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10/30/2020 2:42:12 PM
Posted: 12/31/2003 1:18:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 1:20:43 AM EDT by clean_cut]
In England in 1968, a young girl named Mary Bell killed two toddlers, and injured several others. The eerie part is how the girl exhibited no remorse, and actually laughed as the police arrested her and her accomplice, a 13 yo girl.

The murders were gruesome.


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[Three-year-old] Brian was found covered with grass and purple weeds. He had been strangled. Nearby, a pair of broken scissors lay in the grass. There were puncture marks on his thighs, and his genitals had been partially skinned. Clumps of his hair were cut away. The wounds were bizarre: "There was a terrible playfulness about it, a terrible gentleness if you like, and somehow the playfulness of it made it more, rather than less, terrifying," said Inspector James Dobson. Brian's belly had been signed "M" with a razor blade. This cut would not be apparent until days later. It appeared that someone had imprinted an "N", and that a fourth mark was added (by a different hand?) to change the "N" into a "M".
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"Murder isn't that bad, we all die sometime anyway." -- Mary Bell to guard


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During the course of her incarceration, the women guards got to know Mary better, describing her as confident, intelligent and "cheeky." Some of Mary's casual comments would shock the police women, but others saw her as a scared little girl who had no comprehension of the enormity of her actions. In the middle of the night Mary would "bolt upright." Mary's hostility had an almost naive quality: while tightly grabbing a stray cat by the neck, a guard told her not to hurt the cat. Mary allegedly replied, "Oh, she doesn't feel that, and anyway, I like hurting little things that can't fight back." In another incident, a police woman said that Mary said she'd like to be a nurse, "because then I can stick needles into people. I like hurting people."
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"He called me a murderer and I grabbed his hair and smashed his face into his dinner."  -- Mary Bell


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Perhaps the greatest tragedy, if true, are Betty's[the mother] use of Mary during her prostitution. In what she calls "one of the worst cases of child sexual abuse I have ever encountered," Sereny recounts the horrors that Mary had to endure as her mother's sexual prop. No other relatives, including Mary's younger brother, were aware of this abuse, or would confirm it. Yet this would certainly help to explain Mary's erratic behavior. If she had been violated herself, the need to violate others might incite her to the abuse of her own little victims.
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As a child, Mary was described as very manipulative and intelligent. As an adult, being interviewed by Gitta Sereny, she overly performs her sorrow, even to the writer's suspicions: "Her recovery from these terrible bouts of grief, however, was astoundingly quick, and at first these rapid emotional shifts raised doubts in me."
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When Cries Unheard [Mary's autobiography] was published in 1998, it ignited a firestorm over criminals profiting from their deeds. Mary was paid for her efforts, which infuriated so many that Prime Minister Tony Blair publicly decried her pay. Laws were written to prevent others, including serial killer Dennis Nilsen, from doing the same. Mary's hope for the book was to "set the record straight." She thought that if she told her story, the media would leave her alone.
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On May 21, 2003, BBC Online reported that child killer Mary Bell had been granted lifelong anonymity.
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"But what I want most of all is a normal life." -- Mary Bell


Mary Bell now resides in England with her husband and teenage daughter. Her daughter found out about her mother's identity as the infamous Mary Bell.


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But Mary says her daughter has accepted her mother's identity, and forgives her. "But Mum, why didn't you tell me? You were just a kid, younger than I am now," she said, according to Mary.
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So, instead of being executed, this woman was given a chance at a normal life, despite displaying deep psychopathic tendencies.


At 11 yo, during the times of the murders:



At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 2:06:18 AM EDT
"So, instead of being executed, this woman was given a chance at a normal life, despite displaying deep psychopathic tendencies".

"At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL"

I am speechless! [shock]  But again, how could you execute an 11 year old girl who had to endure such an abusive childhood.

What happened to her 13 years old accomplish?
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 2:57:32 AM EDT
I'd do her.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 3:10:41 AM EDT
Ummmmmm
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 5:41:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By second:
I am speechless! [shock]  But again, how could you execute an 11 year old girl who had to endure such an abusive childhood.
View Quote


A rabid dog doesn't know any better either but you still put it down, for it's own sake as well as society.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 5:44:16 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 5:44:50 AM EDT
"He called me a murderer and I grabbed his hair and smashed his face into his dinner." -- Mary Bell
View Quote
That'll teach 'em!
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:20:13 AM EDT
Mary Bell was born in England in 1957. Her brief childhood consisted of drug overdoses and the feeling of being unwanted. Her father lived with her and her younger brother but Mary was instructed by her mother to call him uncle so they could collect government assistance. Her mother is often blamed for her psychopathic behavior. Mary's mother, Betty, would often leave her with relatives and even total strangers. Relatives would often beg to keep mary but betty would always come back for her because she liked the attention that Mary attracted. Mary overdosed on various pills as a child, which were most likely administed by her mother. Betty also often told untrue stories about how Mary been hit by a truck so she could bask in people's sympathy. And though unproven, because it was not known or admitted to be known by other relatives, Betty used her daughter Mary as a sexual prop during her prostitution.

By the time Mary was two, she had no interest in bonding with others, she didn't cry when she was hurt, and she began lashing out violently. When she was five, Mary witnessed one of her few friends get killed by a bus. Mary was teased in school and often tried to strangle, hit, and kick other children. She was also like her mother and told extreme stories for attention, which is why many people laughed and did not believe her when she said she was a murderer. She also met her friend and side-kick, Norma Bell (no relation), who tagged along with Mary. The two often caused mayhem together by breaking in and vandalizing the school numerous times and hurting other children, though Mary was the primary source of violence. Prior to the deaths of Brian and Martin, Mary's own cousin had been found bleeding from the head because she had pushed him off a ledge in an attempt to kill him, Mary had tried to strangle three girls sitting in the playground, and had even been seen trying to strangle Norma and attack Norma's younger sister, among other numerous violent attacks towards others.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:57:31 AM EDT
I am apalled that Mary was able to just go-on with a normal life. However, in this case it is her mother who should be really paying for it. Studies have shown that kids who are raised as she was, are much more likely to be sociopathic. And though I think Mary should be "watched" for the rest of her life because the damage that was done cannot be undone, the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child. It is truly one of those cases where it really WAS someone else's fault. Sad story...
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:02:07 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:11:07 AM EDT
"That crazy Himmler justs needs "watching.""

LOL!!!
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:26:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 7:35:20 AM EDT by Red_Label]
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
[Hitler & Stalin were both abused as children.

Gonna give them a pass?

That crazy Himmler justs needs "watching."
View Quote


Did you read my post? Did it sound like I gave her a pass? Did you read the second sentence of my post? Or the last? Yes, if possible life incarceration would have been probably the "safest" way to go with her. But that is not what happened. So my point was that didn't mommy dearest play some role in this story?

People are responsible for their own actions. However, to NOT hold a parent partly responsible for screwing-up a kid from birth is stupid. The woman "helped" her child into this sick story. This story is sickening and sad for all parties. No winners. No good came of it. And nothing to be happy about.

Hitler and Stalin will probably spend eternity in hell for their actions. If their parents were indeed partly responsible for the people they turned out to be, does it not stand to reason that they will at least bear a small part of the guilt for it?  

Edited to add:

I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children. To deny that is to deny the tangled and complicated web that is  life and reality. And that is part of the reason why only God will be qualified to truly judge us as individuals. Our parents in many cases have no small part in determining the people that we become. Our choices are our own. But how we are raised tends to blur those choices and the consequences for them in the cases of abused children. This is why it's such a sin to abuse and neglect chilren. We, as parents are largely responsible for determining WHO THEY BECOME. A fact that is not lost on me, being a parent of five children. There are children born into great homes who choose evil. But there are children who might have been predisposed to choose good, but because of their raising have trouble choosing good. And there are children who choose good, even though they were raised in horrible homes. That's where strength character comes into play. But many kids need that parental guidance to steer them in the right direction and set their path as youth. For every George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, there are millions of regular people.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:52:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:31:41 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 8:32:34 AM EDT by clean_cut]
"But what I want most of all is a normal life." --Mary Bell



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At her trial, a psychiatrist who had examined Mary testified that she exhibited the classic symptoms of psychopathology (or sociopathology) by her lack of feeling toward others. "She showed no remorse whatsoever, no tears and no anxiety. She was completely unemotional about the whole affair and merely resentful at her detention," reported Dr. Orton.
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Mary claims to have a new awareness of her crimes from the birth of her child. She was allowed to keep the child, who was technically a ward of the court until 1992. "If there was something wrong with me when I was a child, there wasn't now. I felt that if they could X-ray me inside, they could see that anything broken had been fixed," she insisted.

Somehow, Mary Bell had made a transition, without appropriate psychiatric treatment, from a child killer to loving mother. Her years in reform school and prison yielded sexual abuse and drug addiction, yet she claims to have a new moral consciousness and deep sorrow for her crimes. Could this be possible? Can we believe, as Gitta Sereny wrote, in the "possibility of metamorphosis"? Mary Bell had become, for the author, "two people -- the child and the adult."

She eventually met a man and fell in love, then settled in a small town. But the probation officer had to inform the local authorities of her presence, and soon the villagers were marching through the street with "Murderer Out!" signs. She lived in constant fear of being exposed.
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So, apparently, this woman snapped out of it "just like that", with no formal psychiatric treatment. I didn't realize it was so easy.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:07:09 AM EDT
SteyrAUG... WHAT the hell are you talking about when you say "take a look at what you are advocating"? I am advocating that Mary is scary and should be "watched" for the rest of her life, since she won't be incarcerated. And I am advocating that her abusive and neglective mother bears some responsibility in the way she turned-out. And that is so hard to you to comprehend because...?

Mary is guilty of a haneous crime. Her mother is guilty of doing her best to help Mary be screwed-up in the head. And somehow you've got me giving Hitler and Stalin a pass for their crimes, even though [as was clarified in my second post] I am not giving Mary a pass? This is why there are so many arguements online and in real life... people just don't listen and want to hear what they want to hear so they can have a pissing match about it. I have no small hatred for Hitler and Stalin for what they put millions of people through. DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH THAT WERE NOT UTTERED BY ME. Damnit man...
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:50:37 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:04:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 10:23:43 AM EDT by Austriacus]
[img]http://bigmex.mexicangeek.com/gallery/idhitit/it_hit_me[/img]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:24:19 AM EDT
Sounds like she was good Nun material.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:30:14 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
[Here is what you advocated:

"the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child"

I did not put those words in your mouth, I told you to think about what you said (advocated).
View Quote


Hmmm...

Does this statement sound familiar to you... "I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children"?

Okay, now look at the what YOU quoted that I supposedly said. Is there a difference? Evidently to you there is not. But there is a BIG difference. So instead of me thinking about what I said, why don't YOU think about what I actually said? I hope you don't run your business with as much confusion or misinterpretation as you have done with my posts.

Me: I'd like to order a Kimber TLE shipped Next Day Air, I'll pay Postal Money Order.

You: Uhhh... you want a Llama Minimax shipped 3rd Class and you want to do chores around the shop to pay it off?
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:30:58 AM EDT
aww the part about her skinning the genitals is what made me flip, I say we give her a kick in the cooter. >:O
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:37:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 10:45:57 AM EDT by clean_cut]
How would you like to have this woman as your wife, as she claims she is "reformed".

Some guy [i]did[/i] marry her. Wonder what their marriage is like?


Mary Bell today:
[image]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/70658/14e.jpg[/image]

Looks normal to me.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:27:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:10:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By second:
But again, how could you execute an 11 year old girl who had to endure such an abusive childhood.
View Quote


Preferrably with a pair of scissors, like she used on her victim.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:42:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL
View Quote


OK, thats the bit that really surprises me, I would have thought that the murder of children would have put her immediately on the sex offenders register, and barred her from working with children. But because there doesnt appear to have been any sexual motive (.. skinning his penis, WTF was the judge thinking...), she didn't get registered.

Was she not even forced to put her real name on the application form so that a Police Background check would have sounded warning _klaxons_.

I kind of ignored the Mary Bell thing when it kicked off in the news in 1998, but this amazes me, no wonder she inspired such hatred.

/Phil
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:57:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By equin0x:
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL
View Quote


OK, thats the bit that really surprises me, I would have thought that the murder of children would have put her immediately on the sex offenders register, and barred her from working with children. But because there doesnt appear to have been any sexual motive (.. skinning his penis, WTF was the judge thinking...), she didn't get registered.

Was she not even forced to put her real name on the application form so that a Police Background check would have sounded warning _klaxons_.

I kind of ignored the Mary Bell thing when it kicked off in the news in 1998, but this amazes me, no wonder she inspired such hatred.

/Phil
View Quote



OK here's the whole story:
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Mary Bell was released May 14, 1980, and stayed in Suffolk. Her first job was in the local children's nursery, but the probation officers deemed this inappropriate work for her. She took waitress jobs, and attended a university, but was too discouraged to stick with it. After moving back in with mother, she met a young man and became pregnant. There was great concern over whether the woman who had murdered two children should be able to become a mother herself, yet she fought for the right to keep her child, which was born in 1984.
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Link Posted: 12/31/2003 1:41:06 PM EDT
I give up SteyrAUG. Talking to you is like talking to my 5 year-old sometimes... it just ain't sinking in.

You did not use my exact words when you "QUOTED ME" and you implied that I implied that the kid was not as guilty as the parent. No sir... I would say that the kid bears something between 66 and 75 percent of the guilt, while the mother bears from 25 - 34 percent. So now go ahead and take those numbers and twist them all around to suit your fancy.

You know, the act that really pissed me off was when you stated [based upon my opinion of this case] that I would claim that Hitler and Stalin were probably just victims of their parents. You took a HUGE leap on that one sir. You can try to change my words to suit what you read into them, but don't just make stuff up entirely about what I must believe based soley upon one statement of opinion.

Anyways... I'm done checking this thread. Have at it and twist things however you'd like...
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 2:00:57 PM EDT
psssst..... IBTL  [ROFL2][nana][LOLabove][LOLabove]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 2:17:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 2:19:14 PM EDT by llanero]
Most kids have a mean streak even when in the best of environments.  For most it's fairly narrow, but for some it's a little wider.  My old roommate/landlady was this cool-ass English grad student hippy/tree hugger type who during a tequila-filled night confided that she and some friends had buried ALIVE a litter of puppies when they were children!

One would've never guessed this little tidbit of her life.  

Mary Bell (though an extreme case to say the least) being able to "outgrow" this "phase" may be a surprising but not improbable case.  At least as this amateur psychologist/student of weirdos sees it.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 3:10:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 3:12:12 PM EDT by SteyrAUG]
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