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"So, instead of being executed, this woman was given a chance at a normal life, despite displaying deep psychopathic tendencies".
"At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL" I am speechless! [shock] But again, how could you execute an 11 year old girl who had to endure such an abusive childhood. What happened to her 13 years old accomplish? |
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Quoted: I am speechless! [shock] But again, how could you execute an 11 year old girl who had to endure such an abusive childhood. View Quote A rabid dog doesn't know any better either but you still put it down, for it's own sake as well as society. |
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Quoted: I'd do her. View Quote Yeah, but it's more likely that she'd 'do' you! Eric The(Honest)Hun[>]:)] |
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"He called me a murderer and I grabbed his hair and smashed his face into his dinner." -- Mary Bell View Quote |
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Mary Bell was born in England in 1957. Her brief childhood consisted of drug overdoses and the feeling of being unwanted. Her father lived with her and her younger brother but Mary was instructed by her mother to call him uncle so they could collect government assistance. Her mother is often blamed for her psychopathic behavior. Mary's mother, Betty, would often leave her with relatives and even total strangers. Relatives would often beg to keep mary but betty would always come back for her because she liked the attention that Mary attracted. Mary overdosed on various pills as a child, which were most likely administed by her mother. Betty also often told untrue stories about how Mary been hit by a truck so she could bask in people's sympathy. And though unproven, because it was not known or admitted to be known by other relatives, Betty used her daughter Mary as a sexual prop during her prostitution.
By the time Mary was two, she had no interest in bonding with others, she didn't cry when she was hurt, and she began lashing out violently. When she was five, Mary witnessed one of her few friends get killed by a bus. Mary was teased in school and often tried to strangle, hit, and kick other children. She was also like her mother and told extreme stories for attention, which is why many people laughed and did not believe her when she said she was a murderer. She also met her friend and side-kick, Norma Bell (no relation), who tagged along with Mary. The two often caused mayhem together by breaking in and vandalizing the school numerous times and hurting other children, though Mary was the primary source of violence. Prior to the deaths of Brian and Martin, Mary's own cousin had been found bleeding from the head because she had pushed him off a ledge in an attempt to kill him, Mary had tried to strangle three girls sitting in the playground, and had even been seen trying to strangle Norma and attack Norma's younger sister, among other numerous violent attacks towards others. |
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I am apalled that Mary was able to just go-on with a normal life. However, in this case it is her mother who should be really paying for it. Studies have shown that kids who are raised as she was, are much more likely to be sociopathic. And though I think Mary should be "watched" for the rest of her life because the damage that was done cannot be undone, the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child. It is truly one of those cases where it really WAS someone else's fault. Sad story...
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Quoted: I am apalled that Mary was able to just go-on with a normal life. However, in this case it is her mother who should be really paying for it. Studies have shown that kids who are raised as she was, are much more likely to be sociopathic. And though I think Mary should be "watched" for the rest of her life because the damage that was done cannot be undone, the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child. It is truly one of those cases where it really WAS someone else's fault. Sad story... View Quote Hitler & Stalin were both abused as children. Gonna give them a pass? That crazy Himmler justs needs "watching." |
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Quoted: [Hitler & Stalin were both abused as children. Gonna give them a pass? That crazy Himmler justs needs "watching." View Quote Did you read my post? Did it sound like I gave her a pass? Did you read the second sentence of my post? Or the last? Yes, if possible life incarceration would have been probably the "safest" way to go with her. But that is not what happened. So my point was that didn't mommy dearest play some role in this story? People are responsible for their own actions. However, to NOT hold a parent partly responsible for screwing-up a kid from birth is stupid. The woman "helped" her child into this sick story. This story is sickening and sad for all parties. No winners. No good came of it. And nothing to be happy about. Hitler and Stalin will probably spend eternity in hell for their actions. If their parents were indeed partly responsible for the people they turned out to be, does it not stand to reason that they will at least bear a small part of the guilt for it? Edited to add: I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children. To deny that is to deny the tangled and complicated web that is life and reality. And that is part of the reason why only God will be qualified to truly judge us as individuals. Our parents in many cases have no small part in determining the people that we become. Our choices are our own. But how we are raised tends to blur those choices and the consequences for them in the cases of abused children. This is why it's such a sin to abuse and neglect chilren. We, as parents are largely responsible for determining WHO THEY BECOME. A fact that is not lost on me, being a parent of five children. There are children born into great homes who choose evil. But there are children who might have been predisposed to choose good, but because of their raising have trouble choosing good. And there are children who choose good, even though they were raised in horrible homes. That's where strength character comes into play. But many kids need that parental guidance to steer them in the right direction and set their path as youth. For every George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, there are millions of regular people. |
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Quoted: Quoted: [Hitler & Stalin were both abused as children. Gonna give them a pass? That crazy Himmler justs needs "watching." View Quote Did you read my post? View Quote Yes, I did and here it is again: "I am apalled that Mary was able to just go-on with a normal life." But it was your second sentence that I addressed: "However, in this case it is her mother who should be really paying for it." To which I replied... "Hitler & Stalin were both abused as children." Quoted: Did it sound like I gave her a pass? View Quote Well actually yes. Quoted: Did you read the second sentence of my post? Or the last? View Quote Yup, that is the part where you basically gave her a pass. You essentially blamed the Mother for the deeds of the daughter thereby removing responsibility on the part of the daughter. Quoted: Yes, if possible life incarceration would have been probably the "safest" way to go with her. But that is not what happened. So my point was that didn't mommy dearest play some role in this story? View Quote Well punish Mom for her part ALSO. Just an idea. Quoted: People are responsible for their own actions. However, View Quote There is no however. Yes she killed your son HOWEVER... Now how does that sit with you? Quoted: to NOT hold a parent partly responsible for screwing-up a kid from birth is stupid. The woman "helped" her child into this sick story. This story is sickening and sad for all parties. No winners. No good came of it. And nothing to be happy about. View Quote I agree, the parent is ALSO guilty. Punish both. Quoted: Hitler and Stalin will probably spend eternity in hell for their actions. If their parents were indeed partly responsible for the people they turned out to be, does it not stand to reason that they will at least bear a small part of the guilt for it? View Quote But does that in any way aleviate the guilt of Hitler & Stalin? Quoted: I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children. To deny that is to deny the tangled and complicated web that is life and reality. View Quote But what you miss is they are a accomplice, it does not remove guilt from the actor. Every shitbag criminal has got a 'story' for how they got that way. Does it ever excuse their action? Quoted: And that is part of the reason why only God will be qualified to truly judge us as individuals. View Quote Well shit empty the jails and let's all wait for God to fix things. Quoted: Our parents in many cases have no small part in determining the people that we become. Our choices are our own. But how we are raised tends to blur those choices and the consequences for them in the cases of abused children. This is why it's such a sin to abuse and neglect chilren. We, as parents are largely responsible for determining WHO THEY BECOME. A fact that is not lost on me, being a parent of five children. There are children born into great homes who choose evil. But there are children who might have been predisposed to choose good, but because of their raising have trouble choosing good. And there are children who choose good, even though they were raised in horrible homes. That's where strength character comes into play. But many kids need that parental guidance to steer them in the right direction and set their path as youth. For every George Washington or Abraham Lincoln, there are millions of regular people. View Quote And that is why sometime BOTH are guilty. Take another look at what you are advocating. |
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"But what I want most of all is a normal life." --Mary Bell
------------------------------------------------ At her trial, a psychiatrist who had examined Mary testified that she exhibited the classic symptoms of psychopathology (or sociopathology) by her lack of feeling toward others. "She showed no remorse whatsoever, no tears and no anxiety. She was completely unemotional about the whole affair and merely resentful at her detention," reported Dr. Orton. ------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------- Mary claims to have a new awareness of her crimes from the birth of her child. She was allowed to keep the child, who was technically a ward of the court until 1992. "If there was something wrong with me when I was a child, there wasn't now. I felt that if they could X-ray me inside, they could see that anything broken had been fixed," she insisted. Somehow, Mary Bell had made a transition, without appropriate psychiatric treatment, from a child killer to loving mother. Her years in reform school and prison yielded sexual abuse and drug addiction, yet she claims to have a new moral consciousness and deep sorrow for her crimes. Could this be possible? Can we believe, as Gitta Sereny wrote, in the "possibility of metamorphosis"? Mary Bell had become, for the author, "two people -- the child and the adult." She eventually met a man and fell in love, then settled in a small town. But the probation officer had to inform the local authorities of her presence, and soon the villagers were marching through the street with "Murderer Out!" signs. She lived in constant fear of being exposed. ------------------------------------------------ So, apparently, this woman snapped out of it "just like that", with no formal psychiatric treatment. I didn't realize it was so easy. |
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SteyrAUG... WHAT the hell are you talking about when you say "take a look at what you are advocating"? I am advocating that Mary is scary and should be "watched" for the rest of her life, since she won't be incarcerated. And I am advocating that her abusive and neglective mother bears some responsibility in the way she turned-out. And that is so hard to you to comprehend because...?
Mary is guilty of a haneous crime. Her mother is guilty of doing her best to help Mary be screwed-up in the head. And somehow you've got me giving Hitler and Stalin a pass for their crimes, even though [as was clarified in my second post] I am not giving Mary a pass? This is why there are so many arguements online and in real life... people just don't listen and want to hear what they want to hear so they can have a pissing match about it. I have no small hatred for Hitler and Stalin for what they put millions of people through. DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH THAT WERE NOT UTTERED BY ME. Damnit man... |
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Quoted: SteyrAUG... WHAT the hell are you talking about when you say "take a look at what you are advocating"? I am advocating that Mary is scary and should be "watched" for the rest of her life, since she won't be incarcerated. And I am advocating that her abusive and neglective mother bears some responsibility in the way she turned-out. And that is so hard to you to comprehend because...? Mary is guilty of a haneous crime. Her mother is guilty of doing her best to help Mary be screwed-up in the head. And somehow you've got me giving Hitler and Stalin a pass for their crimes, even though [as was clarified in my second post] I am not giving Mary a pass? This is why there are so many arguements online and in real life... people just don't listen and want to hear what they want to hear so they can have a pissing match about it. I have no small hatred for Hitler and Stalin for what they put millions of people through. DO NOT PUT WORDS INTO MY MOUTH THAT WERE NOT UTTERED BY ME. Damnit man... View Quote Here is what you advocated: "the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child" I did not put those words in your mouth, I told you to think about what you said (advocated). |
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[img]http://bigmex.mexicangeek.com/gallery/idhitit/it_hit_me[/img]
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Quoted: [Here is what you advocated: "the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child" I did not put those words in your mouth, I told you to think about what you said (advocated). View Quote Hmmm... Does this statement sound familiar to you... "I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children"? Okay, now look at the what YOU quoted that I supposedly said. Is there a difference? Evidently to you there is not. But there is a BIG difference. So instead of me thinking about what I said, why don't YOU think about what I actually said? I hope you don't run your business with as much confusion or misinterpretation as you have done with my posts. Me: I'd like to order a Kimber TLE shipped Next Day Air, I'll pay Postal Money Order. You: Uhhh... you want a Llama Minimax shipped 3rd Class and you want to do chores around the shop to pay it off? |
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aww the part about her skinning the genitals is what made me flip, I say we give her a kick in the cooter. >:O
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How would you like to have this woman as your wife, as she claims she is "reformed".
Some guy [i]did[/i] marry her. Wonder what their marriage is like? Mary Bell today: [image]http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2002-11/70658/14e.jpg[/image] Looks normal to me. |
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Quoted: Quoted: [Here is what you advocated: "the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child" I did not put those words in your mouth, I told you to think about what you said (advocated). View Quote Hmmm... Does this statement sound familiar to you... "I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children"? Okay, now look at the what YOU quoted that I supposedly said. Is there a difference? Evidently to you there is not. But there is a BIG difference. So instead of me thinking about what I said, why don't YOU think about what I actually said? I hope you don't run your business with as much confusion or misinterpretation as you have done with my posts. Me: I'd like to order a Kimber TLE shipped Next Day Air, I'll pay Postal Money Order. You: Uhhh... you want a Llama Minimax shipped 3rd Class and you want to do chores around the shop to pay it off? View Quote OK, we'll do this very slowly... My criticism was based upon this statement of YOURS. "the sin is on the head of her mother for her deeds as a child" However I also addresseed the statement you requoted. "I believe that the sins of the parents to play a role in the sins of the children"? I did not take issue with that one specifically, except to note that the sins of the parents do NOT alleviate the sins of the children but merely add to the number of guilty parties. Take a breath, quit feeling slighted, and re read what I wrote. I never said you advocated anything regarding Hitler & Stalin, I merely used them for contrast to make a point. I would offer you your advice... So instead of me thinking about what I said, why don't YOU think about what I actually said? And to simplify in a nutshell. The fact that the parents fucked this kid up does not alleviate the guilt of the kid. It only means the parents are also guilty. A lot of people had fucked up parents and never killed anyone. I took offence at the idea you promoted (but not you personally) that somehow the child is not as responsible as the parent(s), I think they are simply both guilty. |
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Quoted: But again, how could you execute an 11 year old girl who had to endure such an abusive childhood. View Quote Preferrably with a pair of scissors, like she used on her victim. |
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Quoted: At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL View Quote OK, thats the bit that really surprises me, I would have thought that the murder of children would have put her immediately on the sex offenders register, and barred her from working with children. But because there doesnt appear to have been any sexual motive (.. skinning his penis, WTF was the judge thinking...), she didn't get registered. Was she not even forced to put her real name on the application form so that a Police Background check would have sounded warning _klaxons_. I kind of ignored the Mary Bell thing when it kicked off in the news in 1998, but this amazes me, no wonder she inspired such hatred. /Phil |
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Quoted: Quoted: At 23 yo, when released from custody. Her first job? Caretaker at a children's nursery! LOL View Quote OK, thats the bit that really surprises me, I would have thought that the murder of children would have put her immediately on the sex offenders register, and barred her from working with children. But because there doesnt appear to have been any sexual motive (.. skinning his penis, WTF was the judge thinking...), she didn't get registered. Was she not even forced to put her real name on the application form so that a Police Background check would have sounded warning _klaxons_. I kind of ignored the Mary Bell thing when it kicked off in the news in 1998, but this amazes me, no wonder she inspired such hatred. /Phil View Quote OK here's the whole story: ------------------------------------------------ Mary Bell was released May 14, 1980, and stayed in Suffolk. Her first job was in the local children's nursery, but the probation officers deemed this inappropriate work for her. She took waitress jobs, and attended a university, but was too discouraged to stick with it. After moving back in with mother, she met a young man and became pregnant. There was great concern over whether the woman who had murdered two children should be able to become a mother herself, yet she fought for the right to keep her child, which was born in 1984. ------------------------------------------------ |
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I give up SteyrAUG. Talking to you is like talking to my 5 year-old sometimes... it just ain't sinking in.
You did not use my exact words when you "QUOTED ME" and you implied that I implied that the kid was not as guilty as the parent. No sir... I would say that the kid bears something between 66 and 75 percent of the guilt, while the mother bears from 25 - 34 percent. So now go ahead and take those numbers and twist them all around to suit your fancy. You know, the act that really pissed me off was when you stated [based upon my opinion of this case] that I would claim that Hitler and Stalin were probably just victims of their parents. You took a HUGE leap on that one sir. You can try to change my words to suit what you read into them, but don't just make stuff up entirely about what I must believe based soley upon one statement of opinion. Anyways... I'm done checking this thread. Have at it and twist things however you'd like... |
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Most kids have a mean streak even when in the best of environments. For most it's fairly narrow, but for some it's a little wider. My old roommate/landlady was this cool-ass English grad student hippy/tree hugger type who during a tequila-filled night confided that she and some friends had buried ALIVE a litter of puppies when they were children!
One would've never guessed this little tidbit of her life. Mary Bell (though an extreme case to say the least) being able to "outgrow" this "phase" may be a surprising but not improbable case. At least as this amateur psychologist/student of weirdos sees it. |
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Quoted: I give up SteyrAUG. Talking to you is like talking to my 5 year-old sometimes... it just ain't sinking in. You did not use my exact words when you "QUOTED ME" and you implied that I implied that the kid was not as guilty as the parent. View Quote Copy/pasted it right from YOUR post. For the sake of clarity, please post in red the quote I attributed to you that was changed. |
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