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Posted: 5/21/2005 4:27:57 PM EDT
Police debate firepower options

By Bradford L. Miner TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF
bminer@telegram.com










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WEST BROOKFIELD— Some police departments swear by the 12-gauge shotgun as a backup to a service revolver, but others have abandoned the shotgun in favor of the patrol rifle.

And many departments have both, according to police chiefs in the region.

Recently, Police Chief C. Thomas O’Donnell and Officer Brice I. Leslie, a colonel in the Army Reserve who served 18 months in Iraq, convinced town voters to spend $6,510 to replace the department’s shotguns with eight AR-15/M-16 patrol rifles, a request that prompted considerable debate at this year’s town meeting.

Chief O’Donnell said yesterday that the debate came as no surprise.

“One’s point of view on shotguns versus patrol rifles may be simply a matter of timing; that’s to say, when one began his or her career in law enforcement,” the chief said.

“I had always favored the shotgun, but the more I researched the differences and the more I talked to Brice, who has more experience being shot at and returning fire than anyone else I know … the more it became evident the patrol rifle was a safer and more appropriate choice for today’s needs,” Chief O’Donnell said.

The shotgun has “its place” in a police department armory, he said, but the patrol rifle is more appropriate in a wider variety of situations.

“If a police officer is called upon to use deadly force, for the safety of the public, it has to be used with pinpoint accuracy,” Chief O’Donnell said. “The good thing about the patrol rifle is that it uses a .223 round. Most of its kinetic energy is spent when it hits the target, there is less recoil and less noise making it much easier for a police officer to stay on target, and not miss the target.”

The police chief said the shotgun is different. “Our short-barreled shotguns have much greater muzzle jump, decreasing their accuracy at anything but close range,” he said.

The chief said the department’s shotguns carry five rounds of ammunition, but the patrol rifle magazines hold 20 to 30 cartridges, so reloading is not as much of an issue.

“Mostly, however, our concern … is safety. And while I can understand some of the public’s concern over police departments having semiautomatic rifles, local police departments inevitably are first responders to incidents,” Chief O’Donnell said. “It may take the state police tactical operations team 45 minutes to get here. In some instances, we may not have 45 minutes.”

Ronald C. Glidden, chief of the Lee Police Department and chairman of the Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association Firearms Committee, said the organization has no position on shotguns versus patrol rifles.

“The committee looks primarily at legislative issues,” Chief Glidden said. “However, as a patrol rifle instructor at the police academy in Agawam, I can tell you there is increased interest among recruits in receiving patrol rifle training.”

Patrol rifles are more accurate, easier to train with, and typically more efficient and less of a danger to bystanders because of their accuracy.

Chief Glidden and Chief O’Donnell also dispelled a myth raised at the West Brookfield town meeting.

“The rounds from a patrol rifle in many instances have less penetration than some shotgun rounds,” Chief Glidden said.

One voter at town meeting asked what would happen if a patrol rifle slug missed its target, suggesting it could travel “for miles.”

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:35:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 4:35:55 PM EDT by Airwolf]

One voter at town meeting asked what would happen if a patrol rifle slug missed its target, suggesting it could travel “for miles.”


Dontcha just love asscrickets that don't know jack shit about shit but can stand up and spout off in public and get quoted in the news?

Dontcha just love the fact that there are millions of drooling, lobotomized sheeple out there that will nod their heads in unison and bleat "Ah yes, how true that is".



If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about keep your fucking piehole SHUT! But of course that would mean millions of people wandering around with absolutely nothing to say.

Ah, what a far nicer (and quieter) world this would be.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:36:00 PM EDT
If the citizens can't have them, the cops should not either. And less NOISE? Has the idiot ever heard the difference between a shottie and a Rifle? More accurate because of less recoil? How bout just less accurate, or our cops are pussies and are afraid of recoil. Ted has spilled his seed all over this once proud state.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:36:24 PM EDT
I thought Mass had a 1998 AWB so again why would the police there need AR-15s?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:40:22 PM EDT
Nor am I
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:44:45 PM EDT
A comprehensive training program should be required of officers that wish to carry a defensive weapon such as the M16 or AR-15. Not all cops are gun people. Most of the cops that I worked with and knew, were not great with firearms.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:50:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Seneca-Cayuga:
A comprehensive training program should be required of officers that wish to carry a defensive weapon such as the M16 or AR-15. Not all cops are gun people. Most of the cops that I worked with and knew, were not great with firearms.





How true.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:59:31 PM EDT
So when a police officer has an AR it's a "patrol rifle." But when you or I have one its an "assault rifle."
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:06:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 5:06:36 PM EDT by motown_steve]

“If a police officer is called upon to use deadly force, for the safety of the public, it has to be used with pinpoint accuracy,” Chief O’Donnell said. “The good thing about the patrol rifle is that it uses a .223 round. Most of its kinetic energy is spent when it hits the target, there is less recoil and less noise making it much easier for a police officer to stay on target, and not miss the target.”


No, that's not correct. We all know that assualt weapons are too dangerous to be used for self defense. We also know that these machines are not designed for pinpoint accuracy, but to kill as many people as possible in a very short amount of time. After all, how accurate can you be with a weapon that was designed to be shot from the hip?

No, assault weapons are weapons of war. They belong on the battlefield, but they have no place in civilized society.

A shotgun is fine for defensive purposes.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:12:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Airwolf:

One voter at town meeting asked what would happen if a patrol rifle slug missed its target, suggesting it could travel “for miles.”


Dontcha just love asscrickets that don't know jack shit about shit but can stand up and spout off in public and get quoted in the news?



Yeah, he's wrong.

If a .223 round doesn't hit anything, it will continue travelling until it leaves our atmosphere. Once free of the gravitational forces of earth, it will travel space for all eternity until it hits something.

Just think, a stray .223 round could kill an innocent alien child from the planet kreplach in the milton bradley galaxy. That would trigger an intergalactic war which will leave every man, woman, and child on earth dead.

All because some cop wanted a .223 rifle.

Silly humans. When will they learn????
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:21:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gun_Addict:
So when a police officer has an AR it's a "patrol rifle." But when you or I have one its an "assault rifle."




I fought that battle with a LEO one time. It was not pretty. I pointed out that his had the flash hider and bayo lug on it, and that it was more military than mine. He got all pissy about it. Funny, the LEO that was with him seemed real amused tat I was crossing sabers with his sergeant. The patrol man later told me i was right.


Patrol rifle in a pig's ass!


Mine is a sport/utility rifle.

In the hands of the horse's ass LEO(that specific clown, and not LEOs in general) the rifle is a semiautomatic assault rifle.

Fu(k him!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:24:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

“If a police officer is called upon to use deadly force, for the safety of the public, it has to be used with pinpoint accuracy,” Chief O’Donnell said. “The good thing about the patrol rifle is that it uses a .223 round. Most of its kinetic energy is spent when it hits the target, there is less recoil and less noise making it much easier for a police officer to stay on target, and not miss the target.”


No, that's not correct. We all know that assualt weapons are too dangerous to be used for self defense. We also know that these machines are not designed for pinpoint accuracy, but to kill as many people as possible in a very short amount of time. After all, how accurate can you be with a weapon that was designed to be shot from the hip?

No, assault weapons are weapons of war. They belong on the battlefield, but they have no place in civilized society.

A shotgun is fine for defensive purposes.




While we're at it, what's a cop gonna use a firearm for, anyway. He's just going to shoot some citizen with it.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:28:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:31:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gun_Addict:
So when a police officer has an AR it's a "patrol rifle." But when you or I have one its an "assault rifle."



+1

Yup, thats the media for ya, bunch of asshats they are.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:34:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Airwolf:

One voter at town meeting asked what would happen if a patrol rifle slug missed its target, suggesting it could travel “for miles.”


Dontcha just love asscrickets that don't know jack shit about shit but can stand up and spout off in public and get quoted in the news?

Dontcha just love the fact that there are millions of drooling, lobotomized sheeple out there that will nod their heads in unison and bleat "Ah yes, how true that is".



If you don't know what the fuck you're talking about keep your fucking piehole SHUT! But of course that would mean millions of people wandering around with absolutely nothing to say.

Ah, what a far nicer (and quieter) world this would be.




Supposse your in a plane, and you shoot at another plane....................................

That .223 is going so fast it's falling to earth slower than the curve of the earth. The further it goes the further off the ground it is.

Unfortunately, dumb ass voters, are still voters....................................... Voters expect to get to make their voice heard.

I could tell you about the meeting where elected reps were shown an AR15 and a Remington semi auto rifle with a wood stock................... They said the AR15 looked too scary for police to be carrying, but like the .30 cal (.30-06 ?IIRC) looked fine........... So we still have shotguns.

Or I can tell you about the "EOD call" that one of the EOD team members recently went on. It seems a tree hugger, umm government employee, felt the road flares in his assigned work vehicle "looked too threatening", and called to have them disposed of. How this became an EOD call I have no real idea. But the EOD guy, told him that since he was operating a commercial sized vehicle he thought it might be a requirement to have flares................... "too threatening, take them away".

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 5:50:21 PM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

“If a police officer is called upon to use deadly force, for the safety of the public, it has to be used with pinpoint accuracy,” Chief O’Donnell said. “The good thing about the patrol rifle is that it uses a .223 round. Most of its kinetic energy is spent when it hits the target, there is less recoil and less noise making it much easier for a police officer to stay on target, and not miss the target.”


No, that's not correct. We all know that assualt weapons are too dangerous to be used for self defense. We also know that these machines are not designed for pinpoint accuracy, but to kill as many people as possible in a very short amount of time. After all, how accurate can you be with a weapon that was designed to be shot from the hip?

No, assault weapons are weapons of war. They belong on the battlefield, but they have no place in civilized society.

A shotgun is fine for defensive purposes.




+1 Sounds like the assault weapon rhetoric that has been fed to the sheeple is coming back to bite them in the ass.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:13:52 PM EDT
All the other stuff aside, were I an officer on patrol (assuming a car, given the AR15 bit), I'd actually prefer carrying a large caliber, such as .44 Special, revolver, with the AR as the (handy) option when circumstances call for it. Indeed, an AR10 might be preferable.

In some jurisdictions, I could see having as a patrol vehicle a Jeep I saw advertised one time in the "Antiques and Classics section of the Automotive classifieds in the St. Pete Times (which alone makes it funny). A restored 1952 Willys military Jeep, complete with mounted Browning .50. NYPD officers, make your bids!
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:41:24 PM EDT
DON'T DO THAT, YOU'LL STOP THE EARTHS ROTATION!!!



Originally Posted By OLY-M4gery:
Supposse your in a plane, and you shoot at another plane....................................

That .223 is going so fast it's falling to earth slower than the curve of the earth. The further it goes the further off the ground it is.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 6:46:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 82ndAbn:

Originally Posted By bastiat:

Originally Posted By Airwolf:

One voter at town meeting asked what would happen if a patrol rifle slug missed its target, suggesting it could travel “for miles.”


Dontcha just love asscrickets that don't know jack shit about shit but can stand up and spout off in public and get quoted in the news?



Yeah, he's wrong.

If a .223 round doesn't hit anything, it will continue travelling until it leaves our atmosphere. Once free of the gravitational forces of earth, it will travel space for all eternity until it hits something.

Just think, a stray .223 round could kill an innocent alien child from the planet kreplach in the milton bradley galaxy. That would trigger an intergalactic war which will leave every man, woman, and child on earth dead.

All because some cop wanted a .223 rifle.

Silly humans. When will they learn????






Link Posted: 5/22/2005 12:58:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gun_Addict:
So when a police officer has an AR it's a "patrol rifle." But when you or I have one its an "assault rifle."



I guess that goes along with police "sharpshooters" and evil civilian "snipers."

That and police "patrols" and civilian "vigilantes."
Link Posted: 5/22/2005 1:12:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SeaClass:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

“If a police officer is called upon to use deadly force, for the safety of the public, it has to be used with pinpoint accuracy,” Chief O’Donnell said. “The good thing about the patrol rifle is that it uses a .223 round. Most of its kinetic energy is spent when it hits the target, there is less recoil and less noise making it much easier for a police officer to stay on target, and not miss the target.”


No, that's not correct. We all know that assualt weapons are too dangerous to be used for self defense. We also know that these machines are not designed for pinpoint accuracy, but to kill as many people as possible in a very short amount of time. After all, how accurate can you be with a weapon that was designed to be shot from the hip?

No, assault weapons are weapons of war. They belong on the battlefield, but they have no place in civilized society.

A shotgun is fine for defensive purposes.




+1 Sounds like the assault weapon rhetoric that has been fed to the sheeple is coming back to bite them in the ass.



Hang on to the article and the next time there is an pro-AWB / Sarah Brady propaganda piece in the paper, cite the article as proof that the media and the fear mongering anti gunners play with words to describe the exact same peice of equipment.
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