Okay,

Thought you gun-nut people would also be into the "other" form of combat forms as well! ;)

Seriously though, I am interested in taking up martial arts again.  I used to train in Tae Kwon Do and Karate, but never really felt it translated to street effectiveness.

I'm looking to pick a style that is sort of "practical".

Mostly hand/feet, but some use of weapons is fine.  (I live in Kalifornia, so its pretty much...you know).

And third, something that matches my body type.  I'm no where near the "fine-motor skill coordinated" sort of guy.  In recent scuffles I've been in, i've sorta just brawled my way through them.  However, it dosen't always work perfectly.  I'm about 5'7", 220.  The short, stocky, powerlifter sort of physique.  Pretty short legs, sorta short arms as well.

Any input is VERY welcome!  Thanks!

a Glock 36 (that's a .45 cal) would come in very handy. also a CCW.

and also, refrain from calling us gun-nuts. seriously.

Everyone has their opinions on what is best, IMO take a look at the grappling forms they are the best in a street fight. A lot of martial arts are really money machines for the instructors.
just my 0.02 RON

I practice Taekwondo, also.  We do quite a bit of ground fighting.  IMO, that's where most street fights are won or lost.  

Eddie

hey since you are in southern cal, check out Gracie Jiu-jitsu (GJJ) in torrence (sp.?) cali.  i have studied under Relson Gracie... and it works.  if you aren't familiar, they started the whole Ultimate Fighting Championship.  if you insist on a striking art, boxing is the way to go.... not kick boxing.

striking arts need one thing... distance.  if you are in close quarters, you strikes WILL NOT be effective.  all a GJJ practitioner has to do is to stay far away, or in close.  

classes for GJJ are taught in both GI and no GI sessions.  GI is mainly for competition and no GI is mainly for street fighting techniques.  In GJJ, there are no rules or kata such as karate, tae kwon do, and other traditional arts.  aikido and judo are great as well, but isn't as agressive.  keep in mind that GJJ instructors know many aikido locks, and judo throws are the same in GJJ.

a word of caution, steer clear of schools that teach both striking and grappling.  they are full of it.  once you see how classes are run at GJJ, you will laugh at how others TRY to teach ground fighting.

yes, GJJ is expensive.  its worth it though.  i've come accross situations where i had to use it.  it came very naturally... just like instinct.  

i will not waste my time defending myself against flamers, if you take offense to my criticism, then you have no idea of the effectiveness of GJJ.

The "best" system does not exist or it would be the only one. About the only good thing about living in Kali is tons of martial arts experience is available. Sample several and go with the one(s) that are most effective for you.

What about the "Vulcan" move Spock used;
any of that pressure point stuff work?

For street work, look for a style that:

1) Teaches grappling and striking - with the main emphasis on grappling.

2) Teaches points of anatomy, and the inherent weaknesses of the human machine (nerve points, blood points, joint locks, etc...)

3) Teaches you in AT LEAST a 'light contact' environment - ranging to 'full contact' for exams.  

4) Teaches 'real-world' fighting vice 'tournament' or 'mat fighting.'

 There is no style that covers all of this at once.  Aikido does well, so does Jiu-Jitsu.  Points 3 and 4 will depend mostly on the individual instructor more than anything else, but the contact in training will teach you how to soak up pain and ignore it, and will also help you know what to expect if it 'gets real.'

 You will probably find that a school with instructors recruited mainly from street police units and osme combat military units will serve your needs best - as they will know what you want to learn.  I will not fault other instructors - they will teach you the mental discipline you will need, but are more likely to think in terms of tournament rules.  The smaller schools in your area will probably be of more help to you, in the long run.  Check around.

FFZ

SoCalGunner,

        Look into Filipino martial arts. Although it is primarily weapons based. You can apply stick/knife defensive and offensive moves to empty-hand combat. Most of all, take a look at the art and make sure it fits, not only your body size, but your attitude. You have to feel comfortable with whatever you decide to pursue. Finding the style that fits you the best is more important than what others may tell you. Afterall, it's not the style that matters.....but the fighter. Hope that helps.

                                   Adrian

Anybody know of any "economical" ways or places to train in Southern California without completely breaking the bank?  Currently I have many tuition bills to pay and can't afford too much, but would like some decent level training.

I'm sort of leaning toward Jiujitsu, it gets a good rep from what I've heard.  

What about Krav Maga?  Any opinions on that?

Thanks for the help!

I know many will not agree with me on this one, but when looking for a good form of any sport, and you want to learn from someone whose heart not pocket is in it. Go to your local YMCA and check out their offerings. What you should not be looking for is a comerical outfit that will get you the "black Belt" in 10 weeks or less... The only way to really learn is in full contact sport and not to hurt someone but to be able to control them. Get them on the ground, pin them, game over. A lot of people will talk down Judo as it is known now. It was quite a bit different when the sport first came over to the states, what they were teaching was down right dangerous in the wrong hands, The sport has changed a lot and was up till just the last few years the only Olypic sport. Gracie has taken Jiu-Jitsu and used some of it's style and called his own. Jiu-Jitsu is the root of Judo also but it was adapted for sport. My brother has been in Judo since the mid '60s and now runs a program at a local YMCA and a community college, he also is one or the ranking judges in the US/Canada. He does this because of the love of the sport, not the money.
just my 0.02 RON

SoCal is a great place for Martial Arts.

Check out Wing Chun Kung Fu and Filipino Kali.

I will go for the Shotocan Karate. Hit low with strenght. Go for the arms, legs and vital parts. I watched a video of world Karate championship once, the Japs took 1st, 2nd, and 3rd place on all light, midle,and heavy weight. Their style is not pretty like Hollywood type but very effective. They came in low, and with a couple hit, they broke the opponent arms or legs and out they go. How can you fight with broken arms or legs? I saw it again and again.  They did it to the Kung Fu guys, Thai kick boxing guys, Tae Kwan Do guys, and whoever and whatever out there.

You will find as many opinions as martial artists. Practicing and becoming good at any martial art is better than not studying one at all.

I like Okinawan Martial Arts (currently study Shorinjiryu Karate) Whatever you do make sure your school practices free sparring. Working against a live, moving oponent is essential if you want to develope any prictical skills.

My thoughts on grappeling: its great if you know you will only be fighting one guy. Not too good if you get jumped by two or more. the second guy will kick the tar out of you while you are trying to get the first to submit. But now is a good time to reread my second sentance.

i take akido and love it. its also usefull if you have on bulk. brazilian ju-jitsu is also handy. by the way a firearm is a "martial arts" weapon

Don't forget to include endurance training and strength building.

I figured I'd throw that in since you guys pretty much covered the forms aspect.

I have been taking Aikido for a few years. There are a few police officers that also take the course. Every so often I get to attend one of the classes specifically for the police officers and these are some very cool classes. You get to learn some very useful tricks.

For those of you not sure what type of martial arts Aikido entails, rent Steve Segals earlier movies and you will get a good idea.

If you have any questions about Krav Maga, they
message board on their site (www.kravmaga.com).
I have been attending thier classes for the past
couple of months at their training center in West LA, and their instructors are top notch. If
you have anymore questions feel free to email me.

How about going out and learning the ancient asian art of [b]Feng Shui?[/b]  You can rearrange the furniture so your opponent trips over and falls down.   [:)]

I had a friend once that trained in Shotokan karate and it looked pretty effective.  Nothing appeared fancy, but it did seem it could be quite potent in the streets if needed.

-RoadDog

if you want the most effective fighting technique go with either gracie jiu jitsu or their cousins machado jiu jitsu. their cousins will teach it for less money and you will probably get more personalized training.

rent the first three or four ultimate fighting tapes at a video rental outlet and you will see that gracie style jiu jitsu is the best.

IMHO, Gracie jujitsu is ok for the UFC, where there are rules. In the street, there are no rules. Find a system, like Kenpo, which teaches how to put people down. Kenpo emphasises strikes to the vital organs. In the interim, condition your body and study the vital targets (which the UFC doesn't allow to be struck), groin, neck, eyes. Always carry at least a knife and practice using the knife.

kenpo works if the guy you are fighting will stand their like a stationary target. but in the real world most fights end up on the ground that is why gracie jiu jitsu is so efective. even if you take away the rules the gracies will still have an advantage because of their superior fighting techniqe. socalgunner before you lay down your hard earned cash ask first d if an istructor is willing to go up against one of the gracies or machados to prove his fighting techniqe is better.

exsanguinte, if you watched the first three ultimate fights the only rules wer no eye gouging or groin pulling. everything else was allowed. shots to the eye, neck & groin were allowed. and royce gracie won.

Street fight don't have to be pretty, but got to be effective.  Some time you trade blow, so make your every blow count.  In my younger day, I was good and I fought with 3 Gipsy guys in Spain with my girlfriend.  These idiots grabed my girlfriend breast in broad daylight as like I didn't even exist. A fight broke out and my idiot girlfriend panicked and grabbed both of my arms to lead me away from the fight for fear that I was going to get hurt. Right away I got hit with a sucker punch right in the face. I kicked my girl out of the way, and went for just one guy. Concentrate on one guy to deliver your blow but got to watch the other two. The guy came in with his head or try to head-butt me, I delivered a text book "one two blow" combination, I kicked straight ahead low and with all my strenght, got him right above his jewel, the guy bucked up and with both hand down to cover my kick (a natural move), I delivered a punch straight to his face right under his nose, "the upper lips", right between his nose and the two front teeth. That blow knocked him backward and flat on the ground, I  broke his nose and both front teeth. Once that happened, the other two back off real quick and retreated fast into the crowd. With a big crowd formed around us, I quickly took my girl and out we ran before the Policia Civil came.  Today, it's different, I will run first before anything can happen.  It's only memory.

I agree. There was a guy who was good at Jujitsu and he took down one of my friends in seconds. I put a steel-toed boot in his ribs and ended the fight. If he hadn't quit then I would have kicked a field goal with his head.
Take a hybrid art that teaches something from everything. Tae Kwon Do in my opinion, teaches some pretty stupid stuff like those low block-chamber drills. I took TKD for several years and now I know how to draw them off by going low & hitting high.
In a nutshell, I hate getting hit and whatever it is that keeps me from taking hits is what I like best. I like keeping my distance. If I can't keep a good distance I want to be inside like grappling. That's why you need both.

FWIW, I study Tang Soo Do/Soo Bahk Do.  Korean origins, but not as well known as Tae Kwon Do.  It's primarily a striking art, but also includes a number of effective joint locks and throws.

if anyone honestly claims they can fight and win more than one guy at a time i can set up a fight for you so you can proove it.

THE REAL

Done it!

F. You!

garmentles do you have proof ?, i.e video etc. i know a guy that took on more than one guy in a fight and won but the guys he fought were 13 & 14 yers old and he was in his twentys.

p.s nice language (f.you!)

THE REAL

Hey Junior.  I know that I have done it and more than once.  I don't have to prove anything to you or anyone.  You can call me BS if you want, I don't care. Your thought is meaningless to me.

ar_rifle, there is no need to engage in insults. i honestly want to see someone who claims they can win a fight with more than one opponent. socalgunner would like to take lessons from such a person. like anything else talk is cheap.

THE REAL

Insult? where do you see insult? Fighting with more than 3 guys is nothing to it.  I have read your previous post, you too took some martial art classes, the first thing they teach you is mental, 2nd self confident.  You don't have to be big and strong. The 3 guys I fought don't have any martial art knowledge, but they are 3. I did sparing in classe with 3 black belt guys all the time.  We practiced that way everyday. That was the way my teacher teach me. I don't have to prove nothing, just do it.

I don't know why this always comes to this, my sport is better than your sport. They all have their place, and a person who knows the limits will be able to use it with the most effect. There is no one form that is a all in one best of the best. For every situation that can happen the person that can see and know how to respond is going to be the winner. Yes, the kicking arts are very effective if you have the time and room but that is not offten the case. Most forms today are refinements of the basic martial arts what ever the style. The person who knows how to react without thinking is the one that will win, you don't plan your moves, you react. My brother was attacked by 3 18-19 yr olds, he took care of them in less than a minute, 2 dislocated joints and one KO'd kid. BIW my brother was 48 at the time in his suit. He is in sport Judo, but there is a dark side of the sport that is not taught, the stuff that can hurt.
rant mode off. just my 0.02 RON

Sorry, haven't figured out how to teach desperation. But, by God, I do whatever needs doing!

My suggestions:

Go visit the various schools in the area and ask to see a practice session, and ask about fees.  This will allow you to see if the style looks like something you want to learn, the ability of the teacher and senior students from whom you will be learning from, and how costly it is.  Avoid schools that won't let you do this.  Also, avoid schools that offer mandatory long term contracts, or make extraordinary claims (i.e. "in three months you can get a black belt and be undefeatable").

Practice... in the japanese martial arts there is a term shugyo.  Very loosely translated, it comes out as perseverence.  You may not be studying the "ultimate" martial art, but if you train hard, and KEEP ON TRAINING you will be much better off than someone who trains in the "ultimate" martial art for three weeks and gives up for some inane reason, or trains once a month.

Don't sweat the art selection too much.  The "my style is better than your style" debate is like the .45 versus 9mm or 1911 versus glock debates, pointless.

I would suggest that you pick an art and teacher that you can get along with from direct observation.  Stick with it for several years.  Then, switch or add on to your studies as needed.  Don't cross train until you have a _very_ solid grasp of your first art.

ar_rifle, i have taken gracie jiu jitsu and they don't teach you about self confidence or mental. they get to the meat of what is important. in 1989 i began jiu jitsu lessons at the gracie academy. i knew little about it except what a frind had told me. i'm six foot 200lbs. and bench press 325lbs. royce gracie tied me in a knot in about 20 seconds. to say the least i was very suprised because i had done well in wrestling.

if i can find someone who can win more than one opponent time after time i will take lessons from that person. so far no such person.

THE REAL

Why don't you and a friend go around picking on guys smaller than yourself. I'm sure that you will find someone who kicks both your asses that way.

That is one reason I find this "multiple assailant" stuff to be rather inane. Fighting follows the rules of chaos - there is "sensitive dependence upon initial conditions". That is surprise. The first strike. Kicking someone down stairs from behind as you're walking outside. And like any chaotic system, the outcome can be disrupted by large forces. Like a gun, knife or pool que. That is why, no matter the style, victory belongs to the ruthless.

Here is a link to many forms of the arts and also about Gracie
http://www.carbonecho.com/

During the heyday of Jujitsu, which stretches roughly from Hisamori in 1532 to
     the mid-nineteenth century, over 725 different ryu
     developed their own versions, some 'combat' styles that
     emphasized Jujitsu's place among the bugei, and some
     'aesthetic' or sporting styles that emphasized form or
     competition over practical use.  The Meiji Restoration
     began in 1868.  A period of sweeping change, reform, and
     Westernization, the Emperor became the primary figure in
     Japanese government, replacing the warlord Shoguns who had
     relied on the samurai class.  The samurai were prohibited
     from wearing their swords in 1871, and the conscription
     ordinance of 1872 established universal military
     recruitment among all males; now everyone could be a
     warrior, and the samurai were no longer the priveleged
     knightly class they once were (H).

With these changes, Jujitsu suffered; it was seen as the archaic practice of old
oppressors.  Disconnected from practical combat uses, it saw some of its darkest
days.  Jigoro Kano (1860-1938) took the elements of the dying art and formed the
more educationally-minded do art of Kodokan Judo, which emphasized falls and
throws while developing a new system of precise leg movements.  The remaining
practioners of Jujitsu felt a strong rivalry with the new Judo dojos, and in
1886, the Tokyo police arranged a competition to determine which art, the old or
the new, was most effective.  Though the fight is now legendary and opinions
differ, most agree that Judo triumphed:  the Judo students won nine victories
and tied only once with the Jujitsu fighters   The most notorious is Brazilian, or Gracie vale tudo Jiu-Jitsu,
which is currently popularized by its drastically effective use in televised
free-style fighting competitions, but Henry Seishiro Okazaki's Danzan (or
'Hawaiian') Jujitsu was the main style to reach new generations of students in
the United States.  Carlos Gracie's style emphasizes combat-effectiveness,
echoing the spirit of the samurai days.   studied Jujitsu for only a year in Rio de Janiero with the
renowned master Mitsuyo Maeda , but he combined what he learned from
Maeda with observation and experimentation in street-fights in the tough streets
of Brazil's favelas .  Gracie taught his brothers and his sons,
establishing a clan of fighters; he issued the 'Gracie Challenge,' an invitation
for any taker to meet him in vale tudo (or 'anything goes/ no holds barred')
combat, and fought and defeated skilled exemplars of Judo, Capeoria, and other
styles.  Gracie Jiu-Jitsu emphasizes ground fighting, and its most effective
techniques are the guard  and the mount.The Ultimate Fighting Championship, which has
started the hot new trend of no-holds-barred competitions between experts in a
variety of arts, comes from Gracie's ideas, and was started by the Helio Gracie
branch of the clan.  The UFC spawned other similar
competitions such as the Extreme Fighting Championship, the
Absolute Fighting Championship, and the one-time World Combat Championship.
Some believe that these events are useful testing-grounds for combat styles,
others believe that they are becoming increasingly sensationalist,
commercialized money-making schemes designed merely for pay-per-view television.
The

Real, good luck to you.  If you try to get a fight out of me, you are out of luck. As for SoCalgunner, I hope you find a good teacher (master) to prepare you well.  Mine did, mentally and physically. If I can sustain a fight with 3 black belt guys in his class, I have a better chance out there with some punks. He is Japanese and I don't know if he is still alive today. He also taught me something too that our Real here don't know about. "If you can avoid a fight without fighting, then you have defeated your enemy." Good luck to you Real "Junior member".

you're all gay

        [-!-!-]

Martial Arts are not meant to be used to kick ass but as a way to kick your ass into discipline.

If your serious  www.blayshalla.com  so.Cal.


"Strength is in Unity"

Warlock

Does this mean that, should I find myself in Brazil, that I can walk into his dojo and challenge him to a duel using a gendai budo of my choice versus his gendai budo and that he will accept?  Of course not.  I don't think 'anything goes' applies to japanese swordsmanship, and that is one of the arts I study.  

Testosterone aside, my point is that _every_ martial art has a set of rules that they operate under, even the 'anything goes/no holds barred' guys compete under a certain set of rules.  Once rules exist you play to the rules.  These rules may be obvious (no punches in judo randori), or very subtle (how much space are we using?), but they are there.  You can't avoid them, so you must learn what the rules are, how they limit you, and how to deal with the limitations.

Additionally, avoid the younger yudansha (black belts) and senior mudansha (not black belts) when surveying the dojo to see if you want to join.  They, like this thread, have a tendency to suffer from testosterone poisoning.  To get a good picture of the art, talk to the instructor and his senior students.  If they too suffer from "I can kick anyone's arse"-its, run, don't walk from that dojo, as they are busy working on their self image, and not polishing their moral stamina.  

On another subject, I have a tendency to be wary of newer arts that claim to do everything (koryu is a different matter).  My usual impression is that they do a little of everything and none of it well, or that they study one area in detail and provide the haziest instruction in the others.  The amount of material to be learned in any one area (grappling, striking, locks, throws, etc.) is vast and you can spend years working on the details of that one area.  While there may be arts and artists that provide an everything under the auspices of one art, they are rare.  It would be far easier to study with specialists in one area until you achieve competence with the understanding that that they are specialists.  Then add onto your training from there.

ar_rifle "senior member" would you please fight three opponents for me i would be so greatfull to you. you would be my hero for the rest of my life. please make your comeback.

THE REAL "junior member"

Preying Mantis Kung Fu is a very effective system. We practice a lot of close quarter combat that involves strikes, trapping,  misdirection, throws, grappling, etc. Contrary to popular belief, it is possible to deliver effective strikes from in close if you know what you are doing.

Gracie Jiu Jitsu is also a great system. I trained with a guy who was a direct student of Royce Gracie, so I know how good that system can be. However, a good number of Gracie people feel that  the Gracie system is the only one you will ever need. If I was limited to studying only one system during my entire lifetime, Gracie Jiu Jitsu  would be a very strong candidate, but it would be a shame not to learn striking techniques from other systems.  The way I look at it is, that if you want to become a complete Martial Artist, you need to know both striking and grappling. It’s kind of like wanting to learn to drive a car, but saying “I just want to learn to use the gas pedal, so I won’t need to learn to use the brake” or vise versa. Like some of the others have stated, a large percentage of fights end up on the ground, but they don’t all have to.

A real life example of this happened to one of our students. He was in a bar owned by his brother when one of the patrons was asked to leave. The guy started to get belligerent, so our student went over to help out. The guy saw him coming and charged him. Our student did a quick side step and delivered a nice knee to the diaphragm, Muay Thai style.  Fight over. Elapse time: less than 2 seconds. Bad guy was on the ground with absolutely no desire for further confrontation. Could a grappler have taken care of the guy ? Most likely yes, but who wants to roll around on the floor of a bar that is covered with stale beer and broken glass if you don’t have to ?

Since there is so much out there to learn, I guess the place to start is to determine what you are really the most interested in whether it be striking, grappling, joint locks, throws, or whatever and start with a school that teaches that.  There are a few things to watch out for though. If you walk into a dojo and the place is crawling with 10 & 12 year old black belts, or classes are taught by non-black belts, run away as fast as you can. It’s probably a money mill and that will be the main focus. Also, try to find a school that doesn’t charge for testing.  Some instructors feel obligated to pass you since you paid and they want you to keep coming back, but they really aren’t doing you any favors.  My instructor doesn’t charge for tests, and believe me, he feels absolutely no obligation to pass you if you haven’t mastered the material.

Also, what FreeFire Zone said is right on the money. You need to find a school that has some form of contact during training.  I know people who have made it all the way to black belt in some systems and have never actually hit anything.  Believe me, they are in for a rude awakening the first time they connect full contact with a hard object. Good luck in your search.