[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Mensa (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 8/3/2004 6:29:33 AM EDT
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I posted a question the other day about I.Q. levels and got a lot of responses, thanks to all who responded. Some of you mentioned being in Mensa(which is Spanish means stupid female). I picture a group of leftwing pseudo-intellectuals sitting around trying to impress each other with archane(sp?) factoids and drinking capacino. |
yeah except they can spell 
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Different parts of the country, even different cities, have wide differences in the local group demographics. I've known lots of 2nd amendment Mensans. Just makes sense. It is the pseudo-intellectuals you need to worry about, not Mensans. Most Mensans are fairly well above the flawed logic used by gun grabbers, and would be pro-2nd even if only out of disdain for the BS logic. |
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Every one of my colleagues could easily qualify for Mensa, and I've never ever heard of any of them having the slightest interest in it. I get the impression that many of the people who join Mensa are people who maybe don't have too much going on in their lives (one way or another) and want to be in a club to celebrate how "smart" they are instead of actually doing something worthwhile with those smarts. |
The Houston, TX chapter is full of a bunch of cokeheads and SCA members, or at least that's the impression I got from the ones who kept pestering me to join. They really wanted me to join. My last officially tested IQ score was 148. But honestly, I consider IQ scores to be nothing more than an indicator of how well someone recognizes patterns. There are too many people with high IQ's who cannot function as human beings. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
+1 also: mensa - men·sa - n. Ecclesiastical The top surface of an altar. (that's the english definition) 
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I am suspected of having a Mensa level IQ, and I believe it. (They thought I was developmentally challenged in school and ran me through a battery of tests. Turns out I was just bored and hated homework, but I had learned quite a bit...) Remember how Einstein was a genius, but completely unable to do the simplest task like remember to use the right soap for the right thing? Well the other day I put shaving cream on my toothbrush and almost shaved with the toothpaste. Maybe I am developmentally challenged... |
There's more than one kind of soap???  |
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I'm a member both of Arfcom and Mensa. I'll be happy to answer any relevant questions about the latter. For those of you giving the old "I'm smart enough, but don't want to go through the hassle" or the "They're just a bunch of pimply nerds doing math puzzles and jerking off" lines, I must call BULLSHIT. If you think you're smart enough, put your money where your mouth is and get tested, or STFU. What you're saying is something like "I coulda been in Special Forces if..." but you didn't, for whatever reason, so you'll never know and you sure have no say about those who did. You wouldn't the SpecOps people on this forum, would you? So please lay off the Mensans, who do have a demonstrable attribute - whatever its merit - and made the effort to take an IQ test. FWIW, Mensa is a group of people who score in the top 2% for I.Q. While you'd expect Mensans would be "well above the flawed logic used by gun grabbers," in truth this is not necessarily so. A top-2% IQ is the ONLY requirement for membership; education or possession of common sense are not, perhaps unfortunately, a factor. So, Mensa winds up with a pretty broad cross-section of society. While logic might be used more effectively by Mensans, their assumptions are as often based on emotion as on any rational basis and they can be just as looney as anybody in the other 98% of the population. Mensans can be screaming liberals, communists, crystal rubbing Wiccans, PETA activists, Born-Again Christians, Earth-Firsters, Libertarians, Reagan conservatives, soldiers, janitors and/or anything else you can think of. They're possibly more articulate, can figure the tip in their head and yes, generally are good at spelling, but socially, they're pretty much just regular folks. I tend to think of IQ as sort of a CPU rating for the human brain. While a person with high IQ might have more innate processing power, this does not make up for bad software. For myself, I have been an IT professional, served as an officer in the USAF and currently own a liquor store. I'm an NRA Life Member, a Battallion Commander in the Tennessee State Guard and a pilot in the Civil Air Patrol. Though I'm neither a brain surgeon nor a rocket scientist, I will attend law school this fall at the age of 45. Am I a typical Mensan? Don't know that there is any such thing, but I'll tell you this: My IQ was tested at 175+ though that was a long time ago. I'm not a liberal, have no pimples, never got beat up in high school (got laid, though) and I smoke cigars, not cigarettes (much less French clove ones). I don't even own a black sweater, though I do have a whole closetfull of black rifles. For those of you who are up to taking the test for membership or just curious, visit the Mensa website at Mensa.org/ for the overall group - American Mensa is, not surprisingly, at Americanmensa.com/. OH, one more thing: Mensa was founded in the 1940s by a group of Englishmen. Mensa is Latin for "Table" and has nothing to do with Hispanic females of whatever intelligence. |
Geez, you'd think a brainiac (an IT professional, no less!) could at least get the board code right...  The real link is HERE (really!) |
That's my take on it also. (except for the "every one of my colleagues could easily qualify" part. |
This is what my experience was. They put me through a whole battery of tests when I was a kid thinking I was challenged. The results of the tests showed me in the top 1 % of scores, with the exception of being in the bottom 40% when it came to spelling. (I never understood the value of spelling as a kid. So long as they knew what I meant to say, everything was fine, right?) I don't remember whether I took a formal IQ test or not, but I think I did. I remember seeing "definate genius" on a report somewhere. I do know for sure that I got moved out of the stupid kids group into the gifted and talented group. Despite all of that, I never did become a big fan of math. When I had a good teacher, I understood the topic and got A's. In college I had the worst mathematics teacher ever (I am not here to teach you, that's what the book is for. He literally said that. I dropped that class and never looked back...) Chemistry, on the other hand, I slept through and made A's. But none of the math ever became a core part of my knowledge. The things I read DID become a core part of my knowledge. Having a high IQ doesn't mean you are better, or more likely to be successful than anyone else. There are many other deciding factors that go into that. All it does mean is that someone with a higher IQ will, in general, understand and learn things faster than other people. I am usually one of the quickest learners of any group. It also means that you will be able to understand the inherent logic of various things, but not to perfection. A friend went back to college and took a class on the physics of light and sound. He brought me his homework utterly baffled by it. I read 2 pages of his book and did the homework. The prof graded it and I got half the answers right, not having picked up a math book in years and not remembering any of my calculus. I had one of the high scores on that assignment in the class, as most people miserably failed it. I certainly didn't have more understanding than the guy teaching the class, (MS in Physics) but I certainly have the ability to grasp the material should I put the time and effort into learning it. The IQ scale becomes critical on the high and low ends. People on the very low end of the scale have trouble performing complex tasks and fitting in with society. People on the very high end have problems with simple tasks and fitting in with other people. I have discovered that communication with others is often a problem, and that I think in a vastly different way than most other people I have met. (Not just belief systems, but my process of thought is much different...) There are approximately 6 billion people on the planet. If one is in the top 2% of intellects world wide, then that means that they are in company with some 60,000,000 people, hardly an exclusive club. The testing itself is biased. Figure that there are great numbers of people who cannot pass any test because of lack of education and language barriers, and the pool of people who are even capable of taking the test in the first place shrinks. So we see that while someone is not necessarily capable of scoring highly on the IQ test, they may still posess a powerful intellect, but for some reason or another they can't be accurately measured. If one were to measure me today I would not score as well as I did when I was a kid, simply because in the time that has passed between now and when I was in 7th grade, I have developed math freeze. Because of a few bad teachers, I became convinced that I was no good at math. This is utterly not true, as my mind is more than capable of understanding very complex mathematical concepts, but that fear locks my brain up whenever I am being judged on my mathematical ability. Now frame it in the context of a Chemistry problem or a physics problem, and suddenly I can do the work. It makes no sense at all, but that's what it is like inside my brain. Joining Mensa is most likely something I can do, but it has just never appealed to me. Course there are all those teachers who told me I was dumb.... I guess I should join up and show them how insightful they were. |
A budding young Mensa member: Now we KNOW they have sex:  (Just kidding around! I just know I'm going to burn in hell for this...  ) |
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Ok, to make up for those pics, here's a link to a brief discussion of some of the most current ideas about intelligence. Basically, it says that there are "multiple intelligences", not just the one we commonly think of (intellectual achievement). Multiple Intelligence Oh, and more geek pics: 
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Let me further add that I subscribe to the belief that there are different kinds of genius out there. A Mensa-level IQ is one type of ability. But I have met people that have unearthly abilities at other things that don't seem obvious. One man I know wouldn't compete in an IQ brag off, but yet he is able to operate in harmony with machines and learn to fix them like nobody's buisness. I marvel at how good he is inside his factory. I have met people with no ability in math (like myself) yet who can memorize about anything they read. Intelligence is hard to cram into neat little categories like the haves and the have-nots. There are many different types of aptitude out there. The key to life is find yours and take full advantage of it. |
Well thanks for going and demonstrating my point about multiple intelligences before I made it.... |
and did you read the "discussion"?
I can think of few things more damning than an endorsement by US Public schools. Go out for lunch today or go shopping and then come back and tell us the products of the current US Educational system are better than those of 40 or 50 years ago. I had some kid at a drive-through try to tell me that the (pricing) sign posted right in front of her was wrong because the register said something different (get a manager, who also got it wrong, btw) It's horseshit like "emotional intelligence" that you hear on Oprah (that the NEA just has an orgasm over) and rejection of raw intelligence (IQ tests) in favour of the dumbing down of schools to the lowest common denominator that is wrecking this country's future. Any "research" that supports a PC notion is heartily embraced by the NEA, whether it has any basis in fact or not. Are some people better thinkers in different aspects than others? Certainly. That however does not invalidate the concept nor testing of raw intelligence. People don't like IQ scores because they're not PC or they are intimidated by them. Just like some people don't like bodybuilders because they can bench 350 pounds or rock stars cause they get laid 25 times a day. Life is tough. Get over it.
Yes, if you go to an RG (regional gathering, as mensa meetings are called), there will be some strange agents there. Just like at the gun show, bowling alley or in the stands at your local football game. There will also be a majority of people who are everyday folk, from all walks of life, as is the case with mensa (folks who just happen to test particularly well, nothing more, nothing less). It's a voluntary organization, and anyone who is "elitist" about it is usually ostracized, because as smart as they think they are, there is always someone smarter. Big egos are quickly dispatched, and for the most part it's about open conversation. The smartest people I know are the ones who realize (& accept) that they don't know everything. |
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Just poking a little fun, and throwing in food for thought. I am certainly not impressed with many of the edu-speak geeks, though I do believe in the idea of multiple intelligences. A brilliant idea, really, but under-developed at this time. There's lots of examples of this in real life. And as you point out, IQ isn't everything. All traditional IQ tests load heavily on verbal and math skills, and are biased strongly towards native English speakers. Doesn't mean that everybody else is stupid, just that they will not test as well. Non-verbal IQ tests are a step in the right direction, certainly. They show that people demonstrate pretty much the same range of ability when you can factor out some of the extraneous contributors to performance, like language skills and background. The modern education establishment falls far short on common sense much of the time, but then again, look at the task they have: to understand how people learn and to improve the technology of providing a good education for people with a vast array of abilities, languages, and backgrounds. |
First off, I've taken at least one IQ test each year from 2nd grade until 8th grade. Second, I considered joining MENSA after being invited by several members of the Houston chapter, and I decided they weren't the type of people I wanted to hang out with. First, they were self professed "self medicators" (a.k.a. cokeheads) and they said everyone else in MENSA just loved to "get fucked up" like they did. After meeting more of them I decided that wasn't far off. Maybe it was just the Houston chapter, but those were my feelings. Remember the Alamo, and God Bless Texas... |
This is the problem that disntinguishes the ACADEMIC use of the words, from the common use of words. When researchers talk about intelligence, it is a specific term, that is clearly defined, so that it can be quantifed and studied. A lot of this "mutiple intelligences" crap is just shit that people make up to sell books or to get tenure, but it's not clear that it's still "intelligence" were talking about for a lot of these things, but rather some aspect of skill and learned ability. Knowledge, skills and abilities (KSAs) are obviously really important for success in life as well (and intelligence is obviously related to the acquisition of KSAs), but they are not exactly the same construct. I agree that intelligence is a multi-faceted construct, but I'm not sure I would go as far as to say there are "mutliple" intelligences. However - I'm jsut as much a layperson as everyone else at this. Intelligence is not something I study, nor do I read the literature of the people that do. But it's always good to be aware of the differences between REAL science and knowledge, and thsoe trying to sell books and neat ideas (to school, companies or consulting businesses). A great example of this is the personality research literature. The Myers-Briggs inventory is used extensively, but from an academic and scientific viewpoint it is complete shit. The woman who developed it just pulled it out of her ass, and then made lots of money selling it to companies - because it SOUNDS good. |
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We had that Myers-Briggs testing done at a couple of companies I worked for ("Thinker, Feeler, Intuitor, Hugger, Cuddler etc. etc.) and all I can say is that after we were done that we were berated for not finding the time to get our work done AND go to the damned M-B sessions, and this by the guy who eventually sold out the company to the competition. Didn't need a "personality inventory" to know that the slimebag was a jackass from day one, but noooooooooo, MBA consultants *assured* management that "this test will help" Arrrrrggggghhhhhh. |
Well, I call BULLSHIT on your BULLSHIT, and here is why:
Based on your own comments, MENSA is NOTHING like the selection and training process to join certain military units. Selection and training - and then not getting kicked out of, requires a huge base of knowledge, skills, ability, refusals to quit, adaptability, and sometimes just pure LUCK. If there was some simple test to give someone, believe me, the military could and would save a LOT of money and headaches. A better comparison for MENSA would be shooting or golfing. As a shooter, I don't have to go to Camp Perry and compete in the President's Match to know if I am competitive for the President's 100 - I can shoot the same course of fire anywhere and know I am NOT good enough. Similarly, any golfer can judge where he stands relative to the folks on the pGA tour based on his scores at the local course. If a shooter COULD smoke the President's 100 course of fire, but never went to the actual match, he would have EVERY right to say "I could but I haven't." In that same vein, a golfer on a local course consistently shooting 20 under par but opting to pursue family life or some other profession over going pro - is clealr qualified to say he could have gone pro. ALL of us have taken planty of standardized tests in our lives. Many of us have consistently scored in the top one percentile in multiple tests fo rmost of our lives. To use DKProfs example of his colleagues, surely a doctorate holding professor teaching at a university has had his intellect tested numerous times. From the SAT, to the ACT, to the GRE, to the GMAT or any of various other tests, professional students KNOW where they stand. Heck, at the doctorate level, I doubt many low IQ people succeed, period. Sure, an actual IQ test is not the same as these - since the IQ test theoretically should have less emphasis on knowledge. Heck though - I smoked the DLAB and that is ALL about patterns - but, IMHO, means SQUAT unless I actually go learn a language. The point is that such people who have advanced themselves through academia have little need or desire to join Mensa. For too many people, membership in Mensa is a way for THEM to say, "I coulda been ..." when they CHOSE to go NOWHERE with their intellect. For those of us who left the academic world gladly after our first degree, but may return someday, many just don't feel the need to join a club to show people how smart we are. We would rather show people how CAPABLE we are, and we can only do that in person. Myself, I am a man of action moreso than of words - MENSA is ALL about being a man of words ONLY. If you can show me where that some of the top people in their respective academic fields are members - or where percentile in the ACT, SAT, GRE, GMAT, DLAB etc. do not show correlation to MENSA IQ test results, then - and only THEN, can you say that 1) MENSA is anyhting but mental masturbation for smart people who feel a need to show they "could have" been more than they became and 2) Those of us with NO interest can't say we could probably be members if we actually gave a shit. Pardon any bad grammar and spelling - I am not smart enought to type this first into word and actually edit it - you get to read my rough draft / stream of consciousness diatribe. - edited because I appear to be too stupid to work the quotes, as well - |
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Geez, people... it's just a social club, not a career. Not too many jobs out there for "Mensa member". Wonder what it pays? Mensa doesn't actively recruit (compared to say, the US Army or the moonies... ), and all the furor gets stirred up by *other people* bitching about it. Wonder why that is? |
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I had an asshole classmate in a restaurant management class and he tried to compare himself to the teacher. One day he went up to the teacher and asked what his IQ was. Went like... asshat "What's your IQ?" teacher "What's yours?" "I asked you first" "Yea, but why would I answer that question, you'll just come up with some higher number to try to act like you proved a point" "I'm smarter than you" Later in the day the teacher went to Mensa's website and printed out the membership application and gave it to the student in front of a bunch of people. He said "I'm already a member" so the teacher asked where his membership card was. He looked stupid for a few seconds then said he left it at home. The teacher said "sure ya did" and threw away the application and said "looks like you don't need this afterall" we broke into hysterics, that classmate was an asshole suffering from severe short-man syndrome. |
I agree with Adam White on calling bullshit on your bullshit. I could EASILY join Mensa if I wanted, as could every one of my colleagues. I don't THINK I'm smart enough, I know I am - I just DON'T CARE about belonging to a club like that. I'm more impressed with membership in the Mile High Club.  And before I get the response that it's just sour grapes, and I couldn't qualify if I wanted to - allow me to be self-aggrandizing for a moment: I took the SAT (without studying or really knowing what the format was) and scored in the 98th percentile. I graduated in the top 1 percent of my undergraduate class (at a top 10 university), finishing my degree in 3 years. I got my doctorate at one of the 3 top graduate schools in my field, and I currently work as a research faculty in a top-10 university. I've published my research - both empirical and theoretical - in the top journals in my field. I'm going to a conference later this week to present two research studies (one a lab study and one a field study). I was also an officer in the Army back in the old country, in case anyone finds that impressive! Despite that, most of my colleagues are WAAAAAAY smarter than me, as is my fiancee (who is going to kill me now, because I'm supposed to be working on revisions on a manuscript we are working on, and not wasting time on ar15.com). I don't think I, or any of them, need to take some IQ test to tell us how smart we are, or feel the NEED to. I've met Mensa members, and without fail they were self-important losers. I'm NOT saying that all mensa members are, or even most - just all of the ones I've ever met. ... and since I'm sounding like an arrogant asshole anyway let me just point out that TOP 2% of I.Q. really doesn't sound very impressive for a club that supposely is all about being really smart. That makes what, FIVE MILLION people in the U.S. alone that qualify for Mensa?? Wow, big deal  . I guess mensa would be impressive, or mean something, if the qualification was something like TOP 0.05% of I.Q. - but then I guess there wouldn't be enough people around for their self-congratulatory circle-jerks.
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Actually, there are several societies with requirements in excess of your "0.05%" criterion: One here, and another, and another and a good half-dozen between the basic mensa level and highest end. Being a professor or possessor of postgraduate degrees does not qualify (nor block) one from membership. I've known many exceptionally bright people who did not attend college, and I would consider them far brighter than many of my college professors (this was less the case at better schools). Likewise, I've known more than a few MBA's who were (and presumably still are) functional illiterates. Oftentimes a degree can be obtained with a wink and a nod (if one's relatives donate generously to the university coffers) Unless one has been to one of the meetings (and guests were always welcome, whether they were members or not never seemed to be a problem) then it's rather pointless to characterize them as anything more than "a meeting to which I have never been" Honestly, this bashing is rather mystifying - was the forum once raided by bandits from a high-IQ society? |
I'm not bashing Mensa per se, I'm jsut reacting to two thing. One is the fact that the Mensa people I've met have been very underwhelming and self-important, and the second is the predictable reaction from Mensa people which is "yeah, well you;re just jealous because you're not as smart as me" I completely agree that being a "professor" is meaningless, because there are about a billion universities out there, and a lot of them are crap. In addition, these days there are plenty of diploma-mills that will give you a "doctorate" as long as you pay them for it. I am in complete agreement with you. That was the ONLY reason I also listed relavent information - like the fact that I work at a research instituion, publish in peer-reviewed research journals, was trained at one of the top universities in the world, etc. etc. Please beleive that the purpose of the detail was not to brag, but to head off reotrts like "well anyone can become a professor" |
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I guess the way I look at it is as a free-association deal - take the one society that is at the 99.999999 or whatever) percentile and has something like a half a dozen members. They did better on a test than I did, and may well be able to contemplate or argue about things that are beyond my grasp. Good for them! I'm not jealous of them, nor would I cast aspersions on their complexion or sexual prowess because they aced a test. Hell, they might have figured out a way to beat the market and be neck-deep in hookers as we speak. Again, good for them. In any group, there will be idiots (some, like the DU will have an inordinate percentage, lol) but that is hardly an indictment of the whole. If you met some mensans who were obnoxious then judge them on their own merits, not the organization (remember, membership is dependent on a test score, nothing else). Many folks don't advertise or flaunt membership, simply because that's not why they are members. Perhaps you were just exposed to the few braggarts? (who are likely treated as jerks by many within) |
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Well, I call BULLSHIT on your calling BULLSHIT on my calling BULLSHIT on your BULLSHIT. I am not saying that Mensa = Green Beret, you're mistaking the argument for the point. Substitute "Athlete" if you want, it's the same thing. Having a high IQ doesn't automatically make you a genius any more than good genes automatically make you a great athlete. Athletic ability - or even the potential for it - tends to be superficially obvious, while exceptional intelligence might not be. A person who knows he could never get away with claiming the former can more easily get away with claiming the latter. Same for the Special Ops comparison, the relevance of which is this: Somebody who is a Ranger or Green Beret will definitely stand out. And if someone got caught faking that on this board, they'd be toast and they know it. But anyone can claim any level of intelligence they want and pretty much get by. And if they prove otherwise later, they can talk about other kinds of intelligence, or invalid testing, because intelligence isn't as well understood or demonstrable as a batting average or a chest full of medals. This is what I was trying to say, without being pedantic, but I was apparently not clear enough so I will put it bluntly: An adult in American society possessing any manners at all does not disparage other people who possess a positive attribute which he does not, or who have done something notable which he has not done himself. The relative merit or magnitude is not important; one should have respect, not disdain, for something positive on the part of another person. While he may or may not in reality be their equal, one should not claim parity without some form of proof other than his own opinion of himself. |
I'm absolutely familiar with being judged by the standards of other's behavior - look at what the damn Dutch have done to me!! I agree that not all are like the ones I met (and I think I said that explictily earlier)I guess the problem that comes up for me every time this topic is raised is that I really don't UNDERSTAND why anyone would want to join. Even if I wanted to socialize with interesting and intelligent people, there are many other social clubs I could find that would accomplish that - without having to join one that all about having a particular score on some test. Ulitmately, I just don't GET IT - and it just seems like it's something that often comes up as bragging. Then again, like loud obnoxious american tourists in Europe - maybe I'm only ever noticing the annoying and unimpressive mensa members, because the interesting and smart ones are not drawing attention to themselves, or acting self-important. Ultimately - I only got belligerent in this thread in RESPONSE to a mensa member pulling the usual whiny "oh yeah, well you're just jealous because you're not as smart as me" reaction to criticism. |
Come on, now. Are you seriously saying that even though a person never went to the actual match, he would have EVERY right to say "I could but I haven't?" By that logic, a person could claim to be an ace figther pilot because he's good at combat flight simulators, or that a virgin could know he's a great lay because he's really good at jerking off? There's a little more to it than that... Being able to perform at a certain level at the local range/golf course does not by any means prove you could do it at Camp Perry or at the Masters. If you went to a course where Arnold Palmer or Lee Trevino had played and duplicated their score, do you really think that would make you their equal? It's one thing to play well for fun, but entirely another to do it for a living. Could you play as well as the pros, day after day, year after year, tour after tour? Could you perform as well competing with the best of the best, before a huge crowd of fans, much less on TV? How about playing for big-time prize money? Could you still play as well under that kind of pressure? Without having done so, would you still claim, face to face with either one of those great professionals, to be their equal? I sure wouldn't, because it wouldn't be true. Whether it's pro golf or an IQ test, unless you have done what someone else has done, you really can't legitimately claim to be their equal a particular endeavor or ability. Sure, you can say "I might be" or "I think I could" but you can't, and shouldn't, say "I am." THAT is my point. |
Well, pardon me for saying so, but you don't agree. If you have in fact scored 98th percentile on the SAT, then you would in fact qualify for Mensa (in the past, anyway, I'm not sure if today's SAT still qualifies). You can therefore say you choose not to join because you have shown that you have the choice TO join. That was entirely my point - a person doesn't have the option of not joining if they don't qualify in the first place, and they shouldn't claim to be something they haven't proven they are. Simple as that, whether we're talking about Mensa, the Mile High Club or the Medal of Honor. |
I guess I misunderstood your point somewhat. Sorry 'bout that. |