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Posted: 8/24/2004 3:20:39 AM EST
Yesterday a local LEO was laid to rest here in Indy. He was the officer that was shot with the SKS. I have a lot of respect ofr our LEO community. I was curious why LEO's are basically given a military type funeral. Flag on the coffin, taps, riderless horse, etc. For a civilian funeral it seems like a lot of military symbolism...why?

On a side note, I'd like to give the person whom decided to have the 700 car funeral procession drive through Indy at rush hour, a piece of my mind. I'm sure most of these fellas had the day off, but those of us that may work more than one job were pretty much screwed when they basically shut down the downtown area.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:28:15 AM EST
for the same reason the fuzz calls us "civilians" they are the government
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:31:19 AM EST
Police departments are often called "para-military organizations". This is because they have many of the aspects of the military, i.e., rank, uniforms, etc.

Burials are usually of the military style.

Sorry that that police officer was so unthoughtful as to die and mess up your commute.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:38:25 AM EST
One reason for the major production is to remind the rest of you that a good man died protecting you. He got killed dealing with the sewage of society, you got to take a few minutes and reflect on that sacrifice. I kind of think people who die in the service of their nation, community or saving the lives of others, deserve a little respect from the average commuter. Especially since the average commuter is hard pressed to do more than call 911 and keep driving.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:41:04 AM EST
I just have one question. Now this from a very hormonal female right now, so be kind to me,

Did this officer deserve anything less then the funeral he was given?

He after all charged into danger, without thinking of himself, he thought of saving others, he lost his life for it. It's not like the city of Indianapolis DIDN'T know the details of this, it is all we have heard about for days.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 3:42:56 AM EST
We had to issue alot of radios to guys that were in the procession, but normally work under cover. He was a good kid. I had to handle the radio they buried him with. Really makes you reflect on what it all means. Thats as good a reason as any for a traffic snarl.

PS Most of the guys were off duty. We had a bunch of town departments, (like beechgrove) working south district last night for IPD.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:00:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 4:04:31 AM EST by monkeyman]
"On a side note, I'd like to give the person whom decided to have the 700 car funeral procession drive through Indy at rush hour, a piece of my mind. I'm sure most of these fellas had the day off, but those of us that may work more than one job were pretty much screwed when they basically shut down the downtown area."

Yeah, why don't you write them a fucking letter. Make sure to send a copy the cop's window and chidren so they know how fucking inconveinanced you were. I am sure they would be interested.


Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:03:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Police departments are often called "para-military organizations". This is because they have many of the aspects of the military, i.e., rank, uniforms, etc.

Burials are usually of the military style.

Sorry that that police officer was so unthoughtful as to die and mess up your commute.



Actually, I think the correct term is quasi-military not para-military.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:08:02 AM EST
Thats fine...y'all can rip me for this...but can you tell me what more was served by having this funeral procession at this time of day? It certainly didn't honor him anymore than if the'd done it at 1 or 2 in the afternoon. In my opinion it was done to inconvience people. As I'm sitting there late for my next job, I can't help but that the purpose was to make people stop and deal with this. I just want to know why this officer was honored more by shutting down traffic in Indy for close to an hour...I just simply don't get it.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:14:15 AM EST
I can somewhat understand ....

When my aunt died, the funeral procession went from the capitol city in Mississippi to a small town 50 miles away where my all of my mother's family is from. The traffic was backed up for miles because no one would pass us and they would drive only 45 mph or something ....

when my mother died a few months later, I insisted that we drive the speed limit, they said they couldnt do that, I opted to not have the procession to the small town cemetary. We just all met there after the drive. I could not see delaying hundreds of motorists again like that. My grieving process did not require that.

maybe a policeman is different, he is a visual part of the community, I would not have a problem with the traffic for a funeral for ANYBODY ... but it is just my preference not to in-convenience so many people.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:14:21 AM EST
We are a sworn agency. We take our profession seriously. Most of the time we take report runs, accident reports, find runaway children and unfortunately, write traffic tickets. Every day that a LEO goes to work, there is a chance that it will be their last. Certainly, the risk involved in everyday life for anyone could hold as much danger. People are killed in car accidents; construction workers fall from high places, white-collar workers die from stress related heart attacks. The difference is that police intentionally go in harms way. Maybe not often, sometimes never depending on the department. When they are called they must go. There is no other solution. They do not have the option of calling anyone except for each other. On those rare occasions the reason they became an officer is called to the test. Officer Tim Laird, an Ex-Marine and 16 year IPD veteran answered the call on August 18th, 2004. We buried him yesterday.

Sorry for your inconvenience. Hopefully we won't have to tie up traffic with another officer's funeral ever again.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:15:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 4:18:28 AM EST by sloth]

Originally Posted By monkeyman:
"On a side note, I'd like to give the person whom decided to have the 700 car funeral procession drive through Indy at rush hour, a piece of my mind. I'm sure most of these fellas had the day off, but those of us that may work more than one job were pretty much screwed when they basically shut down the downtown area."

Yeah, why don't you write them a fucking letter. Make sure to send a copy the cop's window and chidren so they know how fucking inconveinanced you were. I am sure they would be interested.





Thats fine...I suppose I am just missing the point here. Not trying to trying to sou8nd like an ass, but I'm quite sure thats how I'm coming across. My bad.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:17:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By sloth:
Thats fine...y'all can rip me for this...but can you tell me what more was served by having this funeral procession at this time of day? It certainly didn't honor him anymore than if the'd done it at 1 or 2 in the afternoon. In my opinion it was done to inconvience people. As I'm sitting there late for my next job, I can't help but that the purpose was to make people stop and deal with this. I just want to know why this officer was honored more by shutting down traffic in Indy for close to an hour...I just simply don't get it.




I believe the funeral was to begin at 11:30 am.. someone correct if I am wrong there. It started nearly an hour late because of all the LEO coming in from all over, not just Indy. It lasted app. 2 hrs. Like I said before, it was all over the news for several days, down to the route they were going to take. Plan ahead, use a different route.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:18:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By ViperEH:
I had to handle the radio they buried him with.



Excuse me if this is a sensitive question, but am I to understand a working radio was buried with the fallen officer?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:38:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By monkeyman:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Police departments are often called "para-military organizations". This is because they have many of the aspects of the military, i.e., rank, uniforms, etc.

Burials are usually of the military style.

Sorry that that police officer was so unthoughtful as to die and mess up your commute.



Actually, I think the correct term is quasi-military not para-military.



No...it is, in fact para-military.
Fire departments are also para-military organizations, there is even an old saying sometimes repeated to rookies that goes "The fire department is a para-military oganization, our job is to protect lives and property, and keep water flowing"
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:54:39 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 4:56:31 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 4:56:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By sloth:
Yesterday a local LEO was laid to rest here in Indy. He was the officer that was shot with the SKS. I have a lot of respect ofr our LEO community. I was curious why LEO's are basically given a military type funeral. Flag on the coffin, taps, riderless horse, etc. For a civilian funeral it seems like a lot of military symbolism...why?

On a side note, I'd like to give the person whom decided to have the 700 car funeral procession drive through Indy at rush hour, a piece of my mind. I'm sure most of these fellas had the day off, but those of us that may work more than one job were pretty much screwed when they basically shut down the downtown area.



get back in line, plebian... no complaining!
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:01:18 AM EST

Originally Posted By sloth:
..I just simply don't get it.



ding ding ding......

Sorry, After a few years in Seattle, I have become very disgusted with LEO's as a general rule. They have to come out of the chute doing the right thing for me to even give them any slack.

That said, an police officers funeral, while it should be totally civilain, can take all fucking day if they need to. And if you dont like that, dont ever call 911 and ask them to risk shit for your ass.

PS- Sorry you were late for work.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:07:05 AM EST

Originally Posted By legalese77:

Originally Posted By sloth:
Yesterday a local LEO was laid to rest here in Indy. He was the officer that was shot with the SKS. I have a lot of respect ofr our LEO community. I was curious why LEO's are basically given a military type funeral. Flag on the coffin, taps, riderless horse, etc. For a civilian funeral it seems like a lot of military symbolism...why?

On a side note, I'd like to give the person whom decided to have the 700 car funeral procession drive through Indy at rush hour, a piece of my mind. I'm sure most of these fellas had the day off, but those of us that may work more than one job were pretty much screwed when they basically shut down the downtown area.



get back in line, plebian... no complaining!




Shutting down traffic is a guaranteed way of making sure everyone is aware of the funeral
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:10:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:10:34 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:32:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:37:49 AM EST by Old_Painless]

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By Old_Painless:
Police departments are often called "para-military organizations". Well, at least since the 70s! This is because they have many of the aspects of the military, i.e., rank, uniforms, etc.


Good grief!

'Para-military' organizations'?

I haven't heard that phrase since the civil disturbances down in Central America! Or when referring to facist nations!

That sort of language is, quite frankly, obscene for use in this Country!



When I started my career as a Patrolman in 1970, funerals had been "military style" for years in our area. It was done as a sign of respect.

And, as you well, know, I do not use obscene language.



Burials are usually of the military style.

It's a part of the new 'military' mindset.

The funeral should be a civilian affair.



That seems to be your opinion. I guess if the fallen officer is your son or brother, you can make that decision.

However, this fine man's family choose a military style funeral. They have every right to do so.


Or is there some lack of connection that the surviving officers feel with civilians?


The "surviving officers" do not choose the funeral arangements. The grieving family does.



Sorry that that police officer was so unthoughtful as to die and mess up your commute.


How do you equate a Member asking about this aspect of an LEO funeral with some sort of 'glee' or 'insouisance' over the officer's death?

What 'mindset' should we call that?




Where did I mention "'glee' or 'insouisance' over the officer's death"? I didn't say that.


Old_Painless, just ask yourself if that was something that...

Nope. Nevermind!

Eric The(Sheesh!)Hun



What's up Eric?

You are a fine gentleman and usually levelheaded.

You disappoint me with your attitude towards honest policemen, of which I am proud to be (an ex-) one.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:39:44 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 5:41:53 AM EST by shotar]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 5:51:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By rn45:
We are a sworn agency. We take our profession seriously. Most of the time we take report runs, accident reports, find runaway children and unfortunately, write traffic tickets. Every day that a LEO goes to work, there is a chance that it will be their last. Certainly, the risk involved in everyday life for anyone could hold as much danger. People are killed in car accidents; construction workers fall from high places, white-collar workers die from stress related heart attacks. The difference is that police intentionally go in harms way. Maybe not often, sometimes never depending on the department. When they are called they must go. There is no other solution. They do not have the option of calling anyone except for each other. On those rare occasions the reason they became an officer is called to the test. Officer Tim Laird, an Ex-Marine and 16 year IPD veteran answered the call on August 18th, 2004. We buried him yesterday.


Once again, what is the connection with what you do as a profession with what the military does?



It seems we've hit upon one of Erics "trigger" topics

When did 'military-style' funerals become de rigeur for LEOs in this country? Ever since there have been officers. I have a picture of a 1931 police funeral in Manhattan that would give you fits. It has ARMORED CARS with 30 cal Brownings in the procession

Anything that serves to place some sort of 'veil' between law officers and the civilians who they serve is anti-Republican! Really. Then why is every police funeral I've ever been to 95% non-LEO, almost all of whom never knew the officer?

So y'all NOT understand this?

It's like being a civilian is second class citizenship nowadays. Well, it ain't and it will never be! I went to military funeral for a "civilian" just last month. 4 years Coast Guard and he left the service in 1969. I don't have a problem with it, actually thought is was a nice touch. Oh. To head off the next line of wailing, I'm told the Indy officer was a former Marine.

Eric The(Sheesh!)Hun

Eric, The occasion is a funeral for a good man and a good officer. Could we lay off of the personal agendas for just a little bit?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:00:51 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 6:08:40 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:07:51 AM EST
I think the widow wanted the police funeral. She had the option. We wanted to pay our respects to our fallen comrade. As is the custom, a lot of other departments send representatives to the funeral. That usually means a long funeral train.

We could have had a much shorter funeral train if we were burying a lawyer...
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:10:58 AM EST
Those who where in the military get the choice of a military burial anyway.

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:11:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 6:12:13 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:12:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:14:11 AM EST
Respect for flag
No part of the flag should ever be used as a costume or athletic uniform. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, and members of patriotic organizations. The flag represents a living country and is itself considered a living thing. Therefore, the lapel flag pin being a replica, should be worn on the left lapel near the heart.



I couldn't find the correct reference, but this as close as it gets.
Military, fireman, and policemen are all concidered patriotic oranizations, thus a military style funeral.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:15:54 AM EST
I take exception to all the statements about how cops "die to protect us" ,"died so we wouldn't have to". Cops uphold the law, they are not our bodyguards. I will never call 911 expecting a cop to come "save me". Remember Columbine?
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:16:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:32:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By Leonidas:
I take exception to all the statements about how cops "die to protect us" ,"died so we wouldn't have to". Cops uphold the law, they are not our bodyguards. I will never call 911 expecting a cop to come "save me". Remember Columbine?




Yeah yeah, whatever. Newsflash here buddy. You were not at Columbine. Neither was this officer, or for that matter anyone else in this thread. There is no connection except in your sweaty little brain. Maybe it's time you went back to role playing games where you can pretend to be better than you are? Meanwhile try not to scream like a girl into the phone. the 911 operators really hate that.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:34:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By shotar:
Last LOD death I attended the train was about 4 miles long and included most agencies in this state, a few from Surrounding states and the feds. This is the normal and customary practice. Having arranged these things all too frequently in the past, I can tell you that it is always up to the family to decide how much or little they want the department to do.


How many families choose the simple, 'going to meet your Maker' approach?

About 'None'?

I've even attended a funeral in Shreveport for a Shreveport Policeman who died in a single car accident with a woman NOT his wife in the car with him. About 3:00 AM in another Parish.

The cuckolded wife apparently decided for the 'military-style' over the less ostentatious private ceremony!

Now that was ONE brave lady!

Eric The(Perplexed)Hun


So. you are slamming widows now? Eric, I expected more class from you.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:40:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:43:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 6:55:39 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:09:21 AM EST
GREAT WORDS AND THOUGHTS ERIC. chicago does it like a police funneral, usually bagpipes not quite military not quite "civilian". i think its a good compromise.

a lot of cops seem to think of their jobs as militaristic and those are the ones that need to learn they are not military, and that military type funnerals should be reserved for military



geesh whats next libraians wanting military funnerals, after all they are public servants

btw, who has the legal authoruty to order the america flag to be flown at half mast? i know its a custom to do it when cops die, but is it "legal"?

i thought only the president has that power, but i could be wrong
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:19:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:23:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 7:28:13 AM EST by mac130]

Originally Posted By tequilabob:
GREAT WORDS AND THOUGHTS ERIC. chicago does it like a police funneral, usually bagpipes not quite military not quite "civilian". i think its a good compromise.

a lot of cops seem to think of their jobs as militaristic and those are the ones that need to learn they are not military, and that military type funnerals should be reserved for military



geesh whats next libraians wanting military funnerals, after all they are public servants

btw, who has the legal authoruty to order the america flag to be flown at half mast? i know its a custom to do it when cops die, but is it "legal"?

i thought only the president has that power, but i could be wrong



The flag, when flown at half-staff, should be first hoisted to the peak for an instant and then lowered to the half-staff position. The flag should be again raised to the peak before it is lowered for the day. On Memorial Day the flag should be displayed at half-staff until noon only, then raised to the top of the staff. By order of the President, the flag shall be flown at half-staff upon the death of principal figures of the United States Government and the Governor of a State, territory, or possession, as a mark of respect to their memory. In the event of the death of other officials or foreign dignitaries, the flag is to be displayed at half-staff according to Presidential instructions or orders, or in accordance with recognized customs or practices not inconsistent with law. In the event of the death of a present or former official of the government of any State, territory, or possession of the United States, the Governor of that State, territory, or possession may proclaim that the National flag shall be flown at half-staff. The flag shall be flown at half-staff 30 days from the death of the President or a former President; 10 days from the day of death of the Vice President, the Chief Justice or a retired Chief Justice of the United States, or the Speaker of the House of Representatives; from the day of death until interment of an Associate Justice of the Supreme Court, a Secretary of an executive or military department, a former Vice President, or the Governor of a State, territory, or possession; and on the day of death and the following day for a Member of Congress. The flag shall be flown at half-staff on Peace Officers Memorial Day, unless that day is also Armed Forces Day.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:54:15 AM EST
GO ERIC!!!!

Link Posted: 8/24/2004 7:58:24 AM EST
Well, it seems we've reached a new low around here. Arfcommers now think that they have the perogative to critique how families bury their dead.

It's not your call guys.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:14:03 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:14:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Johninaustin:
Well, it seems we've reached a new low around here. Arfcommers now think that they have the perogative to critique how families bury their dead.

It's not your call guys.



Imagine if every person that died literally tied up traffic for hours. How many people die per day in a major city?

It's nice to say that the family got the funeral how they wanted, but it wouldn't quite be a pragmatic approach if everyone did it (which it seems everyone should be able to be, because we do not have different classes of citizens, do we?).
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:17:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:19:16 AM EST
Not going to bother. This whole thread is pretty disgusting.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:20:20 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:22:35 AM EST
I really think it just isn't up to us.

However, I want to know exactly what characteristics or qualities would make it military?

If you are talking about a long procession, many funerals have that.

If you are talking a gun salute, well police officers (at least in this country) use guns in the line of duty.

If you are talking about the flag, well I feel that police officers oath is just as strong (or weak) as anyone who might join the military.

I'm not sure what you are taking offense to.

I think it is just a way of paying respect to someone who serves the community (no matter how much or how little they actually did).

I don't see it as separating us and them in this respect. However, there is a certain amount of difference between leo and civvies. They theortically have duties above what the normal civilian does and in that they need to have certain extra rights (can speed when necessary, etc. ) Of course I don't think they have any more 2nd amendment rights than the rest of us, but I know that in general, they do a more dangerous job than me and usually don't get much respect for it.

just my opinion.
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:22:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/24/2004 8:23:37 AM EST by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:25:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:25:35 AM EST
Link Posted: 8/24/2004 8:29:27 AM EST
I also would like to know what exactly you consider a "military style" funeral. We have a POLICE style funeral for Officers. We have different layouts depending on the status of the Officer. ie: LOD deaths are different than others.

Your question about who pays for the overtime: I can only answer for my area, NO overtime is paid for these funerals. everyone there is on their own time unless they are working their normal duty day.....I'm sure the fuel expended for a funeral procession across town is enormous
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