Posted: 7/1/2016 7:24:44 AM EDT
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I don't know if a Honda thing or universal, but why is first all the way down then coming up neutral then second, third, etc
Why isn't neutral where first gear is? We had a Honda trail 70 in the 1970s that was the same way, if I remember correctly. |
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I don't know if a Honda thing or universal, but why is first all the way down then coming up neutral then second, third, etc Why isn't neutral where first gear is? We had a Honda trail 70 in the 1970s that was the same way, if I remember correctly. Neutral is between first and second regardless if you are down or upshifting. It is a half shift, not a full shift. |
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I don't know if a Honda thing or universal, but why is first all the way down then coming up neutral then second, third, etc Why isn't neutral where first gear is? We had a Honda trail 70 in the 1970s that was the same way, if I remember correctly. I've been riding all my life and I have no idea. I'm going to guess transmission design but this is a tag for when someone smart shows up. |
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Because downshifting to neutral in a slow turn makes you fall over if you were expecting power. Hitting neutral should (and does) require deliberate action (ignoring things like false neutrals for this discussion.) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UBWqTd77k9E/TPIHxt6zD9I/AAAAAAAAAVM/fR4VNOQlZr8/s1600/mythbusters_plausible_spray.png Not plausible, fact. Trying to get into first but landing in neutral is a great way to fall over, trash an engine, lose a race, etc. There's no other logical place for neutral. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Because.
Shift patterns, or side of the bike was not universal in the seventies. The bike I'm restoring (Kawaski H2) is N12345, with neutral on the bottom and the shift shaft comes out the clutch cover on the right side so you could shift on the right side if you wanted. (I'm not sure how you'd set up the rear brake though) A number of British and Euro bikes at the time shifted on the right. I'm going to speculate though, that the way a constant mesh trans works, it's easier and saves a little space to put neutral between two gears than on the outside of the gear set. Neutral needs to be near 1st gear because you can only shift the gears in order, so there you go, neutral is between 1 and 2. Your only choice, really, is below first or between 1 and 2. Plus, I'll agree with the above posters. 
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Because neutral is only used when you are stopped.
Say you wanted to push start your bike. You put it in neutral and start running along side it. You jump on and down shift to start the engine otherwise you would have to get your foot under the shifter to up shift to start it. |
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Not plausible, fact. Trying to get into first but landing in neutral is a great way to fall over, trash an engine, lose a race, etc. There's no other logical place for neutral. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quoted:
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Because downshifting to neutral in a slow turn makes you fall over if you were expecting power. Hitting neutral should (and does) require deliberate action (ignoring things like false neutrals for this discussion.) http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_UBWqTd77k9E/TPIHxt6zD9I/AAAAAAAAAVM/fR4VNOQlZr8/s1600/mythbusters_plausible_spray.png Not plausible, fact. Trying to get into first but landing in neutral is a great way to fall over, trash an engine, lose a race, etc. There's no other logical place for neutral. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Occasionally you encounter reversed shift patterns (race bikes), but the shift order remains the same regardless, you just push to upshift and lift to downshift. More annoying is the fact that most bikes seem to shift to neutral from one gear easier than the other. Mine shifts into N much easier from 2 than it does from 1 |
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Because downshifting to neutral in a slow turn makes you fall over if you were expecting power. Hitting neutral should (and does) require deliberate action (ignoring things like false neutrals for this discussion.) This. You'll often find yourself in a hurry to find first, not so much of a hurry to find neutral. 
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Because neutral is only used when you are stopped. Say you wanted to push start your bike. You put it in neutral and start running along side it. You jump on and down shift to start the engine otherwise you would have to get your foot under the shifter to up shift to start it. Not always true. I have a right hand shift (1 up - 3 down pattern) with an extra heel lever called a neutral finder. When you are in any gear but 1st, you pull the clutch, heel the lever and it goes to neutral. I use it when moving at speed and I need my throttle hand to dig something out of my pocket (or whatever else I need my right to do) while coasting. After I'm done I upshift back to match my coasting speed. It's kind of a neat feature 
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Not always true. I have a right hand shift (1 up - 3 down pattern) with an extra heel lever called a neutral finder. When you are in any gear but 1st, you pull the clutch, heel the lever and it goes to neutral. I use it when moving at speed and I need my throttle hand to dig something out of my pocket (or whatever else I need my right to do) while coasting. Sooo, what's wrong with holding the clutch in instead? |
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Because. Shift patterns, or side of the bike was not universal in the seventies. The bike I'm restoring (Kawaski H2) is N12345, with neutral on the bottom and the shift shaft comes out the clutch cover on the right side so you could shift on the right side if you wanted. (I'm not sure how you'd set up the rear brake though) A number of British and Euro bikes at the time shifted on the right. I'm going to speculate though, that the way a constant mesh trans works, it's easier and saves a little space to put neutral between two gears than on the outside of the gear set. Neutral needs to be near 1st gear because you can only shift the gears in order, so there you go, neutral is between 1 and 2. Your only choice, really, is below first or between 1 and 2. Plus, I'll agree with the above posters. Nothing on bikes was standard. Throttle, brake, buttons locations were all over the place. |
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Not always true. I have a right hand shift (1 up - 3 down pattern) with an extra heel lever called a neutral finder. When you are in any gear but 1st, you pull the clutch, heel the lever and it goes to neutral. I use it when moving at speed and I need my throttle hand to dig something out of my pocket (or whatever else I need my right to do) while coasting. After I'm done I upshift back to match my coasting speed. It's kind of a neat feature Cool, learn something new everyday. I spoke to guy in Philly that has a Royal Enfield and he did it up into a desert WW II paint job. He was wanting to put a side car on too.  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNXl7nH5Yu8Quoted:
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Because neutral is only used when you are stopped. Say you wanted to push start your bike. You put it in neutral and start running along side it. You jump on and down shift to start the engine otherwise you would have to get your foot under the shifter to up shift to start it. Not always true. I have a right hand shift (1 up - 3 down pattern) with an extra heel lever called a neutral finder. When you are in any gear but 1st, you pull the clutch, heel the lever and it goes to neutral. I use it when moving at speed and I need my throttle hand to dig something out of my pocket (or whatever else I need my right to do) while coasting. After I'm done I upshift back to match my coasting speed. It's kind of a neat feature Cool, learn something new everyday. I spoke to guy in Philly that has a Royal Enfield and he did it up into a desert WW II paint job. He was wanting to put a side car on too. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CNXl7nH5Yu8 |
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And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go.  And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that.
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And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Not many people have to shift while their knees are bouncing off the pavement in turns. |
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And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. On many sportbikes sure, you just flip the linkage, and there are a lot of aftermarket companies making parts to do such easily. It's a little more challenging on bikes with the shift lever directly on the shaft, and there are a whole lot of those. It would take a new custom shift drum or a convoluted linkage setup... |
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And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. +1.... I reversed the shift pattern on my Ducati Superlight many years ago. Was a lil weird getting use to but was fun going up thru the gears... |
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And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. so you don't ruin your boots. 
[And I'm not talking about the little bit of wear the shifter would make on the top of your boot.] |
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The 'one-down, four up' shifting is called the "international" shift pattern.
In the mid to late 1970's, Japanese and European manufacturers decided having different shift patterns were simply too difficult for the average person to remember, and in fact was the cause of many accidents. Some riders that were used to downshifting by pushing the pedal down, were actually up shifting on certain bikes, and not scrubbing off speed, occasionally experienced some confusion and crashed. [:// Most all street and off-road bikes with the exception on small pit bikes with three and four speed automatic clutches, now use the same shift pattern. Manual transmissions on most cars and trucks follow a standard "H" pattern, so why not bikes? The only way to change the pattern on most motorcycle's is to replace the shift stopper detent, and the shift drum with a set from an identical engine that had a different pattern to begin with. I work on a lot of small Honda's from the 70's and swapping common parts to change the pattern is pretty simple. To change it on most other bikes would require a new shift drum be made, and the cost/hate to do this is out of reach of most people. |
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Not many people have to shift while their knees are bouncing off the pavement in turns. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Not many people have to shift while their knees are bouncing off the pavement in turns. And I feel truly sorry for all of those people. And my knee doesn't bounce, more of a nice smooth slide 
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And I feel truly sorry for all of those people. And my knee doesn't bounce, more of a nice smooth slide
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Not many people have to shift while their knees are bouncing off the pavement in turns. And I feel truly sorry for all of those people. And my knee doesn't bounce, more of a nice smooth slide
You're the guy with sparkley sliders, aren't you.... 
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Because neutral is only used when you are stopped. Say you wanted to push start your bike. You put it in neutral and start running along side it. You jump on and down shift to start the engine otherwise you would have to get your foot under the shifter to up shift to start it.  have you ever tried bump-starting a bike in first gear?
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have you ever tried bump-starting a bike in first gear?Quoted:
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Because neutral is only used when you are stopped. Say you wanted to push start your bike. You put it in neutral and start running along side it. You jump on and down shift to start the engine otherwise you would have to get your foot under the shifter to up shift to start it. have you ever tried bump-starting a bike in first gear?probably not, would usually just lock up the rear. I've always gone with 2nd for street bikes and 3rd for thumpers. I've pushed bikes off with my boot, riding beside them a few times
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And I feel truly sorry for all of those people. And my knee doesn't bounce, more of a nice smooth slide
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Not many people have to shift while their knees are bouncing off the pavement in turns. And I feel truly sorry for all of those people. And my knee doesn't bounce, more of a nice smooth slide
Useless fact: I never had the chance to get to a formal track day, but was a little too sporty for my own good back in the mid 90s on my GSXR. Keith Code's book was in the study rotation when grad school texts got boring. I never actually touched a knee down on the street, only the parking lot. I did, however, grind off a fair bit of the toe slider on one of my boots near Loch Raven Reservoir in Baltimore. It's a fair bet that I was leaned pretty far over, as the GSXR750W at the time had lean angle clearance bested by only by the 916 at the time.
I miss that old bike. It was a big heavy freight train that forced the rider to be smooth on the controls. Riding one of the new models with a slipper clutch & fuel injection almost felt like cheating. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Because no one wants to be in neutral. If you need a gear and need one now, then you can always jam the shifter down and get going. Off roading and stopped in traffic it becomes the easiest way to know your in a gear.
There is little mechanical reason for its location. On certain dedicated bikes it doesn't matter much or may have benefits to another pattern |
| The motorcycles we rented in the Philippines had backwards shifting. You'd go down to upshift. Some of them had another pedal on the back side so you could kick the back of the shift pivot down to downshift. I'm pretty sure it's so you can ride barefoot or in flipflops. |
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And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. I bought Woodcraft components to shift my D675 and it was interesting but took awhile to get used to. |
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Okay, here's a question: if one was to say "1 down, 5 up," does this mean you shift up five more gears or that you shift up to the fifth gear? On my Ninja I shift down for first, then I can shift up to sixth gear. On my Concours I shift down for first then up through fifth to overdrive. Two similar but different situations. But does the saying mean "down to first, then through four (or five) gears to the top gear, fifth (or sixth)? |
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Okay, here's a question: if one was to say "1 down, 5 up," does this mean you shift up five more gears or that you shift up to the fifth gear? On my Ninja I shift down for first, then I can shift up to sixth gear. On my Concours I shift down for first then up through fifth to overdrive. Two similar but different situations. But does the saying mean "down to first, then through four (or five) gears to the top gear, fifth (or sixth)? You're thinking about this way too hard. |
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Okay, here's a question: if one was to say "1 down, 5 up," does this mean you shift up five more gears or that you shift up to the fifth gear? On my Ninja I shift down for first, then I can shift up to sixth gear. On my Concours I shift down for first then up through fifth to overdrive. Two similar but different situations. But does the saying mean "down to first, then through four (or five) gears to the top gear, fifth (or sixth)? If your bike has 6 gears, there is one gear below neutral and 5 gears above neutral. 
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Because neutral is only used when you are stopped. Say you wanted to push start your bike. You put it in neutral and start running along side it. You jump on and down shift to start the engine otherwise you would have to get your foot under the shifter to up shift to start it. Standing still, you put it in 2nd gear, pull in the clutch lever, and start running. Jump on, pop the clutch, and ride away. Go ahead and try that in first gear, but put it on YouTube for the rest of us to watch. |
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Since motorcyles use a shift drum which rotates, and not a series of selector rods like a car's standard trans, the position of neutral must be located somewhere between the bottom position and the top position. As other's have said, reaching the end of the pattern in a hurry and finding no power while riding isn't ideal, so most motorcycle companies put neutral between 1st and 2nd, and is actually a special relief position on the shift drum detent that allows the detent wheel to land in a small position between the valleys of 1st and 2nd positions.
This 5 speed shows the neutral position as a shallow relief the detent wheel will stay in between 1 and 2. This is why finding neutral is deliberate, and sometimes difficult if you are too fast, or too intentional in your tug on the shifter. 
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http://mechanics.stackexchange.com/questions/2411/what-is-the-technical-reason-the-engineer-decided-the-motorcycle-gear-pattern-as
The technical reason that manufacturers have chosen to use a sequential shift pattern with their gearbox configurations is that a standard shift plate that allows the selection of any gear desired is too bulky to fit into modern motorcycles.
The REAL REASON this configuration is used is that it's defined in the US Code of Federal regulations under Title 49. As stated in other responses, neutral is in the position between 1st and 2nd gear as a form of logic and safety. In a sequential transmission the sensibility of placing neutral between 3rd and 4th gears creates user difficulty in getting to desired gears after stopping. The only logical place to have neutral exist is between 1st and 2nd gear due to safety and usability concerns. Background Motorcycle shift patterns are purely the result of the technical layout and logic of the shift linkage within the transmission and the usage of a sequential transmission. Most modern motorcycles use a shift drum as opposed to legacy motorcycles mainly relying upon a shift plate. Shift Drum Image 
The shift drum has grooves around the outside of the drum that the ends of shift forks ride within. As the drum turns the grooves will shift for a particular shift fork sliding gears along the primary shaft or secondary shaft back and forth and placing them into locking positions to maintain a particular gear. The only logical methodology would be to have the gears operate sequentially in order for them to placed into position in order of use. Regulatory The Code of Federal Regulations in the United States defines that the left will be used for shifting and that if there are more than two gears on the motorcycle the pushing the shifter down will take you to a 'An upward motion of the operator’s toe shifts transmission toward lower numerical gear ratios (commonly referred to as ‘‘higher gears’’), and a downward motion toward higher numerical gear ratios (commonly referred to as ‘‘lower gears’’). If three or more gears are provided it shall not be possible to shift from the highest gear directly to the lowest gear, or vice versa' Citation Title 49 (Transportation) Section 571.123 - Standard No. 123; Motorcycle controls and displays. The CFR does not define where nuetral shall be. The CFR defines the order of the gears but obviously not the mechanism. Engineering and logic have continued to define the mechanism since the 60's when it was first introduced. Technical Motorcycles use a sequential transmission. A sequential transmission will typically leverage dogs and slots on the gears to engage and/or desengage particular gears and a shift or selector drum to operate shift forks to move the gears into the appropriate positions for engagement/disengagment. The shift drum is really the key to defining the order of gears and it so happens to match the requirements, in the US at least, that the government has enacted for safety. The gears shall be in order of highest to lowest. Motorcycle technology has been an exercise of reduction over the past 100 plus years. Simplification, weight reduction and reliability have driven the changes primarily. Initially, shift plates were used and acted very similarly to a cars H pattern we see today. The invention, use and popularization of the shift drum have driven weight, simplicity and reliability to the next level. As the drum rotates from the use of a paw drive (frequently) the outer diameter of the drums grooves change position, moving the shift forks and sliding transmission gears called sliders back and forth along the primary or secondary shaft to lock into place with a partner gear with the use of dogs and slots either protruding from or cut into a partner gear. This mechanism locks the particular gear into place along the transmission shafts thus engaging the gear. The key is the shift drum and it's rotation with the cut grooves. Prior to this mechanism a cam plate was frequently used below the two shafts that would move the shift forks. The cam plate design proved unreliable but did fulfill the initial duty of changing a sequential transmissions gears in the proper order. My first bike had a 1-N-2-3 left-side tank shifter (stick shift). My second bike had a right-side foot shift with 1 up, 2-3-4 down. Every other bike I've owned had the regular left side foot shift with the Government-mandated 1-down, 2-3-4-5 up shift pattern. I've never had a problem adapting from one to the other, and never cared about the shift pattern as long as it got me down the road. |
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You're the guy with sparkley sliders, aren't you.... Quoted:
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1 up 5 down is the only way to go. And can be done on any bike, though most will never need it. In fact, I bet many reading this won't understand why you say that. Not many people have to shift while their knees are bouncing off the pavement in turns. And I feel truly sorry for all of those people. And my knee doesn't bounce, more of a nice smooth slide
You're the guy with sparkley sliders, aren't you.... Nah, A&G leather pucks. Good feel, long life and low profile |
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Because. Shift patterns, or side of the bike was not universal in the seventies. The bike I'm restoring (Kawaski H2) is N12345, with neutral on the bottom and the shift shaft comes out the clutch cover on the right side so you could shift on the right side if you wanted. (I'm not sure how you'd set up the rear brake though) A number of British and Euro bikes at the time shifted on the right. I'm going to speculate though, that the way a constant mesh trans works, it's easier and saves a little space to put neutral between two gears than on the outside of the gear set. Neutral needs to be near 1st gear because you can only shift the gears in order, so there you go, neutral is between 1 and 2. Your only choice, really, is below first or between 1 and 2. Plus, I'll agree with the above posters. Bikes in the U.S. got shifters and brake pedals standardized in '74. Pre '74 Sportsters had rear brake on the left, shifter on the right. My Bultaco was the same set up. Just about all the Japanese bikes had right rear brake, left shifter. |
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Kawasaki's have a "grandmother" for the gearbox, Kawasaki's Positive Neutral Finder.
The Positive Neutral Finder system is a device that prevents the transmission from shifting from first into second when it is at a standstill. Once the bike is under way, the centrifugal force of a spinning transmission shaft disengages the device, ideally allowing unhindered upshifts." |