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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/28/2002 3:23:06 PM EDT
Nice day shooting had several shovel fulls of brass for different rifles on the ground. I had put a new scope on my Fal and was walking my shots on the paper to zero when KABOOM! Blew the bottom out of the mag and scattered rounds,base plate and follower with spring all over the table. On examination the only damage was the Mag thank goodness! Found the ejected round and it blew the primer out and had a 1/8" split in the case base. The ammo was some NATO FAMAE vintage mid 70's ( yeah, I know save the comments) The rifle obviously fired out of battery or there wouldn't be a split at the base. This ain't good! I did not know the FAL would fire out of battery. Should it? Anyone know what happened and should it have happened....
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:29:59 PM EDT
Sorry to hear about that! I don't know enough about the FAL to comment on them firing out of battery. I'm glad you were not hurt.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 3:52:59 PM EDT
It is very hard for an FAL to fire out of battery. The way the bolt falls into the locking shoulder, keeps the contact point of the firing pin away from the hammer until fully engaged. If you don't have proper 7.62NATO headspace, then it wouldn't matter if the bolt was still open or closed. Kaboom! I would still get the whole reciever checked out with the bolt for proper function and firing pin depth. And get headspace double checked.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:32:39 PM EDT
Thanks Sodie and I will get it checked out but I would have thought the hammer and firing pin would not be able to strike the round if the bold were not fully closed. I think this would really cause problems in the full auto versions of these rifles. I would think the headspace was correct as I've shot NATO Hert,portugese,Radway in this rifle with no problems. Even though the Chilean stuff was fossil material it shot it ok before. Thats what was so startling about this whole incident. Was it a freak deal?( I'm the type that gets hit with the 1 in a million stuff on a regular basis) Something was obviously wrong with the lock up system and I will take it to a gunsmith.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:38:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: ( I'm the type that gets hit with the 1 in a million stuff on a regular basis)
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I hope you buy lottery tickets! [:D]
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:41:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:54:51 PM EDT
Originally Posted By NH2112:
Originally Posted By deadeye47: ( I'm the type that gets hit with the 1 in a million stuff on a regular basis)
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I hope you buy lottery tickets! [:D]
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Yes , but it only happens on crap that I don't want to happen! Like... severe thunderstorm arrives on the way home. Driver side windshield wiper slings completely off my truck![BD] What are the odds on that!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 4:58:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: This ain't good! I did not know the FAL would fire out of battery. Should it? Anyone know what happened and should it have happened....
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Is it a CAI gun?
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:03:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:03:40 PM EDT
I knew this was coming......yes it is with an Imbel receiver. Ya, think it's AZEX time Steyr?
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:10:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: I knew this was coming......yes it is with an Imbel receiver. Ya, think it's AZEX time Steyr?
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At the very least it is time to go over to the FALFiles and ask around, if you already haven't. And having it checked out by Derek or one of the other good FALsmiths would be a good idea too.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:17:37 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: I knew this was coming......yes it is with an Imbel receiver. Ya, think it's AZEX time Steyr?
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The Imbel receiver is NOT the problem. It is everything else. It is the 30 year old well used part kit and imcompetent assembly. Two options really: 1. Sell it and put the money toward a real FAL like a DSA. 2. Strip it down to the receiver, sell or toss all other parts, get a BRAND NEW Steyr kit and send it to Azex. Sorry, it sucks. I know. I've never met anyone who bought a CAI gun and kept it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 5:49:54 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: ... I would have thought the hammer and firing pin would not be able to strike the round if the bold were not fully closed. I think this would really cause problems in the full auto versions of these rifles.
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Sorry to tell you this, but it is the full auto parts that keep that from happening! Go ask Gunplumber about it. (Doncha just love Gov't? Forcing us to make our weapons less safe!)
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:54:27 PM EDT
All my FALs are built on Steyr kits, but where in the hell do you get a "BRAND NEW Steyr kit" these days?
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 6:58:52 PM EDT
Originally Posted By mattja: All my FALs are built on Steyr kits, but where in the hell do you get a "BRAND NEW Steyr kit" these days?
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They are out there. Most are "new condition" and not Brand New, sorry my mistake. Just don't use the standard century arms Fair to Good grades.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:06:48 PM EDT
Hold on with brand name bashing bullshit. You never mentioned the condition of the round that caused this. It sounds like you blew a primer. Did you inspect the brass? Did it eject? This happens with shitty foreign military brass. The primer is punctured and gas is dumped into the mag. Usually the floorplate drops open, dumping the contents of the mag at your feet. I have a hard time believing that an FAL fired out of battery. Usually if you pop a primer the gas system doesn't have enough of a pulse to eject the round. Possibly a case head seperation would do the same thing, but these were not reloads, right?
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:16:56 PM EDT
Sorry! You did find it! If an FAL fired out of battery it would drive the bolt carrier and bolt back just like a 10/22. Imagine the damage yourself. Get rid of that ammo! I had Wolf .223 do the same thing. Disassemble it if you can for the components.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:21:52 PM EDT
Glad you are OK. Testimony to the inherent strength of the FAL design. Had that been a Williams....... I suspect it has nothing to do with it being a kit gun. Some guys get on the "new" kick. The original design had a safety sear that prevented out of battery fire. Thanks to the numb nuts idiots in Washington it is no longer there. Thank the ATF, SCOTUS, and NFA law for your unpleasant surprise!! Had you checked headspace prior to problem? Be sure to check it now. Look at lock area on bolt. Is it damaged or worn? Remove locking shoulder and check both it and reciever with dye penetrant type crack detector. Checking the bolt for cracks is not a bad idea either. Verify firing pin freedom in bolt, spring condition and proper protrusion. Very unlikely you will find any problem but the inspection will do no harm and may make you rest easier. I have heard bad things about Chilean ammo but do not know if they are true. No matter WHO makes it, stuff happens. Poor case, double charge, poor primer, any number of loading or material errors. Check everything - twice - then move on.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:33:34 PM EDT
If the case had a radial split, I'd say the rifle did NOT fire out of battery and what you have is a simple case of bad ammo. Just brittle brass that cracked under pressure. It doesn't take much of a puff of gas to blow the guts out of a magazine, and the primer probably just dropped out afterwards because the pocket spread wider. If it really fired out of battery, which could only be due to a broken firing pin, a bur or bump on the bolt face, or a high primer, then I would think you'd see noticeable damage to the bolt or receiver from the violence of the blowback. Also, the case head would almost certainly have blown off completely, probably leaving the front part in the chamber. Even DELAYED blowback firearms need waxed ammo or fluted chambers to prevent head separations, when firing high-intensity cartridges.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 7:56:51 PM EDT
Diverse advice. Thats what I like about this forum. Thanks guys. Wish I could post a pic! Looking at the case the "crimped in" primer blew out. The head of the cartridge is slightly deformed on the edge and then just past the head is where the case is "cut" and runs about 1/8" or a little longer. The cut is wider at the front than at the rear.Doesn't really look like a split but know it is from the hot gas cutting it out. Also the case was ejected as I found it about 4 feet away with the other previously fired brass. Guess I was lucky as it could have been worse. That is my first and HOPEFULLY LAST K.B.! I still can't see how the firing pin struck the primer if the bolt wasn't closed but maybe it was and just blew the primer?? Oh well. Thank all of you for the input. Anyone need a half case of Chilean 308? Will sell cheap uh..cheaper? Guaranteed to fire!
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:20:36 PM EDT
Originally Posted By deadeye47: Diverse advice. Thats what I like about this forum. Thanks guys. Wish I could post a pic! Looking at the case the "crimped in" primer blew out. The head of the cartridge is slightly deformed on the edge and then just past the head is where the case is "cut" and runs about 1/8" or a little longer. The cut is wider at the front than at the rear.Doesn't really look like a split but know it is from the hot gas cutting it out. Also the case was ejected as I found it about 4 feet away with the other previously fired brass. Guess I was lucky as it could have been worse. That is my first and HOPEFULLY LAST K.B.! I still can't see how the firing pin struck the primer if the bolt wasn't closed but maybe it was and just blew the primer?? Oh well. Thank all of you for the input. Anyone need a half case of Chilean 308? Will sell cheap uh..cheaper? Guaranteed to fire!
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Even if the split does not extend into the primer pocket, if it runs lengthwise to the case and not around it crosswise I'd still say it was locked when it fired. Perhaps an over-pressure round expanded the primer pocket and deformed the case head without splitting it completely. The increased pressure may have opened the action earlier than normal, contributing to the primer coming out.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 8:43:32 PM EDT
My Browning 1919 will eat that crap just fine!! Let me know if you ae unable to get rid of it. Fuzzbeans analysis seems very good to me. Looking things over VERY carefully remains prudent, IMHO. But then, I am considered overcautious by some! A cleaning session on my guns takes a long time because I LOOK at things. Makes me confident; your results may vary.
Link Posted: 3/28/2002 11:43:14 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MickeyMouse: My Browning 1919 will eat that crap just fine!! Let me know if you ae unable to get rid of it. Fuzzbeans analysis seems very good to me. Looking things over VERY carefully remains prudent, IMHO. But then, I am considered overcautious by some! A cleaning session on my guns takes a long time because I LOOK at things. Makes me confident; your results may vary.
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It makes sense to me too MM and fuzz but I'm going to have it checked out anyway. I hate to get rid of the gun as it was very nicely resurected with a lot of new parts and was very reasonable in price also. I also have read all the stuff on the CAI guns but thought it was worth a try as I'm stubborn that way. I've really enjoyed it and it shoots very good (it had a new barrel) and this is the first glitch I've had with it. That just scared the crap out of me and I don't want it to happen again! Thanks again for the input.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 12:43:23 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:
Originally Posted By mattja: All my FALs are built on Steyr kits, but where in the hell do you get a "BRAND NEW Steyr kit" these days?
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They are out there. Most are "new condition" and not Brand New, sorry my mistake. Just don't use the standard century arms Fair to Good grades.
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Well, I wish I could find some. All I see are beaten inch pattern and South African kits.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 6:59:36 PM EDT
Don't give up on that gun yet. I'd bet money your ammo was bad. I had the exact same thing happen with a pretty new Springfield M1A. The casehead split from the primer pocket up the case about 1/4", three different cracks. I checked some of the other fired rounds, they had small splits in the case wall. It was an old lot of Israeli ammo ('80 TZ, in fact). My guess is there's nothing wrong with your rifle and it didn't fire out of battery. Have it checked by a 'smith if you wish, but it sure sounds like an ammo problem to me.
Link Posted: 3/29/2002 7:11:54 PM EDT
It "could" be the ammo. That said I've seen LOTS of people have problems with CAI guns, especially the FALs. I've even seen the problem you described here moe than once. Of all the FALs I've seen, CAI FALs have more problems than Hesse FALs and that is pretty bad. Course, I've seen lots more CAI FALs than Hesse. Very few people actually buy Hesse. For some reason they buy the CAIs though.
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