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Posted: 2/7/2009 1:51:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/7/2010 2:20:53 PM EDT by crashburnrepeat]
I have been feeling pretty tired the last few months, also have noticed a change in the way my muscle mass changes in response to working out along with a slight drop in libido. It's still there but not the same as before. So I asked my neighbor who's a doc and he wanted to run some tests.


I came back with low testosterone and very low Vit D. Testosterone was only 160 when he said it should be 400-800 and 400 was considered low.

he said it's likely related to stress and my travel schedule and work which lately has been insane. Also not sleeping well.

He outlined a couple of options. 1 is a testosterone gel but he said that's a lifetime option. Once you start, you can't stop. that doesn't sound good.

another one is something called "novarel" or HCG. He said it helps stimulate your body to produce it's own. This sounds like a better option since it sounds like I can come off it if my schedule goes back to normal or I start getting some sleep..


I'm not sure though. Anyone else gone through this? it's not bad, I feel fine I just don't feel quite "normal". Any reason not to use the Novarel/HCG stuff?


Link Posted: 2/7/2009 1:54:07 AM EDT
Look into DHEA supplements. It's a precursor your body uses to make testosterone. It might help if you are deficient in that area. Also make sure you take a good mulitvitamin. If you are deficient in certain essential vitamins and minerals the body sometimes shuts down production of
"less important" things to deal with the imbalance.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 1:58:55 AM EDT
{Insert witty reply here} My fever is back. Asshattery takes too much energy.

Best of luck, bro.

What are the chances of eliminating the problems in your life that are causing this? Is it really worth this?

Better to flip burgers and be happy than to make $250,000 per year and be miserable.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:01:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 2:02:25 AM EDT by 230grains]
The HCG is going to make you shoot loads like Peter North while you're on it. It's often used by steroid users to recover from a long cycle.

As for the test gel, it's worth it if you don't mind not coming off it ever. The hypothalamic pituitary testicular axis is delicate and your natural test production will slow down while on testosterone, it's a trade off.

How old are you?
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:09:18 AM EDT
I just turned 38 so i realize there is going to be a slight natural drop but 160 is low and from how I feel it's pretty far off what I used to be a couple years ago. I mean damn, I'm crying at the hallmark commercials! (just kidding but it's close).

I would like to shift to a less stressful lifestyle but I'm not sure what else I can do to support the fam. this crazy schedule is mostly temporary and will slow down in a couple months somewhat.

this has been a slow drop over the last 2-3 years..


I had looked into DHEA but was worried that it was one of those things that would actually stop my natural production or would screw with my levels permanently like it sounds like this cream would do.


while I played football in college and for a short time in the NFL, I never used steroids at all. How long to do body builders use it to boost testosterone and once I go off it, will the T start to fall off again?

This stuff is kind of expensive, about 80 bucks a month with medicine and needles and insurance is not covering it because it is also apparently used as some sort of fertility treatment for women as well.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:15:16 AM EDT
How long do BBers use steroids? Like honest to God, posing in man thong BBers? Year round. Year round steroids, year round insulin and year round HGH. It would be hard to recover from a cycle like that, lots of HCG and clomid i'd imagine and their estrogen levels would be going nuts. End up with a nasty case of gynocomastia.

If your doctor mentioned HRT, it's not an awful idea. I'd rather a slow release testosterone ester via an IM injection rather than put on a patch every day. One shot a week, no big deal.

You don't want to know where Human chorionic gonadotropin (HCG) comes from BTW. I will say that if you're taking it, and as a male, take a pregnancy test, it will come out positive.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:19:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 2:21:05 AM EDT by crashburnrepeat]
great. you can't say that and leave me hanging. where's it come from?


what I meant by how long do they use it was how long do they use HCG/Novarel after they go off roids? what I'm trying to say is if I take this for a while and my own levels come back up naturally, will I be able to go off this or am I going to have to do this for life?


edit to add: the HRT he suggested was a cream I'd rub on my arm once a day I think. but you're talking 50-70 bucks a month. for life. that adds up fast.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:27:42 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 2:30:52 AM EDT by 230grains]
It's made from pregnant women's urine....

I used to in another life be on my own HRT.... I was "on" this therapy for something around 35 weeks with testosterone being the base of it. After coming off and realizing the errors of my ways, my test levels were rock bottom. HCG/Clomid/Nolvadex got me going again and now at age 26 it's as high as ever. You using testosterone gel would be using much lower doses than I did when I was younger and dumber. Impact to your HPTA will be significantly less IMO but with long term use there is a chance of never recovering and being on HRT forever. What are your test levels at?

P.S. I'm not a doctor, so don't take anything I say to heart... I just know a thing or two about a thing or two.


ETA - just saw you listed your levels, that's low...
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:32:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 4:13:44 PM EDT by crashburnrepeat]
he said it was 160 when it should have been 400-800 or even a little higher. so it is pretty low.

I'm hoping to get it jump started again and go off HCG so I don't have to take it forever.

it's going to be a little harder to inject now knowing it's freaking pee extract. Oh well, I asked.....


I'm married, and luckily to some sort of a nypho or something so we're good-to-go. I still have a libido, but you're right the interest has dropped noticeably. The real issue has actually been stamina more than anything. My wife is always ready to go and we are a fairly, uh, long running couple but since it's started to fall it's like I have a clock on me. I got maybe half an hour or maybe 45 minutes before I'm back to pre-game state.

we could deal with it fine at it's current levels. The more serious problem has been being tired all the time and almost total inability to build muscle. I had double knee surgery 6 months ago (old football stuff) and have gained some weight. Now I'm running again and working pretty hard and I"m not picking up any muscle or getting in shape at all. It's like my muscles are on vacation. I've been running a couple miles a day 4-5 days a week and a few years ago I'd actually be improving and losing weight pretty easily now but I'm not. I'm not getting any faster, nothing.

that and lack of focus.

Dr. also said apnea can be CAUSED by low T, so it's a chicken and an egg thing. could be apnea pushing the levels down or having low levels is affecting my sleep, causing a viscous cycle.


that's why I'm so scared to get on a lifetime therapy, I think if I get the underlying causes fixed, I can actually go off treatment and be normal again.

at least hopefully. If not, I guess I will have to use the gel or something.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:36:02 AM EDT
Do you have a girlfriend/wife? If not, get one.. Once the test hits you're going to be humping the matress. Especially with your levels being so low right now, no offense but your libido must be nill.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:45:56 AM EDT
Tongkat Ali
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 2:48:48 AM EDT
Try the HCG. At this point you don't have much to lose.

If the HCG doesn't jump you up to normal, take the testosterone. However, as another poster said, try to get Testosterone Cypionate that you inject yourself rather than the gel. You'll get much more consistent blood levels of testosterone than with the gel.

I had low test levels and went on HRT last year (age 39). Testosterone is an amazing thing. The fact that I'm going to be on it long term isn't a big concern for me, especially considering how much I like its effects. Night and day difference for me in being on exogenous testosterone vs not.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 3:06:45 AM EDT
Here are a few products that I've looked into:

6-OXO Extreme
I guess this is one of the strongest over the counter test boosters and is often used for post cycle support for steroid users. However there may be permanent affects. This is what a rep from the company told me when I asked about it: As for permanent effects, yes and no; there are because 6-OXO is a suicide inhibitor meaning that it permanently binds to the aromatase enzyme rendering it useless. The no part though is that more aromatase is up regulated over time. Overall, there is no net total effect on enzymes in your body as time increases over the years.

Activate Xtreme
I am on this one right now. This product frees up your natural testosterone and doesn't have any permanent effects. It's funny I've been on this stuff for about a week and I have a full beard, back hair is getting even more out of control, and I'm getting hardons at work.

I would sat unless you were going to do hormone replacement therapy go with either one of the top two over the counter products. I've used a weaker product in the past and it helped me make gains in the gym and lean out a bit. That Activate Xtreme is suppose to be one of the strongest T boosters out there so I figured I'd give it a go. These products are meant to be used in 8 week increments (or cycles), followed by a four week break.

Good luck man hope this helps you.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:41:10 AM EDT
I was having the same symptoms as the OP. I had my physician run the test on me because I thought that might be the problem.

Turns out my testosterone level was 630. Started exercising - depression went away.

This may just be depression. BTW I'm 44 and changing careers.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:57:39 AM EDT
He already knows his testosterone was low.

I read something about hormone replacment at some bodybuilding forums awhile back. This was a couple years ago but apparently there are some docs that can give you testosterone, not sure what the age limit is.

I think due to the issue of potential abuse it's unpopular to give men testosterone but you might be able to get treated if you can find the right doc. You may be presented with the options they are giving you do to age, the men at that forum were older. Test levels drop as you age, kind of like male menopause.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 6:03:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 7:09:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 7:16:27 AM EDT by LibertyShip]
+1 on the DHEA. Try 50mg/day to start. Have your friend check your blood levels of that, testosterone and estrogen after a few weeks. Everyone metabolizes it differently, but it will probably boost your testosterone levels more than it will raise your estrogen levels. You will get a boost from it right away, but you don't want to overdo it. And it's cheap! If you are low on D, start taking 5,000 IU/day; most everyone should. And here is a good, safe product from a credible outfit:

Super MiraForte with Standardized Lignans
120 capsules
Item Catalog Number: 01315

Low levels of testosterone have been implicated in a host of life-threatening health problems. Maintaining normal testosterone levels is one of the most important steps you can take to regain your health and improve your performance. If you’re over 40, odds are you’re already starting to feel the debilitating effects of low testosterone. Research shows that by the time they are 60 years old, men typically produce 60% less testosterone than they did at age 20.1 With this drastic reduction comes several well documented problems—from the blues and cognitive impairment to reduced sex drive and abdominal weight gain. Normal testosterone has been associated with maintaining a healthy cardiovascular system.2


http://www.lef.org/Vitamins-Supplements/Item01315/Super-MiraForte-with-Standardized-Lignans.html
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 8:04:32 AM EDT
Take the testim or androgel.

All low T treatment is lifetime, or it falls back down.

Insurance pays for either of those, just apply to your clean and dry shoulder daily.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 8:20:19 AM EDT
A friend of mine has the same problem. He takes a testosterone shot once a month or earlier if he feels he needs it. I guess he's been doing it for years and it isn't an issue for him anymore.

Dolomite
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 8:22:03 AM EDT
Had a friend with a similar problem, he was a bit older though. They prescribed him some patch that he had to stick on his balls everyday. The doc also had his wife come in and they had to have a conseling session to discuss the effects of the threapy mainly the sex drive. I recall something he mentioned about the hair on his arms, I can't remember if he was losing the hair on his arms prior to finding out what his problem was or if he had begun to grow a bunch of hair. Anyway, I think he was in his 50's, ended up dying a few years later from health issues.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 9:25:16 AM EDT
I would check on fixing that vit D deficiency first. It may alleviate a good portion of the testosterone problem.

Then to focus directly on the testosterone I would concentrate on adapting to stress by getting better sleep, eating better(more), and resistance training if not already.

You didn't state any vices like drinking or smoking but these are 2 testosterone killers.

Sleep is a big factor in testosterone production, it can greatly reduce your perceived stress as well as actuall physiological stress like low blood sugar.You might give melatonin a try it helps sleep as well as being a super anti-oxidant.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 9:27:41 AM EDT
Could it be your stressed out + becoming an old man??
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 9:51:54 AM EDT
In my opinion, the HCG is probably the way to go, it will fix you up asap. Since you have a doctor and aren't doing this on your own, it's probably the safest way as well. I've tried the test boosters like 6oxo, tribulus, etc. They work to some extent, but not enough if you have a clinical condition. Plus, you'll often have a rebound effect once you stop taking them, which defeats the purpose of taking them in the first place.

Dhea is really good if you are suffering from stress related deficiencies, because it will keep your cortisol in check, but you need to tell your doctor first if you plan on using prescription HRT. I used DHEA for an entire year at about 150-225mg per day with no side effects other than a little extra body hair, due to increased test. DHEA often helps elevate your mood as well, although it may have been a placebo effect for me since I was no longer dragging ass every day.

If I had access to a doctor willing to put me on HRT, I'd be all over that. Combined with nutrition and a regular sleep schedule, It'll make you feel like you're 18 again.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 10:21:49 AM EDT
Wow, I didn't know stress and alcohol reduce your testosterone...

Probably explains why my sex drive is so low lately.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 10:23:09 AM EDT
Get divorced. No other life event, drug, hormone therapy, etc. does a better job of boosting your testosterone level.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 3:00:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2010 11:16:33 AM EDT by MrYar]
interested
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 3:12:02 PM EDT
dibs on guns since you won't have anyone to inherit them.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 3:15:58 PM EDT
They have a testosterone gel now....go see a urologist(sp) they have one on the radio like once a week here in town. Get your hormone levels checked.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 3:22:36 PM EDT
Man the Fuck Up! Oh wait...
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:16:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By samsong:
I was having the same symptoms as the OP. I had my physician run the test on me because I thought that might be the problem.

Turns out my testosterone level was 630. Started exercising - depression went away.

This may just be depression. BTW I'm 44 and changing careers.


I had the same thought. I was thinking maybe just depressed cause I"m working all the time, windowless office. 10 hour days in the darkness etc.

I have been working out like you are to pull weight off and have more energy but with the testosterone this low, the workouts really don't do much if anything.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:18:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 4:21:34 PM EDT by crashburnrepeat]
Originally Posted By NimmerMehr:
Could it be your stressed out + becoming an old man??


Check. I am definitely a stressed out old man. I had to play a basketball game for my church today and damn, I feel like I got hit by a truck. Can't even move my knees.



edited to add: I don't drink or smoke so those can't be it. My guess is it's sleep/work/getting old/ a side effect of an old injury that played hell with all my hormone levels for several months.

I had a head injury in football, two concussions that put me in hospital for a while. My hormones went all to hell then. Maybe it's a long term effect of that.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:20:28 PM EDT
Sounds like you caught teh ghey.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:25:32 PM EDT
bate.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:28:07 PM EDT
Grow some balls
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:29:49 PM EDT

Once your testosterone dips below 200 nothing can be done.

Your only option is surgical gender reassignment.

Please post before and after pics.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:32:25 PM EDT
take hgh
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:36:10 PM EDT
Tag for later reading.....
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:36:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 4:37:25 PM EDT by raven]
I would get into heavy weight lifting/bodybuilding. That plus supplements like tribulus and ZMA help boost hormone levels.

Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:37:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 4:38:06 PM EDT by Lexington]
Originally Posted By Evil_ATF:
Better to flip burgers and be happy than to make $250,000 per year and be miserable.


I don't know. He can sure buy a lot of boner pills on that kind of money.

I concur with the weightlifting suggestion.

Link Posted: 2/7/2009 4:57:45 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Milewsky80:
Grow some balls


actually my balls are huge. they are apparently just lazy.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:00:42 PM EDT
Do these products have any effects on your health, such as your liver or anything like that. Are they really as safe as the ad makes them sound.


Originally Posted By ShootToKill:
Here are a few products that I've looked into:

6-OXO Extreme
I guess this is one of the strongest over the counter test boosters and is often used for post cycle support for steroid users. However there may be permanent affects. This is what a rep from the company told me when I asked about it: As for permanent effects, yes and no; there are because 6-OXO is a suicide inhibitor meaning that it permanently binds to the aromatase enzyme rendering it useless. The no part though is that more aromatase is up regulated over time. Overall, there is no net total effect on enzymes in your body as time increases over the years.

Activate Xtreme
I am on this one right now. This product frees up your natural testosterone and doesn't have any permanent effects. It's funny I've been on this stuff for about a week and I have a full beard, back hair is getting even more out of control, and I'm getting hardons at work.

I would sat unless you were going to do hormone replacement therapy go with either one of the top two over the counter products. I've used a weaker product in the past and it helped me make gains in the gym and lean out a bit. That Activate Xtreme is suppose to be one of the strongest T boosters out there so I figured I'd give it a go. These products are meant to be used in 8 week increments (or cycles), followed by a four week break.

Good luck man hope this helps you.


Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:00:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 5:02:17 PM EDT by clement]
Don't jerk off so much.

Someone had to do it.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:12:27 PM EDT
I'd get a complete physical.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:31:10 PM EDT
Take two blondes and call me in the morning.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:39:00 PM EDT
Doesn't taking Testosterone increase your chance of getting testicular cancer?
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:39:27 PM EDT
Anyone else use Activate Extreme?
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:39:30 PM EDT
Anyone else use Activate Extreme?
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:45:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:47:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 5:49:09 PM EDT by corwin1968]
Originally Posted By crashburnrepeat:


I came back with low testosterone and very low Vit D. Testosterone was only 160 when he said it should be 400-800 and 400 was considered low.





I have a co-worker who recently started Testosterone therapy and I realized his symptoms mimicked my own so I scheduled an appt. with my doctor. He drew blood and later simply sent me a letter stating my T was normal. I made an appointment to talk to him and find out the actual number and it was 340! Everything I've read says that below 300 is abnormal. I guess technically 340 is in the normal range but I have the symptoms and a childhood injury that often results in decreased T. However, he doesn't seem too concerned about it. I will say my symptoms have improved with exercise.

Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:48:49 PM EDT
Tag....ya'll got me interested.
Link Posted: 2/7/2009 5:49:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/7/2009 11:38:09 PM EDT by Skillshot]
There is an herb called Tribulus. Put hair on my chest(literally). No side effects.
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