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Posted: 5/12/2004 9:07:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:39:01 AM EST by monkeyman]
Last night on the history channel, they had a interesting show about Nazis after WWII who formed an insurgent army to fight against the Allied occupation? These Nazis were known as Werewolves and were formed near the end of the war to retailiate against collaborators and attack allied occupying troops. They used ambushes and lots of improvised explosives to kill civilians and soldiers alike. This was a pretty unknown story (I wasn't aware of armed resistance in Germany for several years after the war).

The relevance of this to current events is that they, like the "resistance" in Iraq are fighting as civilians in civilian clothes. The Allies in WWII, dealt with the werewolves, not as prisoners of war but as insurgents violating the terms of surrender. Werewolves were executed. Eventually, those who were left lost their desire to do bad things against us and went home.

So the discussion with my teenage kids last night was. Why doesn't the US deal with the insurgents in Iraq like we did with the Werewolves after WWII?

After much discussion my family decided, unanimously I might add, to the following rules.

1. No more mocking, hazing or being impolite to prisoners. (my 14 year old daughter's contibution)

2. Iraq army personel who were captured in the war are to be held as POWs for 2-5 years after which they are to swear aligiance to the new government of Irag and released under probation.

3. Afgan soldiers who are from Afganistan are to be held the same as the above and let out when they denounce the dark side and swear alligience to the government of Afganistan.

4. Soldiers who fought against us in either Afganistan or Iraq and are not from either of those two countries are terrorists and will be executed immediately and that means anyone, regardless of national origin.

5. Anyone in Iraq or Afganistan (other than authorised persons) who picks up a weapon, is seen or caught with a weapon including explosives, provides weapons, harbors someone with a weapon, is seen with someone with a weapon, is considered an insurgent/terrorist (and that includes news crews) and subject to attack when seen and/or execution when caught. (can you say, "target rich environment?") And yes I am talking about gun control, at least until things settle down.

6. Anyone going to Iraq who is not a Iraqi citizen and/or without US permission is considered an insurgent/terrorist as is automaticaly subject to attack and/or execution. This includes anyone sneaking over the border or any citizen of a foreign country without the proper credentials or in possesion of any kind of weapon (see #5 above).

These rules will be posted in advance and starting June 1, 2004 will be strictly enforced with no exceptions.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:10:58 AM EST
Those are sound ideas that I agree with.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:18:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:19:49 AM EST by vito113]
IIRC the last attack on Allied Forces that was attributed to the Werewolves occured in early 1947.

What defeated the Werewolves was the almost total news blackout imposed by the Allies on their activities. No one ever got to hear about there success, only time they were mentioned was when they were captured or killed. This had a disasterous effect on their moral. The groups started to think they were the last or only people fighting and gave up.

If we only reported when the Iraqi insurgents were defeated on the News, and played down the successes, I am sure they would also lose heart pretty quickly. Unfortunately, every Iraqi knows that any incident will get prime time news.

Andy
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:23:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
1. No more mocking, hazing or being impolite to prisoners. (my 14 year old daughter's contibution)

2. Iraq army personel who were captured in the war are to be held as POWs for 2-5 years after which they are to swear aligiance to the new government of Irag and released under probation.

3. Afgan soldiers who are from Afganistan are to be held the same as the above and let out when they denounce the dark side and swear alligience to the government of Afganistan.

4. Soldiers who fought against us in either Afganistan or Iraq and are not from either of those two countries are terrorists and will be executed immediately and that means anyone, regardless of national origin.

5. Anyone in Iraq or Afganistan (other than authorised persons) who picks up a weapon, is seen or caught with a weapon including explosives, provides weapons, or is seen with someone with a weapon, is considered an insurgent/terrorist (and that includes news crews) and subject to attack when seen and/or execution when caught. (can you say, "target rich environment?") And yes I am talking about gun control, at least until things settle down.

6. Anyone going to Iraq who is not a Iraqi citizen and/or without US permission is considered an insurgent/terrorist as is automaticaly subject to attack and/or execution. This includes anyone sneaking over the border or any citizen of a foreign country without the proper credentials or in possesion of any kind of weapon (see #5 above).

These rules will be posted in advance and starting June 1, 2004 will be strictly enforced with no exceptions.




Dam good suggestions!
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:35:14 AM EST
Yeah, Nazi resistance after WWII is a little known story. I don't know much about it either, other than that it happened. Also, I believe, in Japan, too. For me the most interesting part about this is that it completely conflicts with the mythology that the liberals are in love with that the Marshall Plan and the reconstruction were smooth events that flowed forth without incident because "that" was a "different time" and conditions were "so" different from the situation in Iraq, blah, blah, blah. I got news for everybody. It ain't that different. Unfortunately, because of global news coverage and internet photography, we're not able to handle the situation the same way.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:43:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:44:29 AM EST by monkeyman]
RE: Monkeyman family rules for dealing with a-holes in Iraq/Afganistan

I am adding a new rule.

#7-Upon release, repatrioted Afgan and Iraq soldiers will be given a free pass to Disneyland Paris and coupon for a free basket of wings at Hooters.


Heck, we gotta let them know what they are missing!
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:44:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:
IIRC the last attack on Allied Forces that was attributed to the Werewolves occured in early 1947.

What defeated the Werewolves was the almost total news blackout imposed by the Allies on their activities. No one ever got to hear about there success, only time they were mentioned was when they were captured or killed. This had a disasterous effect on their moral. The groups started to think they were the last or only people fighting and gave up.

If we only reported when the Iraqi insurgents were defeated on the News, and played down the successes, I am sure they would also lose heart pretty quickly. Unfortunately, every Iraqi knows that any incident will get prime time news.

Andy



There is an OUTSTANDING military thriller based on the Werewolves and their activities at the end of the War called "the Berkut" ( I cannot remember the name of the author at the moment) lemme tell ya, one of the best fictional war novels I have ever read.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:51:47 AM EST
JOSEPH HEYWOOD – 'The Berkut'

Andy
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:55:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:59:07 AM EST by Feedingcannibal]
Werwolf!: The History of the National Socialist Guerrilla Movement, 1944-1946
by Alexander Perry Biddiscombe




The Nazi resistance or partisan movement began in 1944 as the Allies began to dislodge the German army from occupied territories. Biddiscombe draws on detailed archival materials to describe how support for a resistance movement came from a variety of competing interests within the Third Reich. First established as part of Himmler's SS, then coupled with the Hitler Youth, the Werwolf groups were subsequently dominated by the military who saw their usefulness in slowing the Allied advance. In analyzing the active role of the Werwolf in partisan resistance, the author presents many detailed descriptions of attacks on Allied soldiers and collaborating Germans (sniping, decapitation wires, assassinations, poisonings, etc.) and sabotage actions. He documents a few cases involving children as young as 9 or 10 years old (p.62 and p.64) and many conducted by teenagers (pp.59 ff.).




Amazon link.

Link Posted: 5/12/2004 9:58:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 9:59:58 AM EST by SteyrAUG]
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 1:43:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By vito113:
IIRC the last attack on Allied Forces that was attributed to the Werewolves occured in early 1947.



The first time I ever heard of them was in an interview with James Best-otherwise known as Sheriff Roscoe P Coltrane from the Dukes Of Hazard TV show. He was taking about his military service & how he missed the missed all the heavy fighting of WW2 but saw some action during the occupation dealing with these die hard true believer knuckleheads.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 1:48:32 PM EST
2, 3, 4 all suck. I am not ready to release anyone who has already taken up arms against my military.

Summary executions for them, with the notation on their mass gravesight to wit: "This to awaits you if you defy in any way the United States"
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 2:35:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
The Werewolves were never large in number, organized or particularly effective. The organized wehrmacht couldn't stop us, what makes anyone think the remnents could?

The big, giant difference between post war Germany and post war Iraq is the Germans had been made to understand they LOST.

This is why the werewolves had to flee to the mountains. Had they stayed in urban areas the local population would have turned them over to prevent US reprisals.

This is the key difference between Germany and Iraq.

Germany knew the war was over and just wanted to rebuild. Only Hitler kept it going, once dead Doenitz surrendered.

The Iraqis, because we fought a war of liberation rather than a war of domination/occupation, do NOT yet realize they have lost. As a result inurgents and terrorists are seen as heros/liberators.



You are wrong yet again. Insurgants are not seen as heros or liberators by the Iraqis. That is why Al Sadrs men keep being found dead in gutters...
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 5:42:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By hielo:
2, 3, 4 all suck. I am not ready to release anyone who has already taken up arms against my military.

Summary executions for them, with the notation on their mass gravesight to wit: "This to awaits you if you defy in any way the United States"



My thinking is that some of these guys were probably forced to fight against us. Also, one can't really blame someone who wants to fight for his country as misguided as his country might be.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 5:50:04 PM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:
Yeah, Nazi resistance after WWII is a little known story. I don't know much about it either, other than that it happened. Also, I believe, in Japan, too. For me the most interesting part about this is that it completely conflicts with the mythology that the liberals are in love with that the Marshall Plan and the reconstruction were smooth events that flowed forth without incident because "that" was a "different time" and conditions were "so" different from the situation in Iraq, blah, blah, blah. I got news for everybody. It ain't that different. Unfortunately, because of global news coverage and internet photography, we're not able to handle the situation the same way.



The Marshall Plan was an afterthought. It wasn't signed until April '48, three years after cessation of hostilities. It worked well, but no way can it be said we had a plan for after the victory. Russians never had a plan except to let them suffer.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:05:19 PM EST
My only problem with your list is the use of the term "soldier". These people are not soldiers.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:05:43 PM EST
Interesting. I had read once that the U.S. suffered no casualties in Germany once the surrender was announced. Looks like I need to do some research and not trust liberal communists, er, I mean, columnists.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:10:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Coolio:
Also, I believe, in Japan, too.


Have any sources for this? Not being a smartass, I'm just curious. I'm consider myself a decent amateur WW2 historian,
and I've never heard about Japanese resistance after the war. Even from vets who were stationed there afterwards with the
Occupation. To a man, they've all said that once the Emperor said, "That's it," that they knuckled under and was done with it.

I'd be interested in hearing otherwise. Thanks.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:17:03 PM EST
I read a bit about this organization in a book published in the 1970s called "Forged in Fury." IIRC, the book was primarily about the formation of the armed Jewish Underground in Europe and the Middle East. These Jews ambushed many of the Werwolfs and less known Nazis. Their activities were also kept under wraps as the Allies didn't want the world to know about this little bit of score settling. Also, the Allies didn't mind Nazis being killed.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:28:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Mahatma8Rice:
I read a bit about this organization in a book published in the 1970s called "Forged in Fury." IIRC, the book was primarily
about the formation of the armed Jewish Underground in Europe and the Middle East.


Author is Michael Elkins, ISTR. Deals with resistance from the `30s through the war years, at least.
I never got the chance to finish it. I picked a copy of it up at the 'Stars & Stripes' (in Germany, no less - how is that for irony?), but
it was in the box of books & other personal items that "disappeared" when I PCS'd back to the States.....
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:29:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
Last night on the history channel, they had a interesting show about Nazis after WWII who formed an insurgent army to fight against the Allied occupation? These Nazis were known as Werewolves and were formed near the end of the war to retailiate against collaborators and attack allied occupying troops. They used ambushes and lots of improvised explosives to kill civilians and soldiers alike. This was a pretty unknown story (I wasn't aware of armed resistance in Germany for several years after the war).

The relevance of this to current events is that they, like the "resistance" in Iraq are fighting as civilians in civilian clothes. The Allies in WWII, dealt with the werewolves, not as prisoners of war but as insurgents violating the terms of surrender. Werewolves were executed. Eventually, those who were left lost their desire to do bad things against us and went home.

So the discussion with my teenage kids last night was. Why doesn't the US deal with the insurgents in Iraq like we did with the Werewolves after WWII?

After much discussion my family decided, unanimously I might add, to the following rules.

1. No more mocking, hazing or being impolite to prisoners. (my 14 year old daughter's contibution)

2. Iraq army personel who were captured in the war are to be held as POWs for 2-5 years after which they are to swear aligiance to the new government of Irag and released under probation.

3. Afgan soldiers who are from Afganistan are to be held the same as the above and let out when they denounce the dark side and swear alligience to the government of Afganistan.

4. Soldiers who fought against us in either Afganistan or Iraq and are not from either of those two countries are terrorists and will be executed immediately and that means anyone, regardless of national origin.

5. Anyone in Iraq or Afganistan (other than authorised persons) who picks up a weapon, is seen or caught with a weapon including explosives, provides weapons, harbors someone with a weapon, is seen with someone with a weapon, is considered an insurgent/terrorist (and that includes news crews) and subject to attack when seen and/or execution when caught. (can you say, "target rich environment?") And yes I am talking about gun control, at least until things settle down.

6. Anyone going to Iraq who is not a Iraqi citizen and/or without US permission is considered an insurgent/terrorist as is automaticaly subject to attack and/or execution. This includes anyone sneaking over the border or any citizen of a foreign country without the proper credentials or in possesion of any kind of weapon (see #5 above).

These rules will be posted in advance and starting June 1, 2004 will be strictly enforced with no exceptions.



Well said.

I pretty much came to the same conclusions last night after watching that program.

It's very frustrating that we can't learn from our own friggin history,I mean it's not like we havn't done this before and don't know how.We've got a blueprint ,lets use it!

One thing those fellas in the past didn't have to deal with is the press doing all they can to undermine our purposes and destroy moral in this country every chance they get.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:33:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 6:59:05 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 7:15:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 7:20:49 PM EST by Atencio]
edit: boy did I misread a post. Anyway, here is some stuff on Japanes war crimes.

Japnese war crimes

The bad thing is most of more nortorious individuals were given immunity by our government for research information. Unit 731 was in to some pretty wild stuff. Weird how you don't hear much about it. But then you don't hear a lot in general about Japanese atrocities.

"Trial.
Thirty people were brought to trial by an Allied War Crimes Tribunal in Yokohama, Japan, on March 11, 1948. Charges included vivisection and wrongful removal of body parts; 23 were found guilty of various charges. Five of the guilty were sentenced to death. None of the death sentences was carried out. By 1958, all those convicted were free. The Soviet Union also held trials. Sentences there were carried out.

War Crimes Trial
High-level Japanese war criminals were tried by the International Military Tribunal for the Far East. The prosecution team was made up of justices from eleven Allied nations: Australia, Canada, China, France, Great Britain, India, the Netherlands, New Zealand, the Philippines, the Soviet Union and the United States of America. The Tokyo trial lasted two and a half years, from May 1946 to November 1948. The principle charges were making aggressive war and allowing atrocities against POWs and civilians.

The Verdict
Two of the twenty-eight defendants died of natural causes during the trial. One had a mental breakdown on the first day of trial, was sent to a psychiatric ward and was released in 1948. The remaining twenty-five were found guilty. Seven were sentenced to death by hanging, sixteen to life imprisonment, and two to lesser terms. All seven sentenced to death were found to be guilty of inciting mass-scale atrocities, among other counts. Three of the sixteen sentenced to life imprisonment died between 1949 and 1950 in prison. The remaining thirteen were paroled between 1954 and 1956, with less than eight years in prison for their crimes against millions of people."
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:22:28 AM EST
My understanding of the Japanese after WWII was that there was a few holdouts who would snipe or attack occupation troops on some of the islands but there was no organized resistance.

I also read that there were a few teams of Allies and some independent Jews who hunted down Nazis and killed them right after the end of the war.

It also occures to me that some of these Nazis could have been connected to the Werewolf organization.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:42:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By Tanker06:

Originally Posted By Coolio:
Also, I believe, in Japan, too.


Have any sources for this? Not being a smartass, I'm just curious. I'm consider myself a decent amateur WW2 historian,
and I've never heard about Japanese resistance after the war. Even from vets who were stationed there afterwards with the
Occupation. To a man, they've all said that once the Emperor said, "That's it," that they knuckled under and was done with it.

I'd be interested in hearing otherwise. Thanks.



I could be wrong, Tanker, just something I heard about. Unfortunately I can't cite a source.
However, I do know a guy at work who used to live in Japan (and married a Japanese) and he tells stories about ex-japanese army guys who still to this day are organized into rowdy "clubs" and are actually used occassionally by local politicians to intimidate opponents. Apparently, the army in Japan is still to this day "disgraced" and these guys are something of outcasts. I think my overall point is that shit never "goes away" completely. There are always, as Donald Rumsfeld puts it, "deadenders" who just have no stake in a country's changing future after a war. And reconstruction is never "seemless".
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 3:53:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 3:54:19 AM EST by Tanker06]

Originally Posted By Coolio:
...he tells stories about ex-japanese army guys who still to this day are organized into rowdy "clubs"...
I think my overall point is that shit never "goes away" completely. There are always, as Donald Rumsfeld puts it,
"deadenders" who just have no stake in a country's changing future after a war.


Met a few German vets like that when I was stationed over there. They weren't Nazi's, just Wehrmacht vets who were pissed
that Hitler had talked the German people into the war, which they had then been drafted into.

I'd pointed out that from what I'd read/seen/been told, that it seemed that most of his countrymen had willingly gotten into it.
To a man, they pretty much shrugged it off, commenting on that's what happens when you were young, have more testosterone
than braincells, then add a liked-for-the-time politician to the mix.
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