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Posted: 10/26/2004 11:26:09 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:29:08 AM EST
I'm not surprised. I knew Waco wasn't the first time the thought has crossed the FEDGOV's mind.

Anyone still think the military wouldn't engage American citizens if commanded to do so?

HS1
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:35:21 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:45:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 11:45:49 AM EST by PAEBR332]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
I really wonder where something like this would have gone. Could the govenor have commanded the National guard to oppose the Fed forces?No. Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution places sole control of the state militias (when called into federal service) in the hands of the President. Would the public have risen up? who knows Could this have kicked off a second civil war? Highly doubtful, but possible.

Neat things to ponder. The weaponry and training of the US army at the time would not have been as hard to deal with as today.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:48:13 AM EST
Okay....I'll play devil's advocate. Were there not various groups in AL who sought to deny minorities of their Civil Rights and could have turned violent in many instances to accomplish this goal? And if that were true and the local authorities could not contain them, is it wrong for the government to intercede?
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:49:01 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 11:49:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
I really wonder where something like this would have gone. Could the govenor have commanded the National guard to oppose the Fed forces?


IIRC, a governor opposed activation of "his" state's National Guard at some point during Vietnam. The Supreme Court ended up deciding that the President could activate the guard without the governor's permission.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:02:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
I really wonder where something like this would have gone. Could the govenor have commanded the National guard to oppose the Fed forces?No. Article II, Section 2 of the Constitution places sole control of the state militias (when called into federal service) in the hands of the President. Would the public have risen up? who knows Could this have kicked off a second civil war? Highly doubtful, but possible.

Neat things to ponder. The weaponry and training of the US army at the time would not have been as hard to deal with as today.




During those times i have to wonder if the Guard units here would have followed the orders of the fed government. Those were VERY different times in the south.



Wallace would have used the State Troopers.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:05:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:07:27 PM EST
Bonus March


Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
I'm not surprised. I knew Waco wasn't the first time the thought has crossed the FEDGOV's mind.

Anyone still think the military wouldn't engage American citizens if commanded to do so?

HS1

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:10:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
i think wallace would have mobilised the cub scouts if he needed to...



Of course, our Cub Scouts are better armed than some states' NGs...



Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:13:08 PM EST
Well, Alabama invaded Tennessee this past weekend, but the Vols kicked their butts.



Go Vols!!!!!!!!

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:16:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By sharky30:
Bonus March


Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
I'm not surprised. I knew Waco wasn't the first time the thought has crossed the FEDGOV's mind.

Anyone still think the military wouldn't engage American citizens if commanded to do so?

HS1




The Bonus March is actually the Bogus March. It was spearheaded by communists, and was more an insurrection than a legitimate Constitutional protest.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:19:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 4:47:17 AM EST by HardShell]
off-topic footbal stuff - removed with my apologies
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:20:51 PM EST
I thought the Posse Comitatus Act prevented the use of US troops against US civilians. Only National Guard under the command of a state governor could intervene in such rioting. BUT THEN WHO SAID THE US GOVERNMENT OBEYS THE CONSTITUTION OR THEIR OWN LAWS FOR THAT MATTER! NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BATTLE FOR STATES RIGHTS IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE STATES!
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 12:21:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Yeah - you did okay against one of the Alabama teams, I guess...

... but, then again...

WAR EAGLE!




I think Auburn could actually defeat the Iraqi terrorists.

We'll meet again in the SEC championship. If UT doesn't win, I'll pull for any SEC team (other than Florida)



Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:44:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Well, Alabama invaded Tennessee this past weekend, but the Vols kicked their butts.



Go Vols!!!!!!!!

graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tenn/graphics/tenn-masthead-t-new.gif

It was a thrilling victory for UT to barely beat a 3rd string QB and 2nd string RB on a scholarship depleted team.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:45:48 PM EST

Originally Posted By LTVN68:
I thought the Posse Comitatus Act prevented the use of US troops against US civilians. Only National Guard under the command of a state governor could intervene in such rioting. BUT THEN WHO SAID THE US GOVERNMENT OBEYS THE CONSTITUTION OR THEIR OWN LAWS FOR THAT MATTER! NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BATTLE FOR STATES RIGHTS IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE STATES!



Federal troops are expressly exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act when called to suppress domestic violence. The President is also authorized to waive the Act during a state of emergency.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:48:39 PM EST

Originally Posted By sharky30:
Bonus March


Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
I'm not surprised. I knew Waco wasn't the first time the thought has crossed the FEDGOV's mind.

Anyone still think the military wouldn't engage American citizens if commanded to do so?

HS1






May they rest in peace.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:48:54 PM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
I really wonder where something like this would have gone. Could the govenor have commanded the National guard to oppose the Fed forces? Would the public have risen up? Could this have kicked off a second civil war?

Neat things to ponder. The weaponry and training of the US army at the time would not have been as hard to deal with as today.



Undertakers woulda been working three shifts.

SG
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:49:59 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Well, Alabama invaded Tennessee this past weekend, but the Vols kicked their butts.



Go Vols!!!!!!!!

graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tenn/graphics/tenn-masthead-t-new.gif



Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:51:18 PM EST

Originally Posted By Avtomat:

Originally Posted By garandman:
Well, Alabama invaded Tennessee this past weekend, but the Vols kicked their butts.



Go Vols!!!!!!!!

graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tenn/graphics/tenn-masthead-t-new.gif

It was a thrilling victory for UT to barely beat a 3rd string QB and 2nd string RB on a scholarship depleted team.



Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:56:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 6:04:10 PM EST by ScaryGuy]

Originally Posted By garandman:
Well, Alabama invaded Tennessee this past weekend, but the Vols kicked their butts.



Go Vols!!!!!!!!

graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tenn/graphics/tenn-masthead-t-new.gif



Be thankful we had a third stringer at QB, and true freshmen on the line to miss blocks. We lost the first and last 45 seconds of the goddamn game, which unfortunately was enough to give it to the Viles. Depleted numbers, a bunch of true freshmen, a third string QB and my boys still acquitted themselves nicely in the Land that Darwin Forgot, in front of 100,000 drooling (related) morons in orange. Bunch of kids with bigs hearts and not as much talent. Sad, but true.

All that, and I'd still take our program in the shape it's in over anything tainted with shitstain Phil Fulmer. The Viles and that bag of shit truly deserve each other.

Kudos on your win, now get back to stump breakin' the sheep...the boys in orange need dates this weekend.

SG

Sorry for the thread Hijack, Mike...I promise I'll ignore them from now on. The fuckers are worse than Democrats.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 6:01:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 6:03:49 PM EST by Sin_Bin]
It sounds as if it would've played favorably into Alabama's field. The Fed troops were going to enter without loaded weapons and scabbards on their bayonets. The Alabama Guard wouldn't have responded with the same level of force - they would've been locked and loaded. It would've been a bloody massacre of Federal troops.

An interesting find to say the least, Mike. I do believe it would've caused a National stir. Like you said, it was very different during the early 60s - many patriots from the WWII and Korean wars were still young enough to participate with combat experience against the "cherry" fed soldiers.

My gut reaction to this scenario as stated, Alabama would've kicked some serious ass.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 6:10:06 PM EST
We have plans for more things than anybody needs to know.

Often, it is just done as an academic exercise, but I sometimes wonder how the tinfoil hat crowd would react if the wrong thing got out.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 6:12:08 PM EST
A buddy of mine who was in the 82 Airborne before I was born swears they jumped into Mississippi during the riots at Oxford and set up roadblocks. He further claims the rest of the 82nd landed at the Jackson, MS airport in cargo planes with all their shit and at that time the Pres called the governor of Miss and told him if he couldn't handle things the 82nd would. This guy is credible.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 6:19:38 PM EST
I don't believe the Al Guard would have taken orders from Kennedy to bear arms against their neighbors.

Had the feds deployed armed troops as invaders, there would have been a confrontation. Wash knew this, thus the mention of arty being forward positioned.

The arty wasn't for the civies, it was sent to answer the Al Guard.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 6:27:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Rustygun:
A buddy of mine who was in the 82 Airborne before I was born swears they jumped into Mississippi during the riots at Oxford and set up roadblocks. He further claims the rest of the 82nd landed at the Jackson, MS airport in cargo planes with all their shit and at that time the Pres called the governor of Miss and told him if he couldn't handle things the 82nd would. This guy is credible.



Not surprising. The 82nd Airborne participated in controlling the Detroit race riots.

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:12:24 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:29:52 AM EST
This is thread is bullshit. In 1957, 327th IN (my Brigade ) deployed to Arkansas under president Eisenhower to allow black students to enter school after Brown vs. Board of Education; which made segregation illegal. This action was in response to Governor Orval Faubus calling out the AR National Guard to BLOCK students from entering school in little rock.

So 1,000 101st troops went in, and there was no resistance. To say that the NG would have fought and "beat the Feds" is a load of stupid bullshit. First, the National Guard soldiers would be placed under federal control, HEY there's a thought! National Guard, when it boils down to it are really FEDERAL TROOPS maintained partially by the state. They sure as fuck would not have fought their own fellow soldiers, and had they, they would have been beat badly by superior numbers, training, and resources. But the point is moot.

And the reason they were mobilized is to deal with a bunch of racist fucks. Just like in the Civil War, the so called "states' rights" was really the "states' rights to keep slaves." Don't forget, the Confederate States issued a proclamation declaring that they would put any black soldier (American soldier) back into slavery if captured. Any black American soldier wearing an American uniform would be executed. Any white officers leading black soldiers would be executed.

So, if you want to be racist and ignore federal law preventing discrimination, AND then try to force a confrontation with American soldiers, you probably should have your ass kicked.

BTW, these two situations have nothing in common with Waco.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:35:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 7:37:41 AM EST by garandman]
Avtomat, Jazba, ScaryGuy -

I think you guys are what they call SORE LOSERS. Woulda, coulda, shouda. Let's not compare experience of QB's that MIGHT have played, or injured players that didn't play. BOTH sides could make a good case. You played your best avaialbe as did we.

We won. Period. Excuses are for losers.



ScaryGuy -

In addition, you are a crass, mean individual. You shame the fine state of Alabama.



Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:38:30 AM EST

Originally Posted By rifleman2000:
This is thread is bullshit. In 1957, 327th IN (my Brigade ) deployed to Arkansas under president Eisenhower to allow black students to enter school after Brown vs. Board of Education; which made segregation illegal. This action was in response to Governor Orval Faubus calling out the AR National Guard to BLOCK students from entering school in little rock.

So 1,000 101st troops went in, and there was no resistance. To say that the NG would have fought and "beat the Feds" is a load of stupid bullshit. First, the National Guard soldiers would be placed under federal control, HEY there's a thought! National Guard, when it boils down to it are really FEDERAL TROOPS maintained partially by the state. They sure as fuck would not have fought their own fellow soldiers, and had they, they would have been beat badly by superior numbers, training, and resources. But the point is moot.

And the reason they were mobilized is to deal with a bunch of racist fucks. Just like in the Civil War, the so called "states' rights" was really the "states' rights to keep slaves." Don't forget, the Confederate States issued a proclamation declaring that they would put any black soldier (American soldier) back into slavery if captured. Any black American soldier wearing an American uniform would be executed. Any white officers leading black soldiers would be executed.

So, if you want to be racist and ignore federal law preventing discrimination, AND then try to force a confrontation with American soldiers, you probably should have your ass kicked.

BTW, these two situations have nothing in common with Waco.



Not to mention we will probably have to do it again, to force places like California, New York, New Jersey, and Illinois to obey the Constitution.

They are already behaving EXACTLY like the Jim Crow states did during their final years in the early 60's, with there passing more and more extreme legislation liberal legislation.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:48:35 AM EST
So he was worried more about getting them out eh?

Roadblocks, quelling riots and protecting civil rights actions are one thing.

Occupying is quite another.

If that little buck toothed shithead had tried to occupy Alabama or most other states outside of New England, he'd have found out what guerilla war was really all about.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:48:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Well, Alabama invaded Tennessee this past weekend, but the Vols kicked their butts.



Go Vols!!!!!!!!

graphics.fansonly.com/schools/tenn/graphics/tenn-masthead-t-new.gif





GO BLAZERS
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:51:43 AM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:
Avtomat, Jazba, ScaryGuy -

I think you guys are what they call SORE LOSERS. Woulda, coulda, shouda. Let's not compare experience of QB's that MIGHT have played, or injured players that didn't play. BOTH sides could make a good case. You played your best avaialbe as did we.

We won. Period. Excuses are for losers.

ScaryGuy -

In addition, you are a crass, mean individual. You shame the fine state of Alabama
.




Link Posted: 10/27/2004 7:53:32 AM EST
very interesting, and scary.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:04:05 AM EST
Eh, if a state refuses to follow the Constitution you do what you have to.

The oath says "foreign and domestic" for a reason.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 8:21:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/28/2004 4:48:28 AM EST by HardShell]
off-topic footbal stuff - removed with my apologies
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:36:33 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:48:11 AM EST

Originally Posted By LTVN68:
I thought the Posse Comitatus Act prevented the use of US troops against US civilians. Only National Guard under the command of a state governor could intervene in such rioting. BUT THEN WHO SAID THE US GOVERNMENT OBEYS THE CONSTITUTION OR THEIR OWN LAWS FOR THAT MATTER! NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BATTLE FOR STATES RIGHTS IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE STATES!



When a law is unconstitutional, it just MAY be ignored

Any law limiting the power of Commander in Chief is unconstitutional, as Congress is not granted such power...

Posse Comitatus is bullshit, and will be overthrown in a second if such action is ever needed...
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:50:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
this is NOT a football thread.

To say the AL natl guard would have followed FEDERAL orders in those days shows a COMPLETE lack of understanding of events during those days.

i think there would have been a VERY serious mutiny within the al natl guard. Would they have fired, i don't know. I do think Wallace would have pushed the button if provoked to that point. I also think the first fed troops in would have found a serious force confronting them.

Say what you will about Wallace but he was no pussy. He enjoyed antagonising the fed gov and i do think he would have issued the orders.

mike



I agree with Mike in a sense about Gov. Wallace.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:53:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
this is NOT a football thread.


mike




Sorry, dude {blush}

It was my bassackwards way of bumping yer thread.

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 11:54:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By LTVN68:
I thought the Posse Comitatus Act prevented the use of US troops against US civilians. Only National Guard under the command of a state governor could intervene in such rioting. BUT THEN WHO SAID THE US GOVERNMENT OBEYS THE CONSTITUTION OR THEIR OWN LAWS FOR THAT MATTER! NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BATTLE FOR STATES RIGHTS IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE STATES!



Federal troops are expressly exempt from the Posse Comitatus Act when called to suppress domestic violence. The President is also authorized to waive the Act during a state of emergency.



This is true. Here is another one for your tin foilers. One of the Army's infantry units trains for riot suppression and crowd control in the Nation's Capital. Don your AFDB and return to the shelter.

As for the actual deployment of troops to AL, I'd have to agree with its intent. Sometimes the greater good requires a strong hand. If you think that racism and separatism are good things and should still be around, then you're out of your freaking mind. Wallace was a madman and ranks right up there with David Duke on the racism scale. Both are domestic terrorists in my mind and should be(or should've been) dealt with just like the oath states.....against all enemies both foreign and domestic.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:00:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By Dave_A:

Originally Posted By LTVN68:
I thought the Posse Comitatus Act prevented the use of US troops against US civilians. Only National Guard under the command of a state governor could intervene in such rioting. BUT THEN WHO SAID THE US GOVERNMENT OBEYS THE CONSTITUTION OR THEIR OWN LAWS FOR THAT MATTER! NOW DO YOU UNDERSTAND THE BATTLE FOR STATES RIGHTS IN THE WAR BETWEEN THE STATES!



When a law is unconstitutional, it just MAY be ignored

Any law limiting the power of Commander in Chief is unconstitutional, as Congress is not granted such power...

Posse Comitatus is bullshit, and will be overthrown in a second if such action is ever needed...



There have been at least 6 SCOTUS decisions upholding the Consitutionality of the Posse Comitatus Act.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:04:56 PM EST
I think some people are missing the point. This isn't about whether it was justified - it's about what would have happened.

Empty weapon carrying federal troops facing pissed off Alabama boys armed to the teeth?

That's a federal spanking in the making. And what the hell could the fed troops do if fired upon anyway? Point there rifles and yell "BANG" really loud?

However, the government's reaction following the slaughter of federal soldiers, would've been severe.

How would the rest of the South react after Alabama killed off the U.S. troops?

Support AL or .gov?

Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:11:57 PM EST

General Lee, after being called upon to lead the U.S. Union forces, determined that he was going to fight for his motherland - Virginia.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 12:13:45 PM EST

Originally Posted By garandman:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
this is NOT a football thread.

mike



Sorry, dude {blush}

It was my bassackwards way of bumping yer thread.




Ditto, man. Sorry for the hijack! Couldn't resist...
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 1:25:04 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/27/2004 1:26:30 PM EST by The_Beer_Slayer]
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:40:05 PM EST
Some of you boys need to go back to school and learn what the War Between the States was really about (hint, it won't slavery).. Reading and believing revisionist history doesn't change what really happened.

Go find some local books written by small town authors who lived through the invasion of federal troops. The MSM lied then to the people just like they are today.

Feelings ran hard in the south, and Gov. Wallace was not a madman. He truly represented the beliefs of a majority of his constituents (ever herd of a democratic form of government?). There was a bunch of stuff going on in the 60's that is conveniently forgotten now. Like some federal attornies, marshals, etc ., were run out of Al. at gunpoint. Others disappeared.

I am not saying any of this is right, but it happened. And if the feds had decided to invade Alabama in the 60s, they just may have been facing some south Ga and Miss, boys also. It wouldn't have been a cakewalk for the feds.

Kennedy didn't exactly have a stellar record when it came to deploying troops. The Bay of Pigs fiasco really showed what stuff that Mass boy was made of.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:50:51 PM EST
Boy, I wonder if any of you realize that...

About 90% of the modern infantry is white. Not a racist statement, but a true one. Though I know some stellar black infantrymen, most black soldiers are in the rear with the gear.

A lot of those white boys are country boys. Most common hobbies among infantrymen are hunting, dipping, shooting, drinking, and getting laid. Though not in that order.

Most National Guard soldiers of the 1960s were people trying to get out of Vietnam.

And when soldiers go into a hostile environment, with unloaded weapons, ammo is always close by.

If any of you think the good old boys had a chance, you are sadly mistaken. Training, numbers, leadership, intelligence (the military kind), superior weaponry, and more fire power would have made any resistance a joke, with the exception of ORGANIZED guerilla warfare. There were no organized guerilla cells, and it would have taken a long time to organize them and they still would have lost.
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 2:57:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By sharky30:
Bonus March


Originally Posted By HighStrung1:
I'm not surprised. I knew Waco wasn't the first time the thought has crossed the FEDGOV's mind.

Anyone still think the military wouldn't engage American citizens if commanded to do so?

HS1




And not only were they citizens, they were former enlisted men.

Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas...
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