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Posted: 10/7/2007 1:45:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 1:54:05 PM EST by Greenfeet]
The other night I was riding with some friends (1 girl, 3 of us guys, all college students) from Atlanta to Chattanooga and we stopped around 9 pm in one of the gas stations north of Atlanta because the girl needed to use a restroom. So the three of us wandered aimlessly through the gas station, looking at different things. The only other people in the place were the night manager, this really redneck looking guy, a woman who was interacting with him like she was his S/O and a girl of about 12-13 who seemed to be in their care. I don't think she was their daughter as she was at least partly African-American and they were very white; perhaps one of their daughter from another relationship?

Well redneck guy is really creeping me out. But it was tempting to dismiss him as a threat because it was so stereotypical. It was like "No he can't really be dangerous because he looks so #$%@ing weird."

As his g/f is checking out, my two friends and I had gathered and were looking at the hats that were for sale on the front wall of the store. Redneck is on the other side of the two of them from me and has opened the glass knife cabinet, pulling out some fantastical knife that was a handle with two curved blades, one coming out either side. I don't know if he said something first or not, but my buddy that was closest to him (call him friend A) said something like "yeah, that's a pretty intense knife..." We went back laughing at the hats as he put the monster blade away, only to get out a butterfly knife and awkwardly try to open it. He obviously didn't know what he was doing.

But as he got it open, he looked at friend A with a sideways glance that honestly looked like a serial killer that you see in the movies. You know, like sideways, but sort of out of the tops of his eyes? I don't think either of them noticed, and I don't think that he saw me notice.

Well, by this point his girlfriend is done and he wanders over to her at the register and they leave. I'm not sure whether he bought a knife or not; he well may have.

It is important to know that they were parked out by the pumps, and we were parked right by the front door.

The girl that we were with gets done in the bathroom, comes out, and we leave. As we get out to the car, redneck is walking back toward the store and toward us, with something in his hand. I thought it looked like a knife, especially since it sort of looked like he had just bought one. No blade is visible, but it could have been a butterfly knife, right?

We are suddenly hurrying to get the car unlocked and pile in. He wasn't quite able to get to us quick enough to be an overt threat, but just as we were getting into the car, he said directly to friend A (the one he had been staring at) in a decidedly threatening way, "If I ever see you again, I'll show you how it works."

He got to within about 20 feet of the car before we got in and locked the doors.

As we drove away, the conversation went like:

Freind B: "Dude, did he just threaten your life?!"
Friend A: "I think he did, I feel really weirded out."
Girl: "Don't worry, Greenfeet would have protected us." She was the only one who knew at the time that I was carrying

From then it was a conversation about concealed carry, which they were all suddenly in favor of, which is great because Friend B calls himself a pacifist.


So ARFcom, what would you have done? I never saw a knife blade, but what he said and his actions previously left little room that for doubt that he was not trustworthy. I had not said a word about him to my friends, who are generally sheep, but they were all pretty nervous about what he had done too.

But I never drew down; I didn't even start getting my shirt tail out of the way. I think if at any point I had seen a blade, I would have at least had my hand on the grip of my weapon, but it never came to that. So I guess my question, after all of that is, what does he have to do before it's appropriate to draw down? Would you have done so sooner?

My weapon is a G19 in a BladeTech IWB.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:10:10 PM EST
I think you did the right thing...moving away from the threat.

Drawing your weapon is always the last option.

Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:20:23 PM EST
Don't over analyze it. You and your friends got out safe and sound. Captain Meth Head probably thought that you and your friends were laughing at him when you were laughing at the hats. He must have a pretty shitty life being as ugly as he is and he was looking to take it out on you guys.

Carry both pepper spray and mace is a pain in the ass but sometimes it's best to have the pepper spray ready and out while getting mentally prepared to draw your real weapon. He was walking so it was probably just an empty threat. If he was running I would call it a good shoot.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:23:53 PM EST
I would have kicked the guy that called himself a pacifist out of my car. Not one of my friends would ever say something so absurd.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:30:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By Greenfeet:
We are suddenly hurrying to get the car unlocked and pile in. He wasn't quite able to get to us quick enough to be an overt threat, but just as we were getting into the car, he said directly to friend A (the one he had been staring at) in a decidedly threatening way, "If I ever see you again, I'll show you how it works."


Maybe he just thought you were having problems unlocking the car door, and was offering to help next time.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:31:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 2:33:06 PM EST by ZW17]
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:31:44 PM EST
Hell, four of you and one of him, late night in north Atlanta?

So called redneck had some big ones.

I think you watch too much tv and surf the net a little excessively.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:34:02 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:35:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/7/2007 2:42:40 PM EST by ZW17]
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:35:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By Jarhead_22:

Originally Posted By almega:
I would have kicked the guy that called himself a pacifist out of my car. Not one of my friends would ever say something so absurd.

Pacifist is another word for the guy who won't have your back when things get pear-shaped, but expects you to have his.

yep, thats why I'm not friends with anyone like this.
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:37:33 PM EST
You definately did the right thing. People like that are idiots and will very likely meet an untimely demise threatening others over nothing. You certainly don't want to be the one who does him in just to prove a point, ("nice blade, now peep my GAT! BANG! = pound me in the ass prison).


Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:40:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/7/2007 2:46:45 PM EST
So did you show the other guys your gun afterwards?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 3:06:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Mazeman:
So did you show the other guys your gun afterwards?


We stopped at a grocery store once we got back into town and I showed friend A (the non-pacifist) how the rig worked.

He was impressed.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 4:27:15 AM EST
Sort of odd. Did you friend do anything to warrant such a comment from weird guy?

I think you did the right thing, drive away.

And you definitely did the right thing by having a G19
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:05:29 AM EST
Now they all know you carry expect the "pacifist" to yell out "OMG you have a gun do something!!11!11" the next time the SHTF. No one knows I carry except my parents, and other friends that carry.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:44:40 AM EST
i know most places you are obligated to retreat if possible...
it seems like it was very possible and you are all safe...

if the guy were blocking your path to your car or the front door of the store the situation would have been very different...

similar thing happened to me about 6 years ago... i was in a wawa with a couple friends in a fairly rural part of NJ (no CCW there)... across the street is a bar where a lot of shady characters hang out... my friend worked at the wawa... so we're there talking to him and bothering him... well there is this redneck looking character (there actually are rednecks in NJ, we call them "pineys")... walking around... he is a regular, hangs out at the bar, tries to start trouble, acts like an idiot...

i was wearing a flight jacket and jeans... pretty standard winter clothing for me for a majority of my life... so the guy comes up to me and starts giving me a hard time... apparently flight jackets are common apparel for neo-nazi skinheads... which i obviously am not... i was about 3 times the guys size so i am not intimidated at all...

dude: nice jacket... what are you a nazi
me: no, it cost me $20 at an army/navy
dude: yea right... take it off and throw it in the trash
me: get fucking lost
dude: i'm a native american and that offends me
me: whatever...
dude: i'm serious man we don't like nazis around here take it off...
me: [in attempt to be funny, i zip my jacket up to my neck] you're gonna have to kill me and take it off (my friends are laughing at my dirty harry-ish attempt at being a badass... so the guy takes hold of a bottle like he is going to swing it at me, so my hand goes down to my benchmade)
dude: awww man... um... i was just kidding you know... i am a nazi too!
me: dude i'm not a fucking nazi, get lost what is your problem
dude: oh man haha alright TAKE IT EASY!
me:

at this point i leave thinking he is going to bring back some more idiots from the bar... the next week this guy is in the wawa pulling the same shit on another guy... accusing him of being a racist... when the guy tries to leave wawa this goofball dude pulls a gun and shoots him in the face...

part of me always wonders if that guy was carrying the week before when he gave me a hard time and thanks god that i am still alive... the other part of me wonders if the situation had escalated with me and him and i put him in the hospital/jail if the other guy would still be alive today...
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:49:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 5:50:21 AM EST by Smead]
Good as it occurred, withdrawal without escalating the situation; inbred simply demonstarted poor manners.


From then it was a conversation about concealed carry, which they were all suddenly in favor of, which is great because Friend B calls himself a pacifist.


It's awesome to witness awareness and understanding dawn like the sun.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:55:35 AM EST

at this point i leave thinking he is going to bring back some more idiots from the bar... the next week this guy is in the wawa pulling the same shit on another guy... accusing him of being a racist... when the guy tries to leave wawa this goofball dude pulls a gun and shoots him in the face...

part of me always wonders if that guy was carrying the week before when he gave me a hard time and thanks god that i am still alive... the other part of me wonders if the situation had escalated with me and him and i put him in the hospital/jail if the other guy would still be alive today...



Nope. After being at a disadvantage, he armed up to be a proper tough guy.

Good lesson on not under-estimating an opponent though, just because you are armed. The other guy may be carrying as well, legal or not.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:58:42 AM EST
The gas station had a knife cabinet?
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 5:59:27 AM EST
Good ol' boy wants to demonstrate his new found skill and everyone wants to blast him for it.

Don't go to places that serve/sell alcohol to use the restroom at night. There is always a dennys or wal mart super center open to use their bathrooms, not that you won't find great people there but it's a better option than a place that is almost a guarantee to have 1 meth head, 1 vagrant, 2 vatos, 4 crips and a partridge in a pear tree.

You did good other wise though.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:15:25 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/8/2007 7:16:19 AM EST by Einstein]
You did the right thing. The girl with you sees you as the protector out of the group and top of the food chain. Use that to your advantage and get into her pants. Use a condom. Enjoy life.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:27:03 AM EST


Originally Posted By jrkarp:
The gas station had a knife cabinet?



Thats what I was thinking. Not to mention any store around here that has knives and shit on display the cases are always locked.

Apparently from reading some of the other replies knife cabinets aren't that uncommon though.
Link Posted: 10/8/2007 7:57:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By Einstein:
The girl with you sees you as the protector out of the group and top of the food chain. Use that to your advantage and get into her pants. Use a condom. Enjoy life.


She's married and I'm friends with her husband. And I have a girlfriend.

Link Posted: 10/8/2007 6:11:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By jnojr:
If you can CCW, forget about everything else, and just avoid every possible altercation like the plague. But if your life is in immediate danger and you cannot flee, stop the threat. Don't play around with something that indicates that you were not, in fact, in immediate fear of death or great bodily injury.


Problem is, we've got the 21 foot rule. That guy could've drawn that knife and stabbed him possibly quicker than he could draw.

And our OP probably can't draw until the perp has a knife in his hand.

So at 20 feet we have a possible knife threat, but he can't react. But he could have put his pepper spray into his hand to at least have something if the guy went violent and bought time to draw his sidearm if it really went bad.

Basically an example of brandishing laws sucking, but that's how it is.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 3:43:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By jnojr:
If you can CCW, forget about everything else, and just avoid every possible altercation like the plague. But if your life is in immediate danger and you cannot flee, stop the threat. Don't play around with something that indicates that you were not, in fact, in immediate fear of death or great bodily injury.


Problem is, we've got the 21 foot rule. That guy could've drawn that knife and stabbed him possibly quicker than he could draw.

And our OP probably can't draw until the perp has a knife in his hand.

So at 20 feet we have a possible knife threat, but he can't react. But he could have put his pepper spray into his hand to at least have something if the guy went violent and bought time to draw his sidearm if it really went bad.

Basically an example of brandishing laws sucking, but that's how it is.


Yeah I didn't want to show my weapon just because he was weirding me out, and I wasn't quite sure enough that it was a knife in his hand.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 4:56:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By jnojr:
If you can CCW, forget about everything else, and just avoid every possible altercation like the plague. But if your life is in immediate danger and you cannot flee, stop the threat. Don't play around with something that indicates that you were not, in fact, in immediate fear of death or great bodily injury.


Problem is, we've got the 21 foot rule. That guy could've drawn that knife and stabbed him possibly quicker than he could draw.

And our OP probably can't draw until the perp has a knife in his hand.

So at 20 feet we have a possible knife threat, but he can't react. But he could have put his pepper spray into his hand to at least have something if the guy went violent and bought time to draw his sidearm if it really went bad.

Basically an example of brandishing laws sucking, but that's how it is.


Wouldn't the pepper spray be brandishing too? They're both weapons, so you can't draw either one until there's a threat. And if there is a lethal threat, shouldn't you occupy your hand with the weapon with the best chance of stopping it?

What he can do in that pre-draw state depends on his environment. You could put your hand on the gun, ready to draw it, such that he can't see it, depending on whether there's anyone else around who might see it. You could also move to put an obstacle between you and him, like a car, trash can, gas pump, post, etc. You could check your environment and make sure you're okay to back up rapidly while drawing.

Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:48:41 AM EST
I agree with the FOX OC recommendation to bridge the gap between between defending yourself with your fists and having to shoot him, but that's just me.

Also, your friend's life was threatened and there are witnesses. You should have gotten a tag # and called the police.

Maybe the joker would learn that there are consequences to running your mouth.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:51:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 5:51:37 AM EST by topknot]

Originally Posted By mace:

Originally Posted By Spade:

Originally Posted By jnojr:
If you can CCW, forget about everything else, and just avoid every possible altercation like the plague. But if your life is in immediate danger and you cannot flee, stop the threat. Don't play around with something that indicates that you were not, in fact, in immediate fear of death or great bodily injury.


Problem is, we've got the 21 foot rule. That guy could've drawn that knife and stabbed him possibly quicker than he could draw.

And our OP probably can't draw until the perp has a knife in his hand.

So at 20 feet we have a possible knife threat, but he can't react. But he could have put his pepper spray into his hand to at least have something if the guy went violent and bought time to draw his sidearm if it really went bad.

Basically an example of brandishing laws sucking, but that's how it is.


Wouldn't the pepper spray be brandishing too? They're both weapons, so you can't draw either one until there's a threat. And if there is a lethal threat, shouldn't you occupy your hand with the weapon with the best chance of stopping it?

What he can do in that pre-draw state depends on his environment. You could put your hand on the gun, ready to draw it, such that he can't see it, depending on whether there's anyone else around who might see it. You could also move to put an obstacle between you and him, like a car, trash can, gas pump, post, etc. You could check your environment and make sure you're okay to back up rapidly while drawing.



No at least not here (may vary based upon locale). You can carry a keychain cannister of OC spray in the palm of your hand. I wouldn't wave it around and threaten anyone with it, but have it at the ready, but keep the element of surprise. Just my opinion.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 5:57:13 AM EST

Originally Posted By mace:


What he can do in that pre-draw state depends on his environment. You could put your hand on the gun, ready to draw it, such that he can't see it, depending on whether there's anyone else around who might see it. You could also move to put an obstacle between you and him, like a car, trash can, gas pump, post, etc. You could check your environment and make sure you're okay to back up rapidly while drawing.



In theory I agree, but that wasn't possible in this case. Redneck, Friend A and I were all on one side of the car. Friend B and girl were on the opposite side, the driver's side. To move around the car would have been to leave Friend A to fend for himself, and, if it came down to it, to try to shoot around him.

Link Posted: 10/9/2007 6:06:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 7:34:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:
C+


Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:55:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 8:59:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 9:00:17 AM EST by Jrock82]
Just a good ol' boy having fun with some city kids.

He most likely was carrying as well.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 9:16:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By HeckThomas:
Don't go to places that serve/sell alcohol to use the restroom at night. There is always a dennys or wal mart super center open to use their bathrooms, not that you won't find great people there but it's a better option than a place that is almost a guarantee to have 1 meth head, 1 vagrant, 2 vatos, 4 crips and a cartridge in a 3AT.


fixed it
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 9:17:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 9:19:04 AM EST by TrickyVic]

Originally Posted By Smead:

at this point i leave thinking he is going to bring back some more idiots from the bar... the next week this guy is in the wawa pulling the same shit on another guy... accusing him of being a racist... when the guy tries to leave wawa this goofball dude pulls a gun and shoots him in the face...

part of me always wonders if that guy was carrying the week before when he gave me a hard time and thanks god that i am still alive... the other part of me wonders if the situation had escalated with me and him and i put him in the hospital/jail if the other guy would still be alive today...



Nope. After being at a disadvantage, he armed up to be a proper tough guy.

Good lesson on not under-estimating an opponent though, just because you are armed. The other guy may be carrying as well, legal or not.


A good rule of thumb that has served me well in life is to assume "the other guy" is at least as well armed and twice as crazy as me.

edit to correct spelling
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 9:22:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Greenfeet:

Originally Posted By SGB:
C+





A = Excellant
B = Very Good
C = Average
D = Poor
F = Flunked


Ah yes, I was looking for an explanation for the only slightly better than average rating....

what did I do wrong/what should I have done differently?
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 9:26:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Pita_146:

Originally Posted By jrkarp:
The gas station had a knife cabinet?



Thats what I was thinking. Not to mention any store around here that has knives and shit on display the cases are always locked.

Apparently from reading some of the other replies knife cabinets aren't that uncommon though.


I guess not, south of the Mason Dixon line anyway.

We have gas stations here that have subs and salads made to order, hand tossed pizza, a massive beer selection, milk, eggs, and other groceries, but no knives.

I did stop at a gas station in Montana one time that had a casino gaming room in it though.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:00:01 AM EST

Originally Posted By Greenfeet:

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Greenfeet:

Originally Posted By SGB:
C+





A = Excellant
B = Very Good
C = Average
D = Poor
F = Flunked


Ah yes, I was looking for an explanation for the only slightly better than average rating....

what did I do wrong/what should I have done differently?


Yeah, no joke - a teacher/professor doesn't just give you a grade, they use a red pen to mark what you did incorrectly.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:02:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 10:12:40 AM EST by BillofRights]
Wow, that was a whole lotta reading over an insignificant occurrence. I'm tempted to ask for my 5 minutes back.


Instead, I will offer this. Tell your friend not talk to strangers. The redneck somehow got the idea that your friend was mocking him.

Your friend needs to learn that there a people out there who are actually crazy and dangerous. Your intuition picked up on this. Listen to your intuition, and try to get your friend to develop his. He shouldn't depend on you to "protect" him either.

It's better to just ignore strange people. Find your excitement elsewhere.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:09:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/9/2007 10:28:56 AM EST by SGB]
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:11:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 10:20:01 AM EST
Got your side of the story. It would be interesting to hear the "rednecks"' I see 4 people walk in to my business late night/early morning. Once inside, they split up and go in different directions red flags should start going up now). They then gather in the front of the store (by the register?). I don't know what is going through the "rednecks" thought process, but I would venture to say he probably thought he was going to lose some money out of the register at least.

I would say you were very wise not to draw a weapon, otherwise you could have been a guest of the state for a while. Everyones perception of events is different. What you call a threat may to someone else be nothing at all. What you call a "redneck" may be just an ordinary joe whose appearance did not fit into your norms. If you truly felt threatened in any way, you should have called the local law enforcement agency. But I would gather by not doing anything other than making a post, the threat level must have been minimal.

To draw a weapon carries an awesome responsibility and must accept the responsibilities of their actions. Also, I am a "yankee" living in the heart of Dixie and not heated up by the terminology of "redneck". Been there and did that.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 11:03:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By 10-8k9:
Got your side of the story. It would be interesting to hear the "rednecks"' I see 4 people walk in to my business late night/early morning. Once inside, they split up and go in different directions red flags should start going up now). They then gather in the front of the store (by the register?). I don't know what is going through the "rednecks" thought process, but I would venture to say he probably thought he was going to lose some money out of the register at least.


You misread the story. Redneck was a customer; night manager was someone else.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 11:03:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By SGB:

Originally Posted By Greenfeet:


Ah yes, I was looking for an explanation for the only slightly better than average rating....

what did I do wrong/what should I have done differently?



You observed and correctly identified a possible threat. As the possibility of the threat increased you took no active action to slow it or keep it at a distance. Your course of action to retreat from the threat was correct, however your tactics in doing so left you very vulnerable should the threat have decided to rush an attack.

You've articulated very clearly why a reasonable individual would have considered this Man a threat and why it would be reasonable to believe that what was in his hand was a knife.

Therefore it would have been reasonable to have taken a defensive posture (placing your hand under your shirt and onto your gunbutt) while verbally requesting the threat to stop or hold his distance while you conducted your retreat.

What you did worked, no harm no foul. However you stated that the threat came to within 20 feet, had he rushed an attack it is most improbable you'd have been able to draw your weapon in time. Fists against a knife are poor odds.



Thank you very much for the input.
Link Posted: 10/9/2007 11:06:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
Wow, that was a whole lotta reading over an insignificant occurrence. I'm tempted to ask for my 5 minutes back.



Well, if I hadn't written it all down, I would have been asked about every detail, now wouldn't I?

Besides, I thought the General Discussion was for over analyzing every semi-interesting experience...
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