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Posted: 6/15/2002 10:38:28 PM EST
From another site: Phony "Hate Crime" Witness Confesses that Morris Dees Bought Perjury The San Diego Times-Union was the only newspaper to cover the story of Greg Withrow this past August, who admitted that his allegation of being nailed to a cross, like a crucifixion, on 8 August 1987 was his own doing. He had 4 friends nail him to a cross and slightly cut his throat. Withrow had testified against Tom Metzger in the highly publicized Portland case and falsely swore that Metzger told some Skinheads to beat up immigrants. Withrow now says that Morris Dees, of the SPLC paid him $1500 to falsely testify against Metzger. He added that the only other witness against Metzger, David Mazella, also was paid by Dees to lie. As a result Metzger lost the suit, costing him his home and business. Withrow said that Mazella ccontinued to receive thousands of dollars from Dees to keep his mouth shut during the five years Metzger spent appealing the case to the Supreme Court. Then Dees cut off Mazella's slush fund. Withrow has now filed a $32 million dollar suit against Dees and the Jewish Anti-Defamation League. At the time he alleged that Metzger had ordered unknown persons to carry out the ' brutal attack. ' Withrow was financed by the ADL on a national speaking tour telling his phony story. Withrow was featured in many newspaper accounts and in People Magazine. On ' Oprah ' women wept as he related his tale. Actor Woody Harrelson paid Withrow for the movie rights to his story. Harrelson planned to play Withrow in the film. He even testified before a California Senate Judiciary Committee in 1993 to help pass state's hate crime laws.
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 10:59:34 PM EST
I will bet this story will be ALL OVER the mainstream Media...NOT!!!
Link Posted: 6/15/2002 11:50:17 PM EST
Boy, that is really unethical to pay somebody to lie on the witness stand. They should revoke Dee's license to practice law.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 12:41:10 AM EST
Well, we know he lied at least once. The only question is, was it then or now? Be interesting to see how this plays out.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:41:15 AM EST
Jeez, I hope it's been 20 years since Withrow has had a tetnus shot [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:50:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 4:48:44 AM EST
No suprise here, typical actions by Morris Sleeze and his organization!!
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 4:56:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By raf: Why not list the "...[..]other site" so we can see the article for ourselves, and assess its validity?
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Ya, where did this come from, and when was it released?
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 5:20:01 AM EST
I don't believe this to be accurate, until there is some hard proof, and not info quoted from an anonymous website. It is also interesting to see the Nazis pour out of the woodwork to bash the SPLC for awhile. The SPLC and ADL have political agendas, and I don't always agree with them, but both organizations do good work. I don't know about Morris Dees. If this were true about him, then he should suffer the consequences of his actions, but I am also not inclined to believe that a POS dirtbag like Tom Metzger was innocent all along.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 6:14:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 6:59:00 AM EST
From another site: Phony "Hate Crime" Witness Confesses that Morris Dees Bought Perjury The San Diego Times-Union was the only newspaper to cover the story of Greg Withrow this past August, who admitted that his allegation of being nailed to a cross, like a crucifixion, on 8 August 1987 was his own doing. He had 4 friends nail him to a cross and slightly cut his throat.
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Funny, but I can't even find a mention of the San Diego Times-Union existing...unless it went out of business and no longer publishes. Anyone else have better luck/knows of it's existance?
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 7:10:09 AM EST
Typical "Gray" or "Black" agitprop work from the white supremacist crowd; false information is purported to be from a non-existent legitimate source, and then is loudly touted as being the "truth." Remember, these guys (Goebbels) invented modern propaganda and media maipulation techniques.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 7:37:25 AM EST
You dont expect Imboogaloo to actually bother with sources and verification do you? "Its on the internet, its GOT to be true!"
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 8:00:50 AM EST
NATEZ The tone of your posts indicate you might not understand the big picture here. According to Justice Department stats the biggest crime in the US is Black on Black. The second is Black on White. White on Black is by far the lowest. Anti-Jewish crime happens but is relatively rare. The problem is that assholes like Dees concentrate on the lower part of the problem while ignoring the real crime issue. For, instance a few years ago near Miami two black shitheads attacked a white couple and killed the guy while raping and leaving the girl for dead. According to the girl the blacks used racial hatred while doing their acts. Where was Dees when this happen? Why wasn't he outraged at the situation? Why didn't he use the resources of the SPLC to go after the black culprits? The answer is that he doesn't really care and it doesn't fit into his anti white agenda. He is more interested in bringing civil suits against a few right wing nuts instead of doing the right thing to stop crime and attacks on innocent people. My experience is that left wing groups like the SPLC will lie, cheat and steal to promote their stupid "righteous" causes. Meanwhile whites get attacked by blacks and crime is out of control in inner city Atlanta with no public outrage. I think that in the US you are much much safer as a black person showing up to a KKK rally in Mississippi than a white person walking down the streets of South Chicago.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 8:35:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2002 8:40:10 AM EST by natez]
Originally Posted By Flash66: NATEZ The tone of your posts indicate you might not understand the big picture here...
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Oh, I understand the big picture, and tend to have a little better knowledge about UCR stats and factors behind crime rates than the average bear. The thing is, SPLC and ADL aren't anti-crime organizations, they are anti-supremacist and hate crime organizations. Asking why they aren't concerned with traditional, "normal" crime types is kind of like asking why the the NRA hasn't doesn't anything about inner-city poverty or high gasoline prices. SPLC does cover and detail hate crime and hate group activity directed against Caucasians and other ethnic groups, but there isn't as much of it. Most cross-ethnic group, crime in this country, probably about 99.99 percent, is "equal-opportunity" and is committed for traditonal reasons. If someone from a particular group isn't safe in parts of time, it probably has a lot more to do with their economic status than their race. The rough places in Chicago and Atlanta aren't safe for anyone, regardless of race. Any middle class citizen who wanders into the wrong part of town is a potential victim. ADL and SPLC both consider Nation of Islam and the New Black Panthers to be violent extremist groups, and with good cause, but these folks haven't exactly been blowing up office buildings or pipe-bombing concerts at the Olympics, like their white supremacist counterparts, have they? Since they haven't been out there actively doing evil, SPLC and ADL haven't put as much focus on them as they do the high-profile, often moronic antics of the white supremacist/separatist/christian identity types. I expect that we will see that change, especially with all of the emerging information that points to groups like NOI funneling convicts overseas to join Al-Qaeda and the like. SPLC and the ADL both put out good information and are excellent open-source means of information about white supremacists, although one should take their info with a grain of salt. I personally do not like SPLC's constant labeling of the Nazis, Klan and their ilk as "right-wing," because I think it is not accurate and defames the rest of us conservative types. SPLC also seems to take a sometimes hostile attitude to organized gun owners, but it usually is when these groups start crossing over to the whole white supremacist side, like the slack-jawed morons selling copies of "The Turner Diaries" at the gun show. Part of that issue is us gun owners being a little more selective of the company we keep and shutting out the nazi-types from legitimate events. Just because they have First Amendment rights doesn't mean we have to allow them to express them in our forums, and we need to take a little better responsibility over that and loudly condemn these whack-jobs any time they stick their ugly little haeds up.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 10:03:18 AM EST
Originally Posted By natez: SPLC does cover and detail hate crime and hate group activity directed against Caucasians and other ethnic groups, but there isn't as much of it.
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Bullshit alert. If there "isn't as much of it", then why are there more blacks convicted of "hate crimes" than whites? Even though in MANY clear-cut hate-crime cases, the DAs refuse to prosecute for the "hate" but instead just deal with them as normal "crime"? Best example of that was the Mardi Gras Riot in Seattle last year. About 30-40 black youths decided to run through the crowd beating up white folks. They killed one white man who went to the defense of a white woman whom the blacks had beaten to the ground. Throughout this, the blacks were shouting racial slurs. But it wasn't a "hate crime" according to the DA, and none of them were prosecuted under "hate crime" legislation. Instead, the DA convicted one black "youth" for the murder, and let everything else slide.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 10:06:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 12:33:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2002 12:36:52 PM EST by natez]
How many organized, African-American groups are there that call for whites to be rounded up and killed? How many organized, domestic originated anti-caucasian organizations are there in the US that advocate violence against white folks? How many bombings have they committed? How many banks have they robbed? How many murders have they been linked to? How many of these groups are legally classified (under 28 CFR Criminal Predicate standards) as criminal extremist groups? The answer is two (or maybe a couple more if you count some prison gangs active on the outside) and none, none and none. The refusal of a local DA to prosecute for racially-motivated incidents has nothing to do with SPLC's stated mission. I am not saying that these folks aren't a problem as well, but the most active dangerous nuts are obviously going to get more attention than the ones who just talk a lot. I think that as the ties between Islamic terrorist groups and domestic organizations comes to light, we will see more focus on groups like NOI. As far as you "B.S." alert," you are wrong. Here is what 2000's UCR stats say about hate crimes in the US (2000 being the last year with full stats available): Total Hate Crimes reported: 8,144 By race: Anti-Black: 2,904 Anti-White: 886 Anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native: 57 Anti-Asian Pacific Islander: 281 Anti-Multi-Racial Group: 240 By Religion: Anti-Jewish 1,119 Anti Catholic: 56 Anti Protestant: 59 Anti-Islamic: 28 Anti-Other Religious Group: 173 Anti-Multi Religious Group: 44 Anti-Atheist/Agnostic: 4 By Ethnicity: National Origin: Anti-Hispanic: 567 Anti-Other Ethnicity/National Origin Anti Sexual orientation (including 22 anti-hetero sexual crimes): 1,330 So where did your stats come from? Mine came from [url]http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/ucr.htm[/url] edited to fix the link
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 12:54:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By raf:
Originally Posted By 71-Hour_Achmed:
Originally Posted By natez: SPLC does cover and detail hate crime and hate group activity directed against Caucasians and other ethnic groups, but there isn't as much of it.
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Bullshit alert. If there "isn't as much of it", then why are there more blacks convicted of "hate crimes" than whites? Even though in MANY clear-cut hate-crime cases, the DAs refuse to prosecute for the "hate" but instead just deal with them as normal "crime"? Best example of that was the Mardi Gras Riot in Seattle last year. About 30-40 black youths decided to run through the crowd beating up white folks. They killed one white man who went to the defense of a white woman whom the blacks had beaten to the ground. Throughout this, the blacks were shouting racial slurs. But it wasn't a "hate crime" according to the DA, and none of them were prosecuted under "hate crime" legislation. Instead, the DA convicted one black "youth" for the murder, and let everything else slide.
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Are you sure you typed your second para the way you intended? As written, it contradicts the rest of your post.
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I don't see any contradiction. He's saying 'bullshit' to 'there isn't as much of it' Then he goes on to say that in spite of the reluctance by SOME DA's to charge hate crimes when whites are the victim, there STILL are way more convictions when they do, compared to cases when others are the victims. Would you mind explaining what you meant? Somehow I just don't see whatever you saw.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 1:07:24 PM EST
Anti-Black: 2,904 Anti-White: 886 What's not to understand? Mind you, this is reported crimes, not convictions, but I think it makes its point rather well. Going by simple numbers, it would seem that more blacks, despite the fact that they only make up what, 18-20% of the population, are victims of crimes committed because they are members of a particular race than whites, who make up around half the population but only had about one-third the number of hate crimes against them. If the rates were equal, the whites would have had about 9,000 hate crimes reported. But the rates aren't equal, and are much higher for blacks. Or Jewish people, for that matter, who make up about 3% of the population but had about 1,119 hate crimes reported. Again, that doesn't mean that hate crimes against white people should not be investigated and prosecuted to full extent of the law, or that when organized groups conduct campaigns of racially-motivated crimes against whites that they shouldn't be hunted down and locked up. What it does signify is that there is a lot more of this type of crime against blacks (and Jews) than against other ethnic groups. The groups that perpetrate this kind of activity are rightfully going to get more scrutiny. The other hate groups will get theirs, too, but there is such a thing as prioritization; you go after the biggest, most dangerous threats first.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 1:10:35 PM EST
Another thing to consider is where the heck are all of these "facts" about crimes against the white people and the misdeeds of the SPLC coming from? This all reads like, and sounds suspicously like the venomous bile spewed forth from the nazi crowd. Anyone care to comment on that?
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 1:20:06 PM EST
natez Your "hate crime" stats were interesting but don't really mean anything. The people who bookkeep things like that have an agenda that sometimes hides the truth. Let me give you a personal example. My wife's cousin is a white boy from Indiana. A couple of years ago he went to a rock concert in downtown Cleveland. After the concert he did a stupid white boy thing. We decided to stop into a bar to get a beer. As he walked into the bar he noticed he was the only white person there. As he turned around to walk out someone pulled out a gun a blew his head off. Of course nobody knows who did it. The killing was not done for "economic" reasons although his body was robbed before the police came. It was never reported as a hate crime. The police told my wife's brother that he was stupid for allowing his son to come to Cleveland. For some reason I do not remember Mr. Dees coming to Cleveland and filing civil rights lawsuits against the bar, the city and the individuals. The stupid police didn't even bother to spend more than a couple of hours investigating the crime. How many more crimes against white people are swept under the rug? The liberals love to make the minorities the victims but ignore the real crimes in the country. It doesn't fit their agenda to recognize the real danger. It is kinda like the ATF concentrating on Waco and Ruby Ridge for a $200 tax violation instead of going after all the real weapons violations in inner city LA. I think your arguments would be better received on the Democratic Underground forum.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 1:48:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By natez: Another thing to consider is where the heck are all of these "facts" about crimes against the white people and the misdeeds of the SPLC coming from? This all reads like, and sounds suspicously like the venomous bile spewed forth from the nazi crowd. Anyone care to comment on that?
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Yeah, Me!! Morris Dees is a lyin' scum! [b]Skinhead reveals betrayal of movement was all a ploy The San Diego Union - Tribune; San Diego, Calif.; Aug 25, 2001; Kelly Thornton; Words in Document: 849 Available Formats: Buy Full Text Abstract: A lawsuit filed in Butte County on the 14th anniversary of his crucifixion demands that California hate-crime legislation be overturned and "political prisoners" convicted of hate crimes be released. [Greg Withrow] contends the legislation is based on his perjured testimony. Withrow's suit seeks $32 million in damages for those convicted of hate crimes, and for [Tom Metzger], his former mentor, who lost his house and business after a civil jury found him responsible for inciting skinheads to fatally beat an Ethiopian immigrant in Oregon. Metzger hasn't spoken to Withrow in years because he believed Withrow's conversion was authentic, and because he thought Withrow accused him of ordering the crucifixion.[/b] [url]http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/sandiego/[/url]
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 2:03:43 PM EST
Natez; For some skinny on Morris Dees, go here (has footnotes): [url]http://johnnyreb22553.tripod.com/southernheritage/id16.html[/url]
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 2:25:36 PM EST
So what's your point? My points? Tom Metzger and his ilk are evil people. Anyone care to defend him? SPLC is a good, but flawed organization. You could say the same about a lot of things. I don't have any personal knowledge of Morris Dees, but his organization has done a fairly good job of making life difficult for neo-nazi groups. Good for them. If you are upset because they haven't done similar acts for crimes against white people, well, they are a private organization, with a narrow mission. And, in the cases cited, I have yet to see anyone point out the militant, anti-white organization responsible. The SPLC's particular forte has always been going after white supremacists. Complaining about the fact they do not target black supremacists as actively is like complaining that they don't serve tacos at Oktoberfest. UCR stats (the only comprehensive, even close too accurate crime stats out there) rebut your points of contention, namely that whites suffer more hate crimes, numerically or proportionately, than other ethnic groups. If hate crimes had uniform rates, then whites would have higher numbers. They don't, which means if you are not white, you are far more likely to be a victim of these acts. Any violent crime against any person is a bad thing. Hate crimes, a hotly debated topic are more cause for concern regardless of the race of the victim and the attackers, because they indicate motives out of norm and beyond normal control. Organized groups engaging in these kinds of activities are another level entirely. Everyone has there little anecdotes, but no one has yet told me which conspiracy or organization is behind the purported wave of everyone else on white people ethnic violence. As far as commenting loudly on this topic, we have a responsibility to police our own ranks. When the crap that passes for "facts" that get spread by the white supremacist elements, it is vital that the stuff be slapped down hard and debunked, lest anyone who doesn't know better believe it. I am hearing a lot of stuff here that sounds like the "gray" and "black" propaganda of the white supremacists, which only reinforces my point that this stuff needs to be thoroughly debunked when it shows up.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 2:40:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 2:51:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By natez: So what's your point? My points? Tom Metzger and his ilk are evil people. Anyone care to defend him?
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I think if you check your facts, you will see you are condeming evil while embracing evil
SPLC is a good, but flawed organization. You could say the same about a lot of things. I don't have any personal knowledge of Morris Dees, but his organization has done a fairly good job of making life difficult for neo-nazi groups.
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Morris Dees IS SPLC. How can you defend SPLC when you know nothing about it's founder and leader? Did you check the footnote sources in my post? Are you one of those cops who gets the SPLC "alerts" they send to leo, and believes every word they say about "White, Christian, Constitutionalist Militia types? You commented on "Goebbels's Prppaganda" in a post above. Maybe you should take a closer look at who are his real descendents today.....
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 2:54:05 PM EST
This is a real story. I just did a google search and there is no San Diego Times-Union, but there is a Union-Tribune in San Diego and if you do an archive search with the name Greg Withrow it comes up. I wonder if Oprah was weeping because justice had been perverted once again, or because Metzger lost his business due to scum every bit as low as himself?
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:03:27 PM EST
Natez, your ridiculous assertions that Morris Dees and the SPLC are not capable of this sort of thing, and that they are good organizations is nauseating and tiresome. And to try to insinuate that anyone who brings to light what corrupt and oportunistic scum they have proven to be, are nazis? This would be akin to accusing somebody who dared attack Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton about their corrupt and devious ways of being nazis as well. Your posts on this subject would be humerous if not for the fact that you are serious. Do you actually work for the SPLC? Maybe monitoring this site for potential "hate speech"? Or are you just a p.c. dork suffering from white guilt? And as far as backing up your argument with hate crime statistics from the FBI? Well, again those are reported incidents. Police DO NOT report black on white hate crime as hate crime. I know, I've been there and seen how things like this get treated by police. I could go on and on about your lack of fact and common sense posts. But I'm tired and don't have the energy. And I want to watch Black Hawk Down now.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:06:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By poikilotrm: This is a real story. I just did a google search and there is no San Diego Times-Union, but there is a Union-Tribune in San Diego and if you do an archive search with the name Greg Withrow it comes up. I wonder if Oprah was weeping because justice had been perverted once again, or because Metzger lost his business due to scum every bit as low as himself?
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link posted on pg. 1....
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:13:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/16/2002 3:30:15 PM EST by poikilotrm]
Originally Posted By natez: SPLC does cover and detail hate crime and hate group activity directed against Caucasians and other ethnic groups, but there isn't as much of it. Most cross-ethnic group, crime in this country, probably about 99.99 percent, is "equal-opportunity" and is committed for traditonal reasons.
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BWAHAHAHAHA! lessee, 20,000+ black on white rapes a year according to the FBI UCR, 100+/- white on black rapes. The vast majority of hate crimes are black on white pal, and there is tons of it. Have you been living in a cave in Berekely? Open your eyes and look around. I have NEVER heard a white man in a white neighborhood tell a passing black, "We're gonna kill you." I have heard it personally many a time when I was in black neighborhoods. Remember all those white race riots where they dragged blacks from their cars and attacked them without cause? Me neither. How about the other way around?
ADL and SPLC both consider Nation of Islam and the New Black Panthers to be violent extremist groups, and with good cause, but these folks haven't exactly been blowing up office buildings or pipe-bombing concerts at the Olympics, like their white supremacist counterparts, have they?
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Where is the proof that white supremecists or the tooth fairy for that matter set off the bomb in Centennial park? And those weren't white folks smacking into the WTC, the pentagon, or trying to blow up the WTC the first time. BTW, Dees and his ilk love the Nation of Islam and other black militant groups like it. They are stricken with that peculiar and downright bizarre liberal affliction that whites should be made to suffer at the hands of blacks and suffer mightily. I have met sick people like Dees and they never fail to both disgust and terrify me. As far as blowing things up, blacks shoot, knife, and bludegeon to death a lot white folks each year. So many in fact that one might think a race war of sorts was already underway. I don't care much for nazis or the KKK, but here is a little question since you doubt the violent tendencies of blacks: Who has caused the deaths of more blacks, the KKK in all its history or blacks last year?
SPLC and the ADL both put out good information and are excellent open-source means of information about white supremacists, although one should take their info with a grain of salt.
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As one should with all heavily slanted propaganda.
I personally do not like SPLC's constant labeling of the Nazis, Klan and their ilk as "right-wing," because I think it is not accurate and defames the rest of us conservative types.
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That is because Dees and the scum like him are socialists and commies. They don't want to acknowledge that Nazi is short for nationalist socialist. So again the demonize decent thinking people by taking the worst of thier own philosophy and project it onto conservatives, thus connecting nazi and rightwing in the minds of sheeple everywhere. Rather Stalinesque, eh?
SPLC also seems to take a sometimes hostile attitude to organized gun owners, but it usually is when these groups start crossing over to the whole white supremacist side, like the slack-jawed morons selling copies of "The Turner Diaries" at the gun show.
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Morris Dees and other evil scum like him hate freedom in any form, except as prescribed by his ilk.He has never once gone after a black supremecist group. Ask yourself why.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 3:19:58 PM EST
Originally Posted By natez: Anti-Black: 2,904 Anti-White: 886 What's not to understand?
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In order for it to count as a hate crime it has to be charged as one. When that gang of black kids in Atlanta murdered that white kid because he was white but let the black kid who was friends with the white kid go unharmed it was NOT charged as a hate crime. See the problem? These kids told the two young boys explicitly that they were going to kill this boy due to race and free the other due to race. The DA did not charge it as a hate crime. Of course if the little boy had called one of the killers a nigger as he was being beaten to death, I am certain he would have been charged and tried en absentia post mortem for his choice of words.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 4:29:51 PM EST
Originally Posted By poikilotrm: In order for it to count as a hate crime it has to be charged as one. . .
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Not true. UCR stats are reported monthly to the FBI by PD and SO records units (in smaller agencies the Chief or Sheriff's secretary does this). The UCR stat for "hate crime" is generated, in most agencies by checking a box or otherwise indicating on the initial report that the offense was "bias-related." It has nothing to do with whether or not charges are ever filed. Your community's Burglary rate has nothing to do with how many persons are actually charged with burglary, either. Since the nationwide clearance rate (where a suspect is identified and charged or the case is exceptionally cleared because the suspect is dead or otherwise can not be charged) for Burglaries is around 10%, your number of UCR-reported burglaries reflects burglaries reported to law enforcement, not suspects charged with Burglary.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 4:47:47 PM EST
[b] Originally Posted By poikilotrm: BWAHAHAHAHA! lessee, 20,000+ black on white rapes a year according to the FBI UCR, 100+/- white on black rapes. [/b] Again, most crime, period, is committed for "traditional" reasons (i.e., some people are scum), and have nothing to do with race. Violence is generally an equal opportunity deal. This is a "crime" issue, not a race one. Where do your stats come from? There were 90,000 reported forcible rapes in this country in 2000. There were about 9,000 blacks arrested for forcible rape. I can find no breakdown of the victims' race or ethnicity. In my experience, about 85-95% of forcible rapes are family member on family member, and race has nothing to do with it. [b] Where is the proof that white supremecists or the tooth fairy for that matter set off the bomb in Centennial park? [/b] Eric Rudolf. Yeah, he hasn't been arrested yet, but he did it. he is also a white supremacist. I have been to classes where some of SPLC's folks have instructed. They have their own agenda, and I don't always agree with it. By and large, they do good work. I stand by that. Since I have actually met folks who work for that organization, I think I have some perspective. Yes it is a left-wing organization. So what? Just because something originates from the wrong side of the political spectrum, doesn't mean that it is totally invalid.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 5:14:32 PM EST
Natez Thanks for participating in this thread. Its not often we get such a left wing anti-white view as you. I have a 17 year old son who just finished up his junior year in high school. We have very few blacks in the school. Something like 2%. Back in February he got in a fight with a black kid his same age. They were fighting over a girl. Typical high school crap. The school sees it all the time. During the shouting prior to the actual blows my son call the kid a nigger. The black kid also threw out some anti white names to my son. My son is not bigoted and that was probably the only time in his life he has used the "N" word. Guess what happen? My son got in tons of trouble and the black kid was made out to be a victim of racial hatred. The police was called in. The school talked to the DA about charging my son with hate crimes. It took me a month and $900 in legal fees to straighten things out. The black kid was never held responsible for any of the things he said to my son. See the big picture here? Dees would have been proud of the school and the DA. Another racist white kid taken care of. God forbid that a black person be held accountable for running his hand up a white girls dress and calling a white kid a "Cracker". However, using the N word is a big time hate crime. You must lead a very sheltered life with no real world experience in dealing with blacks.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 5:25:09 PM EST
Flash66, I would post this to defend "natez", but I suspect he can more than fight his own battles. Having said that, why if an obscure newspaper, that's name is incorrect in the first post, prints something do you thin that it makes it true?? I think most people on this site like to point out the left wing bias, poor, inaccurate or otherwise skewed reporting that is often done in the "media". So one media source says "blah, blah, blah, and blah", and you believe it hook line and sinker?? Whatever happend to innocent until PROVEN guilty?? Dees is accused of something, allegedly according to some newspaper no one has ever heard of, in regards to a crime another person was CONVICTED of. You seem awful ready to attack Dees and ignore questions about the reliability and source of the allegation against him.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 5:39:29 PM EST
Originally Posted By natez: [In my experience, about 85-95% of forcible rapes are family member on family member, and race has nothing to do with it.
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DUDE! Do you live in coastal Maine or something? New Hampshire? West Virginia? Of the reported rapes I saw firsthand and continue to see it is most often date rape followed by friends followed by strangers.
[b] Where is the proof that white supremecists or the tooth fairy for that matter set off the bomb in Centennial park? [/b] Eric Rudolf. Yeah, he hasn't been arrested yet, but he did it. he is also a white supremacist.
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Eric Rudolph, apart from being in the same apartment complex as Elvis, Judge Crater, Jimmy Hoffa, and Jim Morrison, was a anti-abortionist. The only people who think he is a white supremacist are the FBI and anyone who wants to further demonize white folks. He was in favor of saving the unborn, even little black babies.
I have been to classes where some of SPLC's folks have instructed. They have their own agenda, and I don't always agree with it. By and large, they do good work.
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Mussolini made the trains run on time and Stalin ended crime in the USSR. Good work, right? Scumbags with an agenda to harm others are scumbags with an agenda trying to harm others. These guys need to be dismissed as quickly as you might dismiss a "missionary" from Christian Identity.
Yes it is a left-wing organization. So what? Just because something originates from the wrong side of the political spectrum, doesn't mean that it is totally invalid.
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If you start with rot you end with rot.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 6:51:37 PM EST
OLY-M4gery My post here today did not mention the newspaper article. I have been a little off topic by relating two personal experiences about the Dees type of anti-white bias. I don't know if the article is correct or not. All I know is that when left wingers can't prove the facts they have tendency to lie. We see it all the time with the anti-gun people. We saw it with the ATF and FBI. We saw it it big time with the Clintons. I don't like Dees and his war on a minor problem in America. If he was interested in real justice then he would be after the tremendous black crime and racist attack on white America.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 7:03:09 PM EST
For the record: I am a white guy, pretty far to the right. I usually vote straight Republican, with the occasional Libertarian thrown in, and I always vote. I own many firearms, including evil black rifles, one I got through this board, and I shoot them often. I carry any time I leave the house, and would even if it weren't my job to carry. I live in Texas, in the toughest county in the state, in the toughest state in the country when it comes to criminals. I don't think left-wing commies are even allowed to stop for gas around here (ever hear "Uneasy Rider?"). My job frequently (and unfortunately) brings me into contact with members of the white supremacist crowd, along with other criminals. It is my job to know these folks, and I have a good deal of information about them, how they think and how they act. It usually starts off with little bits of misinformation and half-truths, and escalates from there. I happen to have more than a passing knowledge about sex offenders, as well. I'll stack my anecdotal knowledge of sex offenses up against yours any day. Flash, you should have taught your kid better. PC bull aside, everyone knows that kind of language has not been acceptable in polite company (or any, for that matter) since about 1960, and it wasn't even right back then. He (and you) got an expensive lesson in that, but I think that you don't grasp WHY what he said was wrong, regardless of the circumstance in which he used that epithet, which is why you aren't getting any of the rest of this. If a peace officer around here ever used that kind of language to a suspect or other citizen, regardless of the circumstances, he would buy at least a week off without pay, and rightfully so. Once again, I point out that I actually have met folks from the SPLC, which is more than most of the bashers and flamemeisters around here can say. The one in particular I recall was an ex-cop who is one of their field investigators. He is as right-wing, red-blooded gun-owning reactionary as most folks on this board. He works for an organization that shines light on the neo-nazi roaches in our society. It would be nice if they didn't have a reason to exist, but as long as folks like the National Alliance, Aryan Nations and the Klan are around, they need some kind of counterweight. If you hate them that much, it makes me suspicious of your true motives. What has the SPLC ever done to you? Taken your picture at the wrong rally? Did an article about you in the quarterly "Intelligence Report?" (which I get, by the way). Since the SPLC is so distasteful to you, why don't you form your own anti-nazi group? Or would that be too conflicted for you to accomplish? I need some more good open-source intel about white supremacists. Let me know when you have got it up and running so I can get on your mailing list.
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 10:27:49 PM EST
Here is an ex-cop I have met who has otherwise to say about SPLC and the Withrow story: "Your about to read this old cop's opinion about what I believe is two of the most hate promoting, anti-American entities in our nation. For years these two hate promoting entities have had our Constitutional police and military organization on their "hate" hit list. And of course they are funded with millions of dollars by unwitting fellow Americans and by powerful anti-American individuals and organizations. I speak of poverty pimp Morris Dees and the anti-Christ, anti-American, Anti-Defamation League (ADL). Now, the story is they are alleged to have promoted and paid for phony HATE CRIMES testimony and stories. Well, because of their past iniquitous history and activities, this allegation is the least of what I (and millions of others) believe these sinister members of the far far Left have committed and are capable of. Please don't take my word for all of this. Anyone wanting to know more about the history of several of the American people's most successful enemies go to the web and look up ADL and Mr. Dees. Of course, this is only my opinion! (I must say "opinion" because of their hundreds of high price whores with an "Esquire" after their names waiting to sue anyone who exposes them and their activities.) No, our police and military association has not checked out the below news story, but I hope more people will pass this news story on to everyone and to the most powerful people and organizations you can think of. This is because unless enough people hear about it, and show an interest and make some noise, there will not be any investigations and attention paid to it by our government elected things and law enforcement. It will probably get swept "under the rug" anyway as these two are two of the Republican and Democratic Socialist parties "most favorite sons".... however, we must try and also remember "The squeaky wheel still gets the oil"! - Officer Jack McLamb, Ret. P.S. If anyone has more information on this please pass it on to us cops and soldiers. We will do the same." "Officer McLamb was one of the most highly decorated members (if not the most highly decorated) of the Phoenix Police Department. Besides many acts of heroism, officer McLamb is also the originator of the "Officer Friendly" program, a program in which police officers visit school children to help them be better acquainted with the police. Officer McLamb was disabled in the line of duty and is now retired from the Phoenix Police Department."
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 10:29:05 PM EST
More about the heroic SPLC: They consider Larry Pratt, President of GOA a threat and accuse him of being a white supremacist, but completely leave out the fact that his wife is Mexican. The SPLC's fundraising practices have provoked the disapproval of watchdog groups that monitor charities: In 1993, the American Institute of Philanthropy assigned the SPLC a 'D' grade on a scale of A to F. [American Institute of Philanthropy xxxx 1993 Charity Watchdog Report] "By frequently mailing out such persuasive appeals, Dees and his associates have drawn financial support from about half a million Americans [by 1988.] The number of contributors and the amount they have given are probably greater than any left-of-center group has recorded in a comparable period in the history of American philanthropy." [The Progressive>, July 1988.] [b]Randall Williams who formed Klanwatch in 1981 as part of the SPLC's said in 1988: "We were sharing information with the FBI, the police, undercover agents. Instead of defending clients and victims we were more of a super snoop outfit, an arm of law enforcement. Randall and four staff attorney's resigned from the Center in 1986.[/b] [Ibid.] In 1994 the Montgomery Advertiser won a journalism award for a series of incisive and penetrating investigative articles exposing the unethical fundraising practices of Dees and the Southern Poverty Law Center including: Since August 1, 1984, the Law Center has taken in about $62 million in contributions and yet only spent about $21 million on actual programs, according to federal tax records. In a series of fund-raising letters the Law Center implied it forced the United Klan's of American to pay $7 million to the mother of lynching victim Michael Donald in 1987. Beulah Mae Donald actually received only $51,874.70 from the Klansmen. The Law Center collected millions as the result of fund-raising letters about the case. The Montgomery Advertiser conducted a "random sampling of donors - people who receive a steady stream of fund-raising letters and newsletters - showed they had no idea the Law Center was so wealthy." "They're drowning in their own affluence," Pamela Summers, a former SPLC legal fellow told The Montgomery Advertiser. "What they are doing in the legal department is not done for the best interest of everybody [but] is done as though the sole, overriding goal is to make money.""I think people associate the SPLC with going to court. And that's why they get the money. And they don't go to court." There have only been a handful of court cases over the years, many of which remain unresolved. [b]The SPLC which has crusaded for the rights of blacks for 23 years, is controlled by whites. It has hired only two black staff attorneys in its history, both of whom left unhappy. 12 of 13 former Black employees interviewed by the Montgomery Advertiser complained they experienced or observed racial problems during their employment. Several said the SPLC was "more like a plantation." [The Montgomery Advertiser. Feb. 13-14, 1994.][/b]
Link Posted: 6/16/2002 10:29:51 PM EST
(continued) In 1986 the entire SPLC legal staff resigned in protest of Dees refusal to address issues such as poverty, homelessness, voter registration and other issues they considered more pertinent to poor minorities rather than to get rich fighting a Klan chimera. [Harpers Magazine. Silverstein, Ken. The Church of Morris Dees. November 2000.] The Birmingham News has also investigated Dees and the SPLC in 1994 and found the following: [b]Christine Lee, a Harvard Law School alumnus who interned at the Center in 1989, "I would definitely say that there was not a single black employee with whom I spoke who was happy to be working there." "As I was told [at the SPLC,] they don't need Black people telling them how to handle Black issues," Lee said. Dees responded by saying, "We don't have black slots and white slots. Probably the most discriminated people in American today are white men when it comes to jobs because there are more of those who had more education opportunities and who the test scores show are scoring better and on paper look more qualified. That's why you have so many reverse discrimination cases around." [Birmingham News. Feb. 17, 1994.][/b] USA Today reported in 1996 that Dees' Southern Poverty Law Center was the "nations richest civil rights organization" with $68 million in assets. [USA Today. Aug. 3, 1996] Today it is closer to its stated goal of a $100 million endowment. In the same article Stephen Bright, one of Dees numerous former associates told a reporter that Dees is "a fraud who has milked a lot of very wonderful, well intentioned people." [Ibid.] At a news conference in Washington in April 1996, Dees announced that "Those [black] churches that have been burned in the South were certainly burned by racists." After subsequent investigation revealed there was no rash of black church burnings, many newspapers, including The Charlotte Observer, concluded that Dees "misinformed" the press. [Charlotte Observer. October 10, 1996.] [b]Dees has actively campaigned for for laws in which "associations of two or more persons" who train in the use of firearms for defensive purposes are declared "illegal militias."[/b] [Selected Speeches and Writings of Morris Dees.] Dees is well known for putting 'Hate on Trial' in the 1990 Portland. Oregon civil trial of extremist Tom Metzger. One of the witnesses in that trial, Greg Withrow, now accuses Dees of suborning perjury by paying witnesses [and then hush money for another 5 years] for their testimony. [San Diego Times Union. August 25, 2002.] Dees & the SPLC defames the entire Southern Heritage Community by labeling them 'Neo-Confederates.' [SPLC Intelligence Update. Summer 2000]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 2:32:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 2:37:34 AM EST by Arock]
NateZ, from today's news here's another one of those black on white things you say never happen... [url]webcenter.newssearch.netscape.com/aolns_display.adp?key=200206162247000123241_aolns.src[/url]
A heavily armed black man allegedly shot three people and tried to set patrons at a Manhattan bar on fire Sunday before being wounded by officers and arrested in what police said was a racially motivated attack.
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Witnesses told police that Johnson was ``ranting about white people and vowed revenge for thousands of years of suffering.'' Johnson said that he was having ``fun'' and that ``a real man chooses when he dies,'' Kelly said. Johnson was carrying three loaded guns, 153 rounds of ammunition and a samurai sword when he approached four white people walking in the East Village and told them: ``I have a problem with you,'' Kelly said. Johnson, who was also carrying a police baton, a bottle of kerosene, a fireplace lighter and more than 100 plastic handcuffs, then allegedly forced a woman to start putting flex cuffs on the hostages while he sprayed the crowd with kerosene and fired occasional shots at police cars outside. When Johnson pulled out the lighter, two Manhattan women jumped him, and he shot one in the leg, police said. Officers heard the shots and stormed the bar, grazing Johnson in the head and taking him into custody.
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Yeah NateZ...could never happen.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 3:09:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By Arock: NateZ, from today's news here's another one of those black on white things you say never happen...
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Never said that it couldn't or didn't. This guy is fairly obviously a lone nut case. What organized group was he a member of?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 4:56:41 AM EST
Crips? Bloods? Who knows? But they do exist! Luckily, it appears that they mostly eat their own young. Eric The(Whew!)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 5:03:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 7:03:15 AM EST by DScott]
Looks like the moral of *that* story is, "don't mess with New York women!" "When Johnson pulled out the lighter, two Manhattan women jumped him, and he shot one in the leg, police said. Officers heard the shots and stormed the bar, grazing Johnson in the head and taking him into custody." I agree with you natez, and believe that we have to "police our own", or suffer the negative consequences of being associated with all the neo-nazi nut-jobs and hate-mongering fools. Good job!
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:12:12 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 6:30:30 AM EST by liberty86]
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Flash66, Having said that, why if an obscure newspaper, that's name is incorrect in the first post, prints something do you thin that it makes it true?? I think most people on this site like to point out the left wing bias, poor, inaccurate or otherwise skewed reporting that is often done in the "media". So one media source says "blah, blah, blah, and blah", and you believe it hook line and sinker??
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Oly, having lived in San Diego, I can assure you it is not "an obscure newspaper", but is the largest circulation in the county. The statements made were made in court, and are verifiable. If you go to the link I posted on page 1 about Dees, you will find verifiable sources of info....
Whatever happend to innocent until PROVEN guilty?? Dees is accused of something, allegedly according to some newspaper no one has ever heard of, in regards to a crime another person was CONVICTED of. You seem awful ready to attack Dees and ignore questions about the reliability and source of the allegation against him.
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And you seem "awful ready" to defend him, apparently without checking my sources. The source of the allegations has been posted, several of them are "mainstream" news publications, hardly pushing a Nazi agenda....
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:24:45 AM EST
No, I didn't defend him. I don't even know who he is, really. I have heard of Metzger, couldn't pick him out of a line-up, do have some idea what he is about tho. As far as "in Court", anybody can claim anything about anybody "in Court". Esp. civil Court. An allegation is just that, it isn't any evidence of guilt. I notice tho' when the "media" has a story about guns, or "gun violence" a lot of people on this site go to "full cynism" mode and very carefully consider what the message is, how it is delivered and what errors does the account have......... I still find it suspicious that 1 newspaper in the world covers a story that could be signifigant follow up to a major story. With hate, lying, perjury, a falsely accused person going to jail and so on. I'm sorry my BS filter only has 2 settings normal and high. Apparently others have off and on, which is used according to what they want to believe.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:26:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: Whatever happend to innocent until PROVEN guilty?? Dees is accused of something, allegedly according to some newspaper no one has ever heard of, in regards to a crime another person was CONVICTED of. You seem awful ready to attack Dees and ignore questions about the reliability and source of the allegation against him.
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Seems you are very selective about who is "innocent until proven guilty". Your statement in this thread [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?id=120466[/url] is quoted below... [b]They should be flown back home, free of charge, I'm sure they are just mis-guided. When they get home they should be used a un-guided. In other words a B-52 w/o any other load should fly to it's max height, and drop them. They should be wrapped in pigskin and fitted with a drag chute, and enought 02 for the trip. They should also be filmed ala' "Fear Factor", with cameras mounted to them. [/b] The above quote is from a thread about 2 individuals "charged" with crimes, but not convicted! No mention of a trial in your post... Have you donated to SPLC before?
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:31:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2002 6:35:38 AM EST by OLY-M4gery]
And I didn't think anyone was paying attn. to my posts.............. Of course you must have missed the next line in that post....... [b]Of course that isn't what a civilized people will do, and we the US is civilized. Fortunately for them.[/b] You did that so well you could almost be a journalist.
Link Posted: 6/17/2002 6:53:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery: And I didn't think anyone was paying attn. to my posts.............. Of course you must have missed the next line in that post....... [b]Of course that isn't what a civilized people will do, and we the US is civilized. Fortunately for them.[/b] You did that so well you could almost be a journalist.
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It is indeed fortunate for them that lynch mob mentality does not YET prevail in our country...
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