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Posted: 10/20/2004 2:55:58 AM EST
It's personal, and for a pro-USA like me is painful.

But, guys, your govt. policy made supply of AR rifles from USA pratically IMPOSSIBLE. And not only the whole rifles, but also spare parts.

Probably at the ATF and the DoD they ignore that in ALL EUROPE, and in the specific Italy, firearm licensing is MANDATORY, and also registration is MANDATORY.

Not registering your just purchased gun means that you are risking up to 6 years imprisonement.

So our govt. in theory, under a request of US govt., is able to know WHO owns a gun and WHERE a gun is owned. Not to talk about re-exportation: for single private people is pratically impossible!

I love to shoot with my Oly, or my friends Colt, but if you BREAK even the tiniest thing, you have turned your american rifle into a heavy and very expensive paperholder, since especially for AR, is nearly impossible to have spare parts.

I want to diffuse sport shooting with AR15 in my country, but at the moment is IMPOSSIBLE.

For the next purchase I am evaluating a lot of firearms (last one is an Underwood US M1 Carbine, but I need also a 357, a sniper rifle... etc. etc...), but I am discarding, even if better or cheaper, ANY american product. I don't want to risk my hard earned money. It is sad to say, because 80% of my guns, up to now, is american made, and I am fully satisfied for their performance and quality.

I am asking to myself, sometimes, IF a general boycott from European USERS (govt. should not even think to be involved...) should induce US firearm industry to tap at the doors of somebody in Washington and suggest to rethink the whole DSP83 thing...

One more thing: if 9-11 was never happened, this situation and DSP83 implementation would never take place. Every day, since then, I curse Usama Bin Laden & Co. for all the damage he made worldwide (including this...) and I wish for him to be buried in a pig skin.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:58:43 AM EST
What reason did ATF give?

There is a war going on, you know, so it seems logical to me that if parts are needed, that foreign sales will be cut first. Granted, this doesn't make me feel very good if it's a capacity issue.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:00:07 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:02:09 AM EST
Paolo, this is most your GOVERNMENT'S fault, and some on the behalf of the U.S. government.

Bushmaster, Colt, Olympic, ect. would all most likely wish to do business with you and the rest of your country. Indeed, gun ownership there sounds almost as bad as Antifreedomstralia.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:03:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 3:03:44 AM EST by Sturmwehr]

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
In your position i would probobly do the same thing. I have to wonder if those parts are restricted for overseaes and if an individual could get them to you.

Anyone know?



TBS: We'd be violating U.S. and Italian law if we did... It's no worse if someone made a F/A weapon with a non-registered sear or just put a 12" barrel on an AR without submitting Form I.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:09:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
In your position i would probobly do the same thing. I have to wonder if those parts are restricted for overseaes and if an individual could get them to you.

Anyone know?

mike



I made a shooting association for shooting exclusively with AR. But, since this situation, number of AR users can't increase, and I had to open shooting matches virtually to ANY assault rifle. I am thinking myself to buy an AK47 to make competitions since if I ruin my Oly during a shooting match I am FUCKED UP.

And it's not only a matter to solve my personal problem, but to force US industry to meditate and US govt. to rethink it's policy. I write for a national gun review in Italy, and I am thinking if I should write an article titled "Why you shouldn't buy american guns" or something like that.

And this, after I promoted and buyed for YEARS US made products!!!
This made me SICK...

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:13:02 AM EST


Have you tried contacting FN? They may be able to help you.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:17:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:
Paolo, this is most your GOVERNMENT'S fault, and some on the behalf of the U.S. government.

Bushmaster, Colt, Olympic, ect. would all most likely wish to do business with you and the rest of your country. Indeed, gun ownership there sounds almost as bad as Antifreedomstralia.



So why they don't do it? In fact is your DSP83 document that is blocking at undetermined time export toward Europe (and other places...).

I agree that is ALSO our govt. fault, lazy bunch of bureocrats, but I'd like to hear from you WHY is MAINLY my govt. fault. Gimme arguments, not words, please.

Gun ownership is still one of the BEST in europe in my country, even if not PERFECT. We can own even original M14 (with FA capabilities removed) while in US you must have an FFL Class III and demilitarization of military guns, for what I know, is not allowed: one a gun is born as "full auto" is always full auto, even with FA selector allowing only semiauto.

I envy one thing, in this matter, of USA: the influence your gun lobby has on US govt. Here they are all prone and when govt. is doing something to infringe RKBA, gun producers don't say a word...
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:18:23 AM EST

Originally Posted By Waldo:

Have you tried contacting FN? They may be able to help you.



They are not going to sell us nothing, since they built only M16 under Colt license. Sorry
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:18:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:19:41 AM EST

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
In your position i would probobly do the same thing. I have to wonder if those parts are restricted for overseaes and if an individual could get them to you.

Anyone know?

mike



I made a shooting association for shooting exclusively with AR. But, since this situation, number of AR users can't increase, and I had to open shooting matches virtually to ANY assault rifle. I am thinking myself to buy an AK47 to make competitions since if I ruin my Oly during a shooting match I am FUCKED UP.

And it's not only a matter to solve my personal problem, but to force US industry to meditate and US govt. to rethink it's policy. I write for a national gun review in Italy, and I am thinking if I should write an article titled "Why you shouldn't buy american guns" or something like that.

And this, after I promoted and buyed for YEARS US made products!!!
This made me SICK...




Damn man, sorry to hear of your situation. Honestly I don't think the .gov, US or Italian really gives a shit, they have bigger things to worry about . Is there a gunshop in your area that stocks the parts you want to keep spares of? If possibe I'd get them now. If not hop on the AK bandwagon and have fun.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:34:22 AM EST

Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB:
can't you get m16 parts out of germany? the neatherlands? finland?

it is not america at fault, paolo. my finnish bud got a bbl. shipped to him last spring.

who are you contacting to get these spare parts?



What I am saying is that is NOT only America fault, Bob, but with their DSP83 document they fucked all of us up.

In Finland they can still receive rifles and parts because (and here is MY govt. fault...) their Ministry of the Interior answered to the US DoD. But ALL the parts the are arriving in Finland CANNOT BE RE-EXPORTED.

At the moment, Norway and Finland are the ONLY COUNTRIES not affected by DSP83 issue.

All the rest are in the same Italy's conditions.

A friend of mine accidentally ruined while cleaning inside the barrel of his Colt AR15. We are seeing how to get a new barrel, but he is thinking to go to Germany and take a Lothar Walther barrel... a half german Colt... very very sad!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:39:15 AM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
What reason did ATF give?

There is a war going on, you know, so it seems logical to me that if parts are needed, that foreign sales will be cut first. Granted, this doesn't make me feel very good if it's a capacity issue.



What BS. "There's a war on!" Hahahahaha. There are no shortages of AR parts out there, so the problem is political.

And why don't you guys believe that it is OUR GOVERNMENT that would do this? With 13,000 L1a1s being sent to the metal cruncher in Australia, and the UN with all its treaties about international firearms trading, exactly what else do you think is going on here? There are many hurdles involved in exporting AR-15/M16 parts, most companies probably just don't want to bother.


Paolo--my advice--find yourself a weapons system that you can get support for in your country and use that exclusively. The newer AK models are seriously decent. How about the Sig line of assault rifles? Can you get a 550 in Italy? Are you limited to non-military calibers?

I feel for you man, but I don't think it will be long before we Americans go the way of the REST OF THE WORLD and become severely limited by all kinds of bs importation rules, registrations, etc.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:53:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By thelibertarian:

Paolo--my advice--find yourself a weapons system that you can get support for in your country and use that exclusively. The newer AK models are seriously decent. How about the Sig line of assault rifles? Can you get a 550 in Italy? Are you limited to non-military calibers?

I feel for you man, but I don't think it will be long before we Americans go the way of the REST OF THE WORLD and become severely limited by all kinds of bs importation rules, registrations, etc.



Really thinking to switch to AK (FEG) or to take an AUG. But I will not GIVE AWAY my AR15 for any reason.

I am writing an article in a gun review to promote import of SIG550 in Italy (very expensive rifle!!!).

We are allowed, for firearms, any caliber, included "military" ones. For pistols, we are NOT allowed only 9 parabellum.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 12:37:40 PM EST

So why they don't do it? In fact is your DSP83 document that is blocking at undetermined time export toward Europe (and other places...).


Your government tried no such lifts of embargos or trade-agreements when they could. That said, they all but handed over your rights. I don't know about you, but if there was a law passed by Italy banning the sale of Ferraris to America (and America did nothing), I would be pissed and I would blame MY government.

Although the United States imposed these laws against you, it doesn't mean that we can regulate how you and your country can do business. If France, Germany, Russia, the U.S., or any country impose regulations on Italy, Italy should disgregard and embargo said country or reason with its leaders... Not just hand over the keys to international trade.


I agree that is ALSO our govt. fault, lazy bunch of bureocrats, but I'd like to hear from you WHY is MAINLY my govt. fault. Gimme arguments, not words, please.


Again, U.S. law does not dictate Italy's rights to commerce. YOU and your government decide that. Your government did not, at any time, oppose this bill. Therefore, they are subject to it.

Don't know about you, but it sounds like a case of "Day late, dollar short" to me.


Gun ownership is still one of the BEST in europe in my country, even if not PERFECT.


I think you'd be quite happy walking into a gun store and coming out with an Armalite AR-180B in a matter of minutes.

That said, your politicans didn't bother to protect your basic rights to bear arms and to allow commerce to commence internationally. Therefore, they are the people that are dampening your rights.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 1:52:22 PM EST
If it's simple parts like the mag release, ejector springs, ejector, etc. you might want to just have them made by a local CNC shop.

Does Italy consider these parts "firearms"? Also, can you manufacture a gun for yourself or do you need special licenses to do that?

Here in the US the lower receiver is the only part considered a firearm, and therefore the only part subject to regulation (domestically).
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 1:56:38 PM EST
Are you SURE this would affect the sale of parts from a private individual in the U.S.

Would it really be considered EXPORT to buy a parts kit on eBay and ask the seller to ship it and put machine parts (no lie) on the customs form.


If there really is no way to get the parts - then that sucks!!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:05:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Are you SURE this would affect the sale of parts from a private individual in the U.S.

Would it really be considered EXPORT to buy a parts kit on eBay and ask the seller to ship it and put machine parts (no lie) on the customs form.


If there really is no way to get the parts - then that sucks!!




IIRC under American Laws and Codes you can get things UNDER $100 shipped to you wo/ having to fill out export paperwork
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:20:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By jblachly:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
Are you SURE this would affect the sale of parts from a private individual in the U.S.

Would it really be considered EXPORT to buy a parts kit on eBay and ask the seller to ship it and put machine parts (no lie) on the customs form.


If there really is no way to get the parts - then that sucks!!




IIRC under American Laws and Codes you can get things UNDER $100 shipped to you wo/ having to fill out export paperwork



I'm sure somebody would be willing to sell him some stuff cheap...
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:29:48 PM EST
Since many AR parts are interchangeable with M-16 parts, especially on the upper, exports of them are controlled.

We have an Arms Export Control Act.

It makes it hard to export gun parts unless you are the CIA.

CRC
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 2:31:50 PM EST
It is also hard to import parts into the US for various guns although that has eased some.


That is why I like the AR. Parts are readily availalble in USA.

Gun laws suck.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:23:44 PM EST
Man this sucks.

I would like to thank you for the years of buying American made products. Unfortunately, politicians have found a way to screw things up for the little guys once again. We're in a similar position here with respect to the SIG 550 series....can't get them imported. You're not the only one having problems with import/export.

I think looking into another weapon system is a good idea. That's what I'd do. Keep the AR in the hopes that the restrictions will be lifted in the future. It sucks, but what can you do.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:30:51 PM EST
Don't you have contacts in Israel?

As a last resort... Don't the Chinese have an AR clone? The Chinese have a reputation of pushing junk to the market, but they are also quite capable of producing good stuff when quality is needed. Their M14S receiver is probably the best ever made outside of legit M14 production in US factories. Some Canadian arfcommers have posted that they have one of these examples and was impressed.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:35:46 PM EST
I'm sorry that you are having problems getting spare parts for the your AR15. We have some Canadian people on this forum also, and they have subjected to the same rediculous regulations. Prior to the 9/11/10 WTC/Pentagon attack, everything was relatively easy to get, subsequent to that everything changed. Remember I recommended getting the Baretta AR70?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 3:40:40 PM EST

DRMO ?

Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:44:24 PM EST

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:
I am asking to myself, sometimes, IF a general boycott from European USERS (govt. should not even think to be involved...) should induce US firearm industry to tap at the doors of somebody in Washington and suggest to rethink the whole DSP83 thing...



That probably won't do much good. I mean, you guys could probably do it (and probably should since I also wouldn't purchase firearms without some assurances that spare parts or warranty is given if I'm shelling out quite a bit of dough), but in the end, I think you overestimate what our gun lobby can currently accomplish. They're still trying to protect themselves from the lawyers of the left so they can sell domestically - international sales is a far away blip on their radar.

But honestly, if it's that difficult to import parts and there is sufficient demand for parts, maybe a domestic manufacturer could arise? Looks like a huge vacuum in the market in Italy for someone to exploit.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:55:53 PM EST
Hey Tony or Gino or whatever.. I will trade you a bolt carrier for a mag extention for my Benelli M1S90. Screw you silly laws- I'll Fed Ex it.



lol
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:13:51 AM EST

Originally Posted By Sturmwehr:

So why they don't do it? In fact is your DSP83 document that is blocking at undetermined time export toward Europe (and other places...).


Your government tried no such lifts of embargos or trade-agreements when they could. That said, they all but handed over your rights. I don't know about you, but if there was a law passed by Italy banning the sale of Ferraris to America (and America did nothing), I would be pissed and I would blame MY government.




From this point of view my govt. pissed me off long time ago.



Although the United States imposed these laws against you, it doesn't mean that we can regulate how you and your country can do business. If France, Germany, Russia, the U.S., or any country impose regulations on Italy, Italy should disgregard and embargo said country or reason with its leaders... Not just hand over the keys to international trade.


I agree that is ALSO our govt. fault, lazy bunch of bureocrats, but I'd like to hear from you WHY is MAINLY my govt. fault. Gimme arguments, not words, please.


Again, U.S. law does not dictate Italy's rights to commerce. YOU and your government decide that. Your government did not, at any time, oppose this bill. Therefore, they are subject to it.

Don't know about you, but it sounds like a case of "Day late, dollar short" to me.


Gun ownership is still one of the BEST in europe in my country, even if not PERFECT.


I think you'd be quite happy walking into a gun store and coming out with an Armalite AR-180B in a matter of minutes.

That said, your politicans didn't bother to protect your basic rights to bear arms and to allow commerce to commence internationally. Therefore, they are the people that are dampening your rights.



I have to make some correction and portrait better the situation, after I had a long and controversial conversation with a journalist that is a friend of mine (very PRO gun, btw.) He knows very well the situation in USA since he lived there for 13 years before to be back to Italy (btw, he knows very well Kerry, and even if he hasn't a great opinion of President Bush, he had an even WORSTE opinion of Kerry...).

1) Effectivenes of a boycott:

He showed me, first of all, the EU and Italy figures about AR15 commerce:

- about 5000 rifles in all EU.
- about 1000 rifles in Italy.

Compared to USA, this is NOTHING: the figures in USA are about 25.000 rifles a year!

This means that a boycott, even at EU level, will marginally damage american manufacturers. The AR market for USA producers is self-feeding and can survive without Europe. BTW, since the last liberalization, the BEST AR consumer now is Germany.

Boycott effectivenes: NONE.

2) Who's guilty?

Sturmwehr was right and I apologize. With the DSP83 I can still order to USA American guns. Let say (I spoke with Olympic Arms Italian importer...) that I want to import an ML1 or ML2 in Italy, if I can afford to wait SIX MONTHS, pay about 400 US dollars, fill up DSP83 forms and complete with an amazing amount of paper, I can import from USA an original american M4 and legally own it. ONLY ONE. USA authority will never allow me to import a second M4 (to simplify, only one model importation is allowed. A second request for the same model will be denied.)
Blanket importation requests are ended for an undetermines period of time. Why?
Because our gracious, antigun, italian Ministry of Interior simply did not answered to a request od the US department of State asking to italian govt. to assure that NONE of the gun imported in Italy will be re-exported abroad. Technically the Ministry of the Interior knows very well were are all the guns legally purchased in Italy, and is very unlikely that a private citizen can easily re-export a gun. The Ministry of the Interior just DIDN'T answer to DoS inquiry and when terms expired US DoS put Italy in the list of those countries to which exportation is restricted.
The italian govt. restricted import of military style guns without taking any responsibility. But they are...

That's why in Finland and Norway, instead, can still import freely their AR: The Ministry of the Interior answered positively to US DoS interrogation.

3) Spare parts.

For AR in 223 caliber and milspec (few Colts, and all of Bushmasters and Oly... I heard also that there are few DPMS in Italy...) in Germany are available all the spare parts you want. I am going to make a list of parts I want to buy to maintain my AR as efficient shooter.

These are dark times for everybody. From this side of the pond, folks, the hope of EU RKBA supporters like me is that the AWB sunset sooner or later will bring consequences also in Europe and will ease the tight hold of the authority on law-abiding citizens.

For the moment I can only express a health and deep envy for you Americans.

Sorry for the long post, in the hope that it can be useful and interesting also for you.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:16:27 AM EST

Originally Posted By DriftPunch:
Don't you have contacts in Israel?

As a last resort... Don't the Chinese have an AR clone? The Chinese have a reputation of pushing junk to the market, but they are also quite capable of producing good stuff when quality is needed. Their M14S receiver is probably the best ever made outside of legit M14 production in US factories. Some Canadian arfcommers have posted that they have one of these examples and was impressed.



In Israel ANYTHING that concerns military things is strongly restricted to civilia ownership. Parts included.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:29:02 AM EST
Paolo, your rifle was made 10 miles from my house.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:36:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Paolo, your rifle was made 10 miles from my house.



You're a lucky guy!!!

* ENVY *
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 12:42:55 AM EST

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:

Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Paolo, your rifle was made 10 miles from my house.



You're a lucky guy!!!

* ENVY *



Well, I would prefer to live near the LMT factory, but I take what I can get.
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 12:03:06 PM EST

Originally Posted By PaoloAR15:

These are dark times for everybody. From this side of the pond, folks, the hope of EU RKBA supporters like me is that the AWB sunset sooner or later will bring consequences also in Europe and will ease the tight hold of the authority on law-abiding citizens.

For the moment I can only express a health and deep envy for you Americans.

Sorry for the long post, in the hope that it can be useful and interesting also for you.



Every time you hear some lefty Euro news report trashing the NRA, or making fun of the redneck americans with their guns, you should feel good. That's us fighting to keep our gun rights and it pisses off the left!

The funniest thing of all is how the NRA routinely gets trashed for being a bully that doesn't represent much of the country. Most of the left/socialists organizaitons are funded by a few movie stars and rich bastards. The NRA, on the other hand, consists mostly of 4 million (IIRC) regular, hard-working guys driving pickup trucks who give $100 a year or less. The NRA probably represents the working class of America better than any other organization!
Link Posted: 10/22/2004 12:09:41 PM EST
Hey Paolo,
We can get you all the Ar15 parts you want from here in the UK

We have loads of parts

Mark
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