legal firearm at the range is BS. Banning a gun 'cause it looks bad is no better than the DC gangs logic and cant be tolerated by the membership. So next week Im putting forward a challenge to the recent ruling (by 3 members) and asking for a vote. I'd like to hear your thoughts and logical arguments to see if Ive overlooked anything... sorry about the length |
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That kinda sums up how they feel. Be prepared to walk away from this club. |
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The club that I used to be a member of allowed any legal firearm. Period. And that was in California.
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Well that means they ban: Any mauser, and mauser derivate Any enfield derivative Any bolt action for that matter, as they all dervied from the same basic princicples used for war Any 1911s Any HK's Any Berettas Any BAR Seems like all guns look or derive from military service. Hmm... gonna have any shooters left? |
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how did the club president get elected?
when is the next election? |
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I take it you did not attend this monthly meeting in which this decision was made.Do they do a vote of the members in attendance to decide things like this?If so it sounds like either a majority of members or those in power have decided this to be the new policy.It seems to me unless you can get the prez. over-thrown or get a large majority of the members to back you it will be a lost cause.Besides if you could get this overturned you will probably get nothing but grief at this range from here on out.Sometimes you have to pick your battles,I say let these ass-hats have thier close minded ideals and shoot somewere else.
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your right, the owner should have said "nothing that looks like modern military". |
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+ 1,000,000 Tall Shadow |
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Who actually owns the club?
Their club, their rules. If you want it your way then run for office and make the necessary rule changes that you want. Short of that, find another club. |
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Beat me to it. They banned military weapons because they think that those weapons will draw negative publicity. They think the anti-gunners will leave them alone because they have chosen PC weapons. They are throwing you out of the sleigh hoping to appease the wolves. Next club meeting you need to bring this up. Make it clear that all gun owners are in this together. Remember that cut-up snake cartoon from the French and Indian War? Join or Die? Copy it, and re-label it. Shotgunners, hunters, Class III, etc. Make a stink - but don't be an ass. Make this about GUN CONTROL. |
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Personally, this more of gun control/ass hat issue to me. If the club vanished tomorrow, I would loss very little sleep. I feel its important to set this 'wrong' to right. Im sick and tired of gun owners screwing themselves. Several other members feel the same way.
This was an 'executive decision' by 3 old, ignorant retards. The president has tha job 'cause nobody else wants it - he's a retired army cook, that has nothing better to do then annoy folks at the range. He is gun ignorant and a pest in general. the words shooting skills and his cant be used in that same sentence. And he claims disability from agent orange exposure which pisses me off having a mother that was a nurse at An Kay (sp?) during tet and a father that did several tours/TDY in the cav and was a member of the 5th group from 65-70 in SE asia- neither of them claim disability from agent orange and I know my Dad was exposed. So I see a wrong perpetrated by an asshole, that called me a liar, that need fixed. If I get nothing accomplished other than pointed out publically how retarded this ignorant petty dictator is I'll be satisfied. |
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Aren't there one or two deer rifles that are also used as military sniper rifles? Doesn't this ban virtually all muskets, black powder rifles, 1911s, Beretta 92, Single Action Army revolvers, etc? Doesn't this ban Mossberg 500, 590, Winchester Model 12, Remington 870? Morons. Absolute morons. Jim |
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A retired army cook that won't allow military weapons. Something is wrong there.
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With credit given to John Ross:
THEY SAY: “Those assault rifles have no sporting purpose. You don’t need a 30-round magazine for hunting deer--they’re only for killing people.” WE SAY: “I compete in DCM High Power with my AR-15. You need a large-capacity magazine for their course of fire. My SKS is a fine deer rifle, and I’ve never done anything to give my government reason not to trust me blah blah blah.” (FLAW: You have implicitly conceded that it is OK to ban any gun with no sporting use. And eventually they can replace your sporting arms with arcade-game substitutes.) WE SHOULD SAY: “Your claim that ‘they’re only for killing people’ is imprecise. A gas chamber or electric chair is designed for killing people, and these devices obviously serve different functions than guns. To be precise, a high-capacity, military-type rifle or handgun is designed for conflict. When I need to protect myself and my freedom, I want the most reliable, most durable, highest-capacity weapon possible. The only thing hunting and target shooting have to do with freedom is that they’re good practice.” Something along these lines needs to be said. We should hang together or else we shall all surely hang seperately. |
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I would ask if that includes Remington and Mossberg 12 gauge shotguns too. They are loud and used by the military.
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I have a hard time thinking a CLUB would not put such a rule to a vote. Sounds like the range owner gives permission to the club to use his facility.
Any "Club" that does not put its bylaw changes to a vote is a dictatorship. And these are never fun. |
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+1-- When is the next election!!!! |
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Agreed. However, I'm not much one for "turning tail" and leaving (w/o a fight ). Now, I'm a gun- RIGHTS nut, not a "gun nut". So I can (usually) differentiate between calibers and why X is better than Y in situation A. That sort of thing. BUT when you guys start talking serious technical - I'm lost - and usually not into being "found". I've been kicking around an idea, and this might just be a good reason to assemble the info. What I need, is the "typical "sportsman's" rifle" that would basically be EQUAL in caliber, and function to say an ar15. Just need a name - a pick is even better both would be great. My basic idea is a flyer that shows a "muscle car" but NO "decals" or any "adornment" some "pastwel color (preferably) w/text running down the specs - v-8 (or str8-8 - whatever) W/a stamp across the photo of it that says "legal" then the SAME car - SAME specs etc... but THIS one has flame decals is cherry-red etc... it's stamp is "illegal". Then on the other side the "sportsman's rifle" w/"legal" stamp - and then the AR-15 w/an "Illegal" stamp. MIGHT even take it farther... "legal" vs. "illegal" based upon appearance. I've always said that "sportsmen" were the REAL "enemies" small minded .... (no offense intended to any spotsmen who frequent this site, as you are likely "reformed" sportsmen and not "scared" by the eevvviiilll black guunnnnzzzz!" . |
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I wonder if bowling leagues and model train clubs draw suppurating ass-boils to leadership positions, or if it's just gun clubs/ranges. I am so sick of dealing with and hearing about these shitburgers that I almost don;t want to shoot any more.
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not quite entirely sure i totally follow this, but i think i get the basic idea. as far as the "sporting" rifle of equal (equivalent work?) caliber and function to an AR-15, i'd have to say (from my limited experience) a Ruger 10/22 in .22 WMR would come closest. i don't know of any SA .223 rifles that don't look military. your example using an AR-10 would be easier. for that, you could use a current production Browning BAR in .308 Win. |
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870, 1100, 700's would be banned then. M24 and M40 = 700. Doesn't the navy have 870's and 1100's on ships?
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Except for a handful of brands and calibers, nearly every firearm ever produced was either intended for war or is a copy of a firearm intended for war.
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Next time show up with one of Barrett's bolt action .50's.
Seriously, I've walked away from several ranges due to the stupidity of their old floppy hat wearing "hunter" wannabe leaders. If you can change it, then do it. Don't be surprised if they ignore your logical arguments in favor of their own prejudice. Some of these idiots don't deserve any rights. |
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You put that on a shirt and I'll wear it. Well said. |
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Everytime I hear about these things happeneing at clubs I'm even more thankful for mine. I'm sorry to hear about this at your club. I wonder though how a semi 191 can be louder then say a semi of any other type in 30-06 or 308. I just don't see it and doubt that it had anything to do with the ban, or at least not as much to do with it as the "military look". Sounds like ya'll need a change of leadership at that there club. Start trying to get support from other members and come the next election for board members vote out the old board.
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Ruger Mini-14 shoots .223. Gets lots of use as a truck gun / ranch rifle / deer rifle. Jim |
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+1 Ripe for those that can divide and conquer. |
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Man that situation sucks. I'd be curious if a vote were taken at your club, whether FA and military weapons would be accepted by the majority of the shooters in the club. Maybe you can stage a coup?
Our range allows FA, but requires owners to get cleared by the club board before they use the range,due to possible issues with unaimed fire or shots over the berm. Possibly that's an option if you can compromise. Luckily,my local club board is mostly old guys who are all good hard core 2nd amendment absolutists. |
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Similar situation at our local club. I simply walked away. ARFCOM member Greenhorn had a few issues with this club and ended up getting voted out by the membership. I stood in his defense (even though I've never met the guy) and it opened up a whole slugfest (no pun intended) over bump firing, military-style firearms, full-auto, etc...
It came down to the fact that the landowner was a complete and total raging asshat, and no matter what the puppets at the club voted, he overruled what he didn't like. So... the club always went along with whatever he wanted so they could have their little flintlock and skeet range. I said to hell with this crap and joined another club. |
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The only way I can support a ban on FA fire is if unaimed fire could leave the range and possibly do harm to someone/something downrange.
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All those bolt action deer rifles sure look like springfields and enfields and mausers to me. Didn't russia once adopt the M1895 winchester in 7.62 X 54 for their military? Guess all lever actions are also banned then.
Good luck, I hope you make these silly ignorant bastards look like fools and be ashamed of themselves. Might be time to become a club officer and make sure that the term "any legal firearm" get added to the bylaws. Still wondering how 3 people are allowed to make an executive decision. Most clubs require a certain percentage of the membership be present for a vote to be legal. Might look into that point also. |
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I guess you become an elitest when you run a gun club.
I went with my father-in-law and brother-in-law to a shooting range outside of Springfield Illinois. I had never been there before, so I asked questions. Indoor pistol range, outdoor rifle range. Brother-in-law was a marine, but owns few guns. He has always wanted to shoot my MAK-90 (AK-47 varient). I mentioned shooting it at this range, and the owner said "nope, I don't allow non of them guns that can shoot steel bullets". I looked at the rack behind him, and there were other high-power rifles, so I asked about an AR-15. He said sure. THIS guy was simply prejudice against communist hardware. (much like several readers if this forum) I thanked him for his time, and left. I advised my in-laws to spend their money elsewhere. |
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You should follow through with your challenge, but something tells me that you may be outvoted. It sucks that the gun community is so poisoned by liberalism.
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This coming from a Californian. I commend you, sir, and agree with you totally. I hate how supposed RKBA supporters never say that it's not about hunting or sporting. No one has the balls to simply say "the second amendment is not limited to recreation" Fuck! |
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if you always walk away eventually there will be no more clubs left to go to. The future is all like this, enjoy it while you can.
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Godspeed my brother. |
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I know it could be a losing battle, but I would fight it anyway.
You said you really don't care too much about the club, so the fight would not be for you, rather for education of the other members. We need everyone, especially all gun owners to realize we're fighting a battle with the anti's, and if we divide, they win, period. I say take any & every opportunity to educate people & show them there's no reason to bow down to the PC bullshit. .02 |
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First is it actually a club with membership? If so get the bylaws, then a copy of roberts rules of order. It is doubtful they can change or restrict memberships, or change the purpose of the club without a full membership vote.
Take all the friends you can to the next membership meeting. Be ready for a bloodbath. Private clubs of all types are the most political and crazy organizations in existence. These things usually end with one group being thrown out (when you lose) or all of them quiting when you win. |
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My local range allows Class III weapons in the IDPA/IPSC pits.......and semiauto only shooting on the regular range.......making it one of the best gun clubs in the area...........many other ranges are whiney trap shooters who get snobby when they see black rifles.......
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Thank you. I may have been born here and I still live here but I was raised by God fearing southern folks that taught me the difference between wrong and right. |
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Use the democratic process to your advantage. Build support among members, have EBR types join the club, then take over. Reverse the F/A rule.
Then ban bolt rifles from August - February. |
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I read the first post but not all replies.
My opinion is that the club is either a. stupid b. worried about insurance/liability/other legal matters. I don't know what it takes to run a gun club or a gunshop/range, but I would imagine that they must be insured. From the way it was banned suddenly and the dude was so furious, it could be he got some notice from his ins. co. that he was going to take it in the caboose on his rate unless he dropped FA shooting. But, who really knows. Either condition a or b is going to be tough to fight. Forget it. Move on and find a more suitable place. |
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Really, really simple.
Get a complete list of the membership. Send every one of them a letter and a ballot form. Contents of said form: Should this club fully support and uphold ALL legitimate firearms rights as protected under the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, or should it choose to selectively allow only the few types of firearms that some closed-minded types like to see, even though to do so would be to act like those who would like to ban all of our guns in time and if they can? Vote YES to ensure that the club allows ALL legal firearms. Vote NO to ban firearms that certain closed-minded types simply don't like or understand. I invite all those who would vote YES to cancel their club memberships and demand refunds of all their recently paid club dues IF the result of this ballot is in favor of the NO vote. United we shall stand. Divided, we shall certainly lose all of our gun rights. That's what I'd send to the membership! Yes, I would. CJ |
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Since you are a pysician and have so much money, show up at the next meeting with a $10,000 donation to improve the range and they will vote your way.
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