[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Musicians - does this device exist? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 12/10/2009 9:03:12 AM EDT
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Here is my dilemma.
I play guitar at church. I cannot hear myself on stage. We have monitors, but only the leader and choral group can go through the monitors without throwing everyone off. I need a device that goes before I plug into the system, that can also send a signal out to head phones that I can use as my own personal monitoring device. So I guess like a single input, dual output that would need to be powered and possibly EQ'ed for the headphones to work. Can anyone tell me what would be the cheapest alternative for such a thing? Our music leader plays his acoustic plugged directly in and with a direct box, as does our bassist. I don't know if it is just our system is really good or what, but it seems to be working well for them. The music leader's guitar is loud enough through the main monitors, and the bassist is right next to the sub (15"), so I'm the only one with the problem of not being either to hear, since obviously my instrument needs to be a little lower and in the "blend" or the rest of the orchestra. ____ ETA: would this work? would I need to continue to use the DI with it? http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gem-Sound-MC55-5Channel-Compact-Stereo-Mixer?sku=502331#used 
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| I'm not sure if it will work for you but a "Pockit Rockit" is a little amp that plug into your guitar and has a line out. Maybe you could get a splitter and send one side to your head phones and the other to the amp. I'm no audio pro and this may not work at all. SS |
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What is your current chain/setup? Les Paul > 1/4" floor jack > line back to sound booth > 1/4" to XLR in the board (Yamaha M7CL) > then back out to mains or monitors if I could use them. We have two monitor channels, but the pianist uses the other one. Arg. We also have hearing impaired units, but we have the keyboardists signal going through that for her own personal monitor |
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Get a quarter inch splitter.
http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Hosa-Hosa-YPP111-Mono-Quarter-Inch-Male-to-Dual-Mono-Quarter-Inch-Female-Y-Cable-6-Inch Something like that, for example. Place that in an acceptable place on your rig and run some headphones through it. If you're just going dry then do it asap, otherwise, do it before any power. |
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Let me see if I understand right. You're looking for a personal P.A. so you can hear yourself? Ideally, looking to use headphones? What amp are you using now? no amp, running straight through the system. The board has plenty of EQ options (including distortion, reverb, etc.) Really cool ($$$) setup |
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Why don't you see if you can get a dedicated aux send from the mixing board, and get a set of in-ear monitors?
You can taylor the complete mix as to EXACTLY what you want to hear. I use it in the band and I'd never go back to wedges. Wired in-ears are pretty inexpensive. I'd go with an IEM setup though rather than a home-brew, because they have built-in limiters and other safety considerations in case of sudden spikes in volume, feedback, etc. |
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Quoted: Here is my dilemma. I play guitar at church. I cannot hear myself on stage. We have monitors, but only the leader and choral group can go through the monitors without throwing everyone off. I need a device that goes before I plug into the system, that can also send a signal out to head phones that I can use as my own personal monitoring device. So I guess like a single input, dual output that would need to be powered and possibly EQ'ed for the headphones to work. Can anyone tell me what would be the cheapest alternative for such a thing? With all due respect, and I mean that....how does putting an instrument through the monitors "throw everyone off"? I mean, that's what monitors are for. Unless the guitar is consistently and/or completely off, or the guy running the sound board just has something against guitars, I can't think of a single reason that having your guitar feed into the monitor mix at a reasonable volume would be a bad thing or somehow throw the rest of the performers off. I don't think there's a good answer outisde of tell the sound guy to mix your guitar correctly into the monitors. Tapping your signal would be a bad idea for any reason. I think the only way I'd do it is somehow arrange a wireless (again, asking for trouble) headset thing that's monitoring your signal from the cabinet via a separate mic. Good luck! |
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Get a quarter inch splitter. http://www.shopping.com/xPO-Hosa-Hosa-YPP111-Mono-Quarter-Inch-Male-to-Dual-Mono-Quarter-Inch-Female-Y-Cable-6-Inch Something like that, for example. Place that in an acceptable place on your rig and run some headphones through it. If you're just going dry then do it asap, otherwise, do it before any power. can't go with a simple splitter, the device has to be powered in order to power the signal to the headphones |
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Quoted: Quoted: What is your current chain/setup? Les Paul > 1/4" floor jack > line back to sound booth > 1/4" to XLR in the board (Yamaha M7CL) > then back out to mains or monitors if I could use them. We have two monitor channels, but the pianist uses the other one. Arg. We also have hearing impaired units, but we have the keyboardists signal going through that for her own personal monitor Why not just have the appropriate number of monitor cabs? (I know, it's not your responsibility, but maybe open up the discussion?) It's much easier (and far better) to put the appropriate number of monitor feeds on stage than it is to have 1/2 the performers "fending for themselves" and trying to monitor their own instruments. |
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Why don't you see if you can get a dedicated aux send from the mixing board, and get a set of in-ear monitors?
You can taylor the complete mix as to EXACTLY what you want to hear. I use it in the band and I'd never go back to wedges. Wired in-ears are pretty inexpensive. I'd go with an IEM setup though rather than a home-brew, because they have built-in limiters and other safety considerations in case of sudden spikes in volume, feedback, etc. Again, money. I'm basically paying for this stuff myself at the moment. It's a long story, but just kind how it is at the moment Quoted:
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Here is my dilemma. I play guitar at church. I cannot hear myself on stage. We have monitors, but only the leader and choral group can go through the monitors without throwing everyone off. I need a device that goes before I plug into the system, that can also send a signal out to head phones that I can use as my own personal monitoring device. So I guess like a single input, dual output that would need to be powered and possibly EQ'ed for the headphones to work. Can anyone tell me what would be the cheapest alternative for such a thing? With all due respect, and I mean that....how does putting an instrument through the monitors "throw everyone off"? I mean, that's what monitors are for. Unless the guitar is consistently and/or completely off, or the guy running the sound board just has something against guitars, I can't think of a single reason that having your guitar feed into the monitor mix at a reasonable volume would be a bad thing or somehow throw the rest of the performers off. I don't think there's a good answer outisde of tell the sound guy to mix your guitar correctly into the monitors. Tapping your signal would be a bad idea for any reason. I think the only way I'd do it is somehow arrange a wireless (again, asking for trouble) headset thing that's monitoring your signal from the cabinet via a separate mic. Good luck! the singers complain about it. Anything other than the leader and piano coming through throws them off. I can understand it, no biggie. If your church can afford an M7CL, they can afford to give the musicians proper monitoring environments. Get them to invest in an Aviom system.
I know, I know, we have this new pastor from Cali, go figure. 
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Here is my dilemma. I play guitar at church. I cannot hear myself on stage. We have monitors, but only the leader and choral group can go through the monitors without throwing everyone off. I need a device that goes before I plug into the system, that can also send a signal out to head phones that I can use as my own personal monitoring device. So I guess like a single input, dual output that would need to be powered and possibly EQ'ed for the headphones to work. Can anyone tell me what would be the cheapest alternative for such a thing? With all due respect, and I mean that....how does putting an instrument through the monitors "throw everyone off"? I mean, that's what monitors are for. Unless the guitar is consistently and/or completely off, or the guy running the sound board just has something against guitars, I can't think of a single reason that having your guitar feed into the monitor mix at a reasonable volume would be a bad thing or somehow throw the rest of the performers off. I don't think there's a good answer outisde of tell the sound guy to mix your guitar correctly into the monitors. Tapping your signal would be a bad idea for any reason. I think the only way I'd do it is somehow arrange a wireless (again, asking for trouble) headset thing that's monitoring your signal from the cabinet via a separate mic. Good luck! the singers complain about it. Anything other than the leader and piano coming through throws them off. I can understand it, no biggie. If your church can afford an M7CL, they can afford to give the musicians proper monitoring environments. Get them to invest in an Aviom system. I know, I know, we have this new pastor from Cali, go figure. I think your response solidifies the notion that the entity responsible for the pa/sound board really needs to put appropriate monitors on stage in numbers sufficient to accomodate the musicians. It's easy enough to turn down the guitars in the monitor mix for the choral monitors, isolate the guitars for your monitor mix, etc...just have to do it. That's how it's done. I'd have the discussion with the pastor or whomever. |
| Tell them God wants you to have this:http://www.sweetwater.com/store/detail/EW300IEMG3-A/ |
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At the board on the channel you are plugged into there will be a "line" or "line out" 1/4" jack output. Take a 1/4" cable out of there and plug it into whatever you want to use ( Amp, powered monitor, etc.) and adjust your volume at that unit. The soundman can do exactly what he is now, and you have your own setup to adjust as you wish.
Simple. 
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Actually, I have the G1... Sennheiser makes great stuff... price, but great. |
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Here is my dilemma. I play guitar at church. I cannot hear myself on stage. We have monitors, but only the leader and choral group can go through the monitors without throwing everyone off. I need a device that goes before I plug into the system, that can also send a signal out to head phones that I can use as my own personal monitoring device. So I guess like a single input, dual output that would need to be powered and possibly EQ'ed for the headphones to work. Can anyone tell me what would be the cheapest alternative for such a thing? With all due respect, and I mean that....how does putting an instrument through the monitors "throw everyone off"? I mean, that's what monitors are for. Unless the guitar is consistently and/or completely off, or the guy running the sound board just has something against guitars, I can't think of a single reason that having your guitar feed into the monitor mix at a reasonable volume would be a bad thing or somehow throw the rest of the performers off. I don't think there's a good answer outisde of tell the sound guy to mix your guitar correctly into the monitors. Tapping your signal would be a bad idea for any reason. I think the only way I'd do it is somehow arrange a wireless (again, asking for trouble) headset thing that's monitoring your signal from the cabinet via a separate mic. Good luck! the singers complain about it. Anything other than the leader and piano coming through throws them off. I can understand it, no biggie. If your church can afford an M7CL, they can afford to give the musicians proper monitoring environments. Get them to invest in an Aviom system.
I know, I know, we have this new pastor from Cali, go figure.
I think your response solidifies the notion that the entity responsible for the pa/sound board really needs to put appropriate monitors on stage in numbers sufficient to accomodate the musicians. It's easy enough to turn down the guitars in the monitor mix for the choral monitors, isolate the guitars for your monitor mix, etc...just have to do it. That's how it's done. I'd have the discussion with the pastor or whomever. How is this possible without installing multiple separate monitor channels? At the moment, we only have two. |
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What you want is going to be difficult unless your church is willing to invest into something like Aviom or Hearback personal monitoring for musicians. The reason I say this because if you put in earphones or muffs, it's going to be difficult for you to hear the other musicians and singers. With Aviom/Hearback each musician mixes their own mix and can present it to their ears via whatever you can plug into 1/4" TRS on the back of the personal mixer. We bought Aviom at our church and I bought my own Galaxy AS-1000 wireless IEM system to plug into the back. Possibly compromises might include getting a mixed feed from the mixer team into a wireless IEM system worn by you - that way you hear everyone, but may not have control of your own mix. |
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More monitor channels really are not expensive. You don't need lab.gruppen and microwedges. A cheap wedge and a cheap amp. Wire them in. The M7CL has 16 outputs, I doubt your using them all.
But seriously, the church needs to step up and do this. This is basic stuff, and again, with an M7CL, they aren't starving for funds. |
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What you want is going to be difficult unless your church is willing to invest into something like Aviom or Hearback personal monitoring for musicians. The reason I say this because if you put in earphones or muffs, it's going to be difficult for you to hear the other musicians and singers. With Aviom/Hearback each musician mixes their own mix and can present it to their ears via whatever you can plug into 1/4" TRS on the back of the personal mixer. We bought Aviom at our church and I bought my own Galaxy AS-1000 wireless IEM system to plug into the back.
Possibly compromises might include getting a mixed feed from the mixer team into a wireless IEM system worn by you - that way you hear everyone, but may not have control of your own mix. This is the best option, but does mean some more money. How many people on your worship team? |
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You know, guitar players without PA support usually use these things called amps, the original stage monitor. If your amp doesn't have an XLR out to go to the board, just get a $40 direct box and split your signal that way. You can just turn the amp at yourself, even leaning it back and pointing at your ears. Done properly it won't bleed with the mains and would basically allow you to have your own "monitor". If you can't be lugging around an amp, get a microphone or guitar preamp that has a balanced and unbalanced out and a small headphone amp. Some preamps might even have a headphone output, can't think of any off the top of my head. I can give some suggestions if you have a price range. |
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Quoted: More monitor channels really are not expensive. You don't need lab.gruppen and microwedges. A cheap wedge and a cheap amp. Wire them in. The M7CL has 16 outputs, I doubt your using them all. But seriously, the church needs to step up and do this. This is basic stuff, and again, with an M7CL, they aren't starving for funds. This. Exactly. I just pulled the manual for this mixer...nice piece of gear, someone just needs to say "hey, let's get a few more monitor speakers and a cheap amp". Sounds like they're trying to do everything right there as far as decent gear, just need to do the right thing and get appropriate monitors in place. |
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Get the audio guy to send you your own mix and use in ears. No one else hears it but you , problem solved. Quite cost effective. I do this for a living. that's another problem. I'm the sound guy, me and a couple others. We're not professionals by any stretch And, I am using a direct box, I left that out. Not really sure how it helps though, I couldn't hear a difference between that and plugging in direct |
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Quoted: Unless it is a DI built into a preamp, you shouldn't hear any difference! The DI just allows you to send a balanced signal to the board via XLR, instead of an unbalanced signal that has a different impedance and more noise. Quoted: Get the audio guy to send you your own mix and use in ears. No one else hears it but you , problem solved. Quite cost effective. I do this for a living. that's another problem. I'm the sound guy, me and a couple others. We're not professionals by any stretch And, I am using a direct box, I left that out. Not really sure how it helps though, I couldn't hear a difference between that and plugging in direct |
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would this work? would I need to continue to use the DI with it?
http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Gem-Sound-MC55-5Channel-Compact-Stereo-Mixer?sku=502331#used
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Get the audio guy to send you your own mix and use in ears. No one else hears it but you , problem solved. Quite cost effective. I do this for a living. that's another problem. I'm the sound guy, me and a couple others. We're not professionals by any stretch And, I am using a direct box, I left that out. Not really sure how it helps though, I couldn't hear a difference between that and plugging in direct Go here: http://www.churchsoundcheck.com/ They have a list serve, which I am a member of, that is all about people in your sort of situation. |
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A small unpowered mixer would definitely get the job done. I think you should look around for something with a better quality preamp though unless you wanted to use the DI box still. The smaller the signal path to the mains, the better. I would do a signal path like so, Guitar -> DI Box -Y- main board & your mixer -> main board to mixer -> headphones You would be sending the same signal that you are now to the main board and your sound wouldn't change for the audience, and you could use the mixer as your own headphone mixer, where you have your guitar on one channel, and a line from the mix on another channel. |
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Hi ceverett: We purchased an 8 mixer Aviom system: one each for acoustic guitar player, bass player, drummer, electric player (me), sax player, piano player, synth/keys player, and one spare for a second leader to use. At the same time we invested in a a couple Shure wireless IEM packs for the leaders so they could roam. Plus the Aviom concentrator to receive the 16 feeds from the FOH mixer and pass them to the individual mixers. As I said below I purchased my own Galaxy AS-1000 wireless IEM system since I already had an Audio-technica wireless guitar system. I'll tell you once you go wireless, it's tough going back to being tethered! Our singers kept their platform wedges, but all of the musicians have gone Aviom. After resolving initial settings and getting used to the system everyone seems to favor it fairly well. Most of us use it with in-ears or headphones of some type. Our leader on piano decided she needed a small personal monitor that she mixes using the Aviom mixer since she was having so many issues with her in-ears and sound. Since it sits on a stand at face level to her piano it doesn't cause anyone problems with on-platform volume. For inputs me and the acoustic player have floor preamps and DIs - mine is my Boss GT-10 and his is a small Fishman (I think) unit. Sax player has a mic, synth/keys runs direct, drums are in a shell and mic'ed. Bass player runs direct into a DI... not sure why this works without a preamp of some kind but it sounds OK and has enough presence. It's a pretty slick system and only came about due to ongoing issues we've had with platform volume and various amplifiers and our pastor being willing to invest the funds into the team. Quoted: Quoted: What you want is going to be difficult unless your church is willing to invest into something like Aviom or Hearback personal monitoring for musicians. The reason I say this because if you put in earphones or muffs, it's going to be difficult for you to hear the other musicians and singers. With Aviom/Hearback each musician mixes their own mix and can present it to their ears via whatever you can plug into 1/4" TRS on the back of the personal mixer. We bought Aviom at our church and I bought my own Galaxy AS-1000 wireless IEM system to plug into the back. Possibly compromises might include getting a mixed feed from the mixer team into a wireless IEM system worn by you - that way you hear everyone, but may not have control of your own mix. This is the best option, but does mean some more money. How many people on your worship team? |
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Acoustics can get by with a direct box alone, but do better with a small preamp and my personal opinion is one with some minor reverb and chorus effects. Electric players going direct is a whole different issue. To get any sort of reasonable tone you need some type of preamp device or modeller if you can't use an actual amp. Electric guitar direct to FOH is indeed a MASSIVE FAIL !! Quoted: Quoted: I don't care what kind of fancy mixing board they have. Plugging a direct guitar signal into it is a MASSIVE FAIL  Acoustics going direct is pretty much SOP for churches, but they really do need a direct box. |
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HBar, I notice that you are in my same state. What region and denom do you go to, if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like a huge place! I'm in the center of the state. Nazarene church. I went ahead and bought the mixer. I guess it can serve as a preamp. What are you going to accomplish by having that? There is no amplification and no speaker. I guess I don't get what you are trying to get done, because I'm a soundman and it just don't make sense to me. 
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Here is my dilemma. I play guitar at church. I cannot hear myself on stage. We have monitors, but only the leader and choral group can go through the monitors without throwing everyone off. I need a device that goes before I plug into the system, that can also send a signal out to head phones that I can use as my own personal monitoring device. So I guess like a single input, dual output that would need to be powered and possibly EQ'ed for the headphones to work. Can anyone tell me what would be the cheapest alternative for such a thing? With all due respect, and I mean that....how does putting an instrument through the monitors "throw everyone off"? I mean, that's what monitors are for. Unless the guitar is consistently and/or completely off, or the guy running the sound board just has something against guitars, I can't think of a single reason that having your guitar feed into the monitor mix at a reasonable volume would be a bad thing or somehow throw the rest of the performers off. I don't think there's a good answer outisde of tell the sound guy to mix your guitar correctly into the monitors. Tapping your signal would be a bad idea for any reason. I think the only way I'd do it is somehow arrange a wireless (again, asking for trouble) headset thing that's monitoring your signal from the cabinet via a separate mic. Good luck! This. Except it could be the vocalist griping about not being able to hear their voice over the instruments. I ran a tilt stand on my amp pointed at me and had the sound man mic it. That way I had complete control of my sound I could actually hear myself. |
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HBar, I notice that you are in my same state. What region and denom do you go to, if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like a huge place! I'm in the center of the state. Nazarene church. I went ahead and bought the mixer. I guess it can serve as a preamp. Hiya Beetle.... I'm in the Madison area west of Huntsville.... I attend a Foursquare Church called Restoration Foursquare Church. We're actually not 'huge' by any stretch... I think our sanctuary might hold a couple hundred or so tops. But our music and arts ministry is thriving and growing and humbly I think we are part of drawing more people into our church. We see our mission as setting the environment for praise and worship by the congregation! If you're ever up this way free to come on by some Sunday... 10 AM - 12 is service time! |
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HBar, I notice that you are in my same state. What region and denom do you go to, if you don't mind me asking? Sounds like a huge place! I'm in the center of the state. Nazarene church. I went ahead and bought the mixer. I guess it can serve as a preamp. Hiya Beetle.... I'm in the Madison area west of Huntsville.... I attend a Foursquare Church called Restoration Foursquare Church. We're actually not 'huge' by any stretch... I think our sanctuary might hold a couple hundred or so tops. But our music and arts ministry is thriving and growing and humbly I think we are part of drawing more people into our church. We see our mission as setting the environment for praise and worship by the congregation! If you're ever up this way free to come on by some Sunday... 10 AM - 12 is service time! Sure thing, thanks. Sounds like ya'll have a good thing going. What are you going to accomplish by having that? There is no amplification and no speaker. I guess I don't get what you are trying to get done, because I'm a soundman and it just don't make sense to me.
I could be wrong, but my intent is: guitar > mixer w/headphone in my ear > direct box > floor box send to board > out to mains |
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Earlier in the thread I think you said you are using a Les Paul - correct ?
I think if you went with this setup you'd be getting a raw, unamplified, no effects signal from the guitar - both in your ears and to the front of house (FOH) mixer. Also correct ? If that's what you want great. But I'm thinking since you are using an electric guitar you want some sort of preamp / amplification and possibly effects. Otherwise I'm afraid what you are the FOH will get is a really weak raw guitar signal. The mixer you posted a link for doesn't appear to have any 'guitar type' amplication. Quoted:
I could be wrong, but my intent is: guitar > mixer w/headphone in my ear > direct box > floor box send to board > out to mains |
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Earlier in the thread I think you said you are using a Les Paul - correct ? I think if you went with this setup you'd be getting a raw, unamplified, no effects signal from the guitar - both in your ears and to the front of house (FOH) mixer. Also correct ? If that's what you want great. But I'm thinking since you are using an electric guitar you want some sort of preamp / amplification and possibly effects. Otherwise I'm afraid what you are the FOH will get is a really weak raw guitar signal. The mixer you posted a link for doesn't appear to have any 'guitar type' amplication. Quoted:
I could be wrong, but my intent is: guitar > mixer w/headphone in my ear > direct box > floor box send to board > out to mains Correct. Well, I've been playing while plugged directly into the system for a while now and it is functional. As a matter of fact our music leader plays his acoustic plugged directly in and with a direct box, as does our bassist. I don't know if it is just our system is really good or what, but it seems to be working well for them. The music leader's guitar is loud enough through the main monitors, and the bassist is right next to the sub (15"), so I'm the only one with the problem of not being either to hear, since obviously my instrument needs to be a little lower and in the "blend" or the rest of the orchestra. |
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Meh. I've been in a lot of churches. If the congregation is able to hear those wispy vocalists at ALL over the massive stack behind you, you're doing it wrong. Tell the drummer to lose the plexiglass and pillows while you're at it, and have the other musicians crank the volume to compensate. If the vocalist can't be heard over the wall of sound behind him, tell him to scream loudly until he breaks through. At this point, you'll have yourself a fine band, fit to praise Jesus properly. |
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Meh. I've been in a lot of churches. If the congregation is able to hear those wispy vocalists at ALL over the massive stack behind you, you're doing it wrong. Tell the drummer to lose the plexiglass and pillows while you're at it, and have the other musicians crank the volume to compensate. If the vocalist can't be heard over the wall of sound behind him, tell him to scream loudly until he breaks through. At this point, you'll have yourself a fine band, fit to praise Jesus properly. agreed 
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