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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 2/1/2006 11:01:21 AM EDT
Had a 12 gun agency order that was just returned. Apparantly HK no longer imports this rifle for LE use. Wonder if this means they are going to completely phase it out.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:02:45 AM EDT
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:03:23 AM EDT
HK....the sukk.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:04:09 AM EDT
I really couldn't understand what all the rave reviews about this rifle was.
From my experience (limited) with couple G-36 I got to play with, it was nothing special.
What did it do that M-16/M-4 couldn't do?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:05:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



First thing I asked. I was told the LE HK M4 isn't even available for order yet. I then asked about the XM-8 and was basically told the same thing.

It is entirely possible all 3 will be phased out. Whoe knows what the Oberndorf Black Forest Elves are actually up to.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:05:29 AM EDT
extremely reliable?

At least, that what the articles store at (www.remtek.com/arms) say
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:06:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yobo:
I really couldn't understand what all the rave reviews about this rifle was.
From my experience (limited) with couple G-36 I got to play with, it was nothing special.
What did it do that M-16/M-4 couldn't do?



Shoot reliably for extended periods of time or untill it melts.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:07:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By yobo:
I really couldn't understand what all the rave reviews about this rifle was.
From my experience (limited) with couple G-36 I got to play with, it was nothing special.
What did it do that M-16/M-4 couldn't do?



I don't recall any "rave reviews." It was spectacularly unremarkable. While I liked some of the features when compared to a M16/M4, I wouldn't consider it overall better by a long shot. And it doesn't hold a candle to things like the SIG 55X series.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:07:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:09:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:13:40 AM EDT

Sounds like a good place for Sig and FN to step in.

My Brother-in-law is a cop in middleborough, UK (Yorkshire) and they are issued Sig 552s for their patrol carbine. He says it is a fine weapon. They also get to play with MP5s, G3s and P226s in .40.
The days of unarmed police are over in the UK, for a large part.


I think I would prefer a 552 over a G36 If I had to pick it.
I know SIg will export 55X series to the US for LE agencies.


Obendorf am Neckar must have either a blockbuster plan about to break, or their marketing-fu is very weak.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:13:42 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.



BATFE dickheads
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:15:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.



BATFE dickheads



I believe that is an HK rule, not BATFE.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:16:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?




Whatever HKs policy, it would be illegal for civilian sales according to the BATFE's new interpretation of the '89 importation ban. They are now banning importation of replacement barrels and receivers for civilian use for ALL military style firearms.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:16:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.



BATFE dickheads



I believe that is an HK rule, not BATFE.



I figured that it was because of the BATFE's position is that a semi-auto gun with any MG parts is an MG regardless of how it operates.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:17:35 AM EDT

Originally Posted By _DR:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?




Whatever HKs policy, it would be illegal for civilian sales according to the BATFE's new interpretation of the '89 importation ban. They are now banning importation of replacement barrels and receivers for civilian use for ALL military style firearms.



I thought that they dropped that.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:18:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.



BATFE dickheads



I believe that is an HK rule, not BATFE.



It may be, but as I stated above, BATFE is now banning importation of barrels and receivers for civilian use for non-sporting arms. I have the BATFE letter in writing, will see if I can dig it up and post it.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:25:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By PAEBR332:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.



BATFE dickheads



I believe that is an HK rule, not BATFE.



Correct. Bottom line if HK doesn't offer a "semi version" they don't sell the parts.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:31:22 AM EDT
Has anyone told hkpro.com? Is there weeping and gnashing of teeth?

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:32:16 AM EDT

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Has anyone told hkpro.com? Is there weeping and gnashing of teeth?




I quit trying to tell them things years ago.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:34:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 3:59:51 PM EDT by Master_Blaster]

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



First thing I asked. I was told the LE HK M4 isn't even available for order yet. I then asked about the XM-8 and was basically told the same thing.

It is entirely possible all 3 will be phased out. Whoe knows what the Oberndorf Black Forest Elves are actually up to.



I'd wager the elves are locked away in a hobbit hole, knocking the heads off some cold ones, trying to drown their sorrows over financial & engineering boondoggles.

Considering some of the "issues" related to the rather liberal employ of plastic materials in the G36 design (upper), as well weathering some crash-n-burn projects (OICW, XM-8), seems the setbacks would take a financial toll at some point. Their handguns seem to be doing better than their long-arms.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:36:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 11:39:02 AM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:36:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By SteyrAUG:

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By happycynic:
Do you think they'll use the 416 as a replacement? When you think of it, the 416 is basically a G36 with the superior ergonomics and modularity of the AR system.



How come they won't sell us the uppers for those?



Same reason you can't order MP5 lowers directly from HK. They consider them machine gun parts (there is no semi only version of the 416). The ONLY way to get these things is from a HK dealer and they have to order them under the agreement that they will be provided to LE only.



BATFE dickheads



That would be H&K being the dickheads, not the Alphabet Men.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:37:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 11:38:19 AM EDT by A-nus]

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
PWNED


Guess what's going to be offered for LE sales by the end of the year?

blog.yam.com/ump45/13c3fcbb.jpg



What? That hunk of shit SCAR i'd rather cary a 2x4 with a nail threw it.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:42:01 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 11:43:22 AM EDT by -Duke-Nukem-]
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:47:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A-nus:

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:
PWNED
Guess what's going to be offered for LE sales by the end of the year?
blog.yam.com/ump45/13c3fcbb.jpg


What? That hunk of shit SCAR i'd rather cary a 2x4 with a nail threw it.

It appears you've never handled one.

Kharn
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:49:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By A-nus:

What? That hunk of shit SCAR i'd rather cary a 2x4 with a nail threw it.



What, did your SCAR break already or something? What test did you devise that it failed? Did it have feeding problems, or it didn't shoot straight, or what? And how did you get one already, since they are all going to SOCOM right now for field testing?

Or did you just look at a few pics online, decide you don't like how it looks, and announce you'd rather have a 2x4 with a nail "threw" it?




Owned.

Fun day a work?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:53:39 AM EDT
that sounds like a wager! when i get my SCAR will test this theory out. you come after me with your 2x4 and ill use my SCAR and when were done well ask you again what you think of it.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:54:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By A-nus:

What? That hunk of shit SCAR i'd rather cary a 2x4 with a nail threw it.



What, did your SCAR break already or something? What test did you devise that it failed? Did it have feeding problems, or it didn't shoot straight, or what? And how did you get one already, since they are all going to SOCOM right now for field testing?

Or did you just look at a few pics online, decide you don't like how it looks, and announce you'd rather have a 2x4 with a nail "threw" it?



Wow.......completely and totally owned.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:55:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 11:55:25 AM EDT by HK_Shooter_03]

Looks Like HK Has Discontinued The G36 From Importation



They can't survive only selling HK uppers and UMPs to law enforcement; can they?

Does HK still import the UMP?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:22:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 2:30:43 PM EDT by _DR]

Originally Posted By motown_steve:

Originally Posted By _DR:
Whatever HKs policy, it would be illegal for civilian sales according to the BATFE's new interpretation of the '89 importation ban. They are now banning importation of replacement barrels and receivers for civilian use for ALL military style firearms.



I thought that they dropped that.



Nope. read it and weep. BATFE Says:

Accordingly, ATF will no longer approve ATF Form 6 applications for importation of any frames, receivers, or barrels for firearms that would be prohibited from importation if assembled. No exceptions to the statutory language, for example for “repair or replacement” of existing firearms, will be allowed

No more imported replacement receivers or barrels for civilians will be permitted. Includes new or used parts and assemblies. There goes your HK 416 upper or Oberland upper that is imported. LE only. So it doesn't really matter what HK says about the 416 sales to civvies until they build a factory here because ATF won't allow it anyway.

Straight from the horse's mouth: here

Haven't seen any letter rescinding that policy, and this is still posted at the BATFE website.

AFAIK this is ATF policy.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:30:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By HK_Shooter_03:

Looks Like HK Has Discontinued The G36 From Importation



They can't survive only selling HK uppers and UMPs to law enforcement; can they?

Does HK still import the UMP?



Currently yes.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 2:39:38 PM EDT
When the SCAR comes out I hope we can get it in SOCOM Dark Earth



If I dont get an XCR first
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 2:48:12 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 2:48:31 PM EDT by Mauser101]

Originally Posted By NonConformist:

If I dont get an XCR first



Latest 'news' from Robarms site said end of January...it's Feb 1 today.

I think they're hot as all get out though.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:11:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 3:16:00 PM EDT by A-nus]
-Any body with a pair of eyes can see, that the SCAR is an ergonomic brick; a mac-10 has a more sophisticated design.

-It doesn’t even implement simple proven features like razed fencing around the mag release or some sort of captive charging handle (and I think the charging handle is not static, not sure).

-It’s huge for what it is, that but stock is ridiculously over complicated and way to bulky.

-It is not a modular design.

-Personally I don’t like a one-piece upper receiver that includes the hand guards.


That’s just from looking at it. No need to go any further for me.

Saying it is a “hunk of shit” was not deserved but I think there are plenty of other platforms that are better, and I don’t mean the m4 or the g36.


Our S.F. deserves better,

JMHO

flame away!
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:30:13 PM EDT

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By A-nus:

What? That hunk of shit SCAR i'd rather cary a 2x4 with a nail threw it.



What, did your SCAR break already or something? What test did you devise that it failed? Did it have feeding problems, or it didn't shoot straight, or what? And how did you get one already, since they are all going to SOCOM right now for field testing?

Or did you just look at a few pics online, decide you don't like how it looks, and announce you'd rather have a 2x4 with a nail "threw" it?




A-nus is just doing what 98% of AR15.com did when the X-M8 came out.

It was called fugly, a fish the gay along with the classic ARF.com saying Fuck HK. Just from a picture.

Yet, when the first pictures of the FN SCAR came out the very same 98% creamed their jeans. And said " it is one of the more ergonomically designed weapons ever"

The fact is only a handful here has shot the XM8 or SCAR so 98% of us are full of BS and are just looking at pictures and what we read on the web.

I think the FN SCAR is ugly, but I will reserve my judgement until it comes out.

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:33:03 PM EDT


People who judge a weapon system on it's cosmetic appearance are why "Airsoft" was invented.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:35:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A-nus:
-Any body with a pair of eyes can see, that the SCAR is an ergonomic brick; a mac-10 has a more sophisticated design.

-It doesn’t even implement simple proven features like razed fencing around the mag release or some sort of captive charging handle (and I think the charging handle is not static, not sure).

-It’s huge for what it is, that but stock is ridiculously over complicated and way to bulky.

-It is not a modular design.

-Personally I don’t like a one-piece upper receiver that includes the hand guards.


That’s just from looking at it. No need to go any further for me.

Saying it is a “hunk of shit” was not deserved but I think there are plenty of other platforms that are better, and I don’t mean the m4 or the g36.


Our S.F. deserves better,

JMHO

flame away!



My understanding is that SF was heavily involved in the design process. But what do they know, they have low post counts.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 3:38:36 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A-nus:
-Any body with a pair of eyes can see, that the SCAR is an ergonomic brick; a mac-10 has a more sophisticated design.

-It doesn’t even implement simple proven features like razed fencing around the mag release or some sort of captive charging handle (and I think the charging handle is not static, not sure).

-It’s huge for what it is, that but stock is ridiculously over complicated and way to bulky.

-It is not a modular design.

-Personally I don’t like a one-piece upper receiver that includes the hand guards.


That’s just from looking at it. No need to go any further for me.

Saying it is a “hunk of shit” was not deserved but I think there are plenty of other platforms that are better, and I don’t mean the m4 or the g36.


Our S.F. deserves better,

JMHO

flame away!



+1

I'd rather see a gas pistol AR compatable accessories like rail systems or even some wonder-material parts for accessories to keep the weight down. Gas piston and possibly composite features are the next evolutionary step for the AR platform. Some redesign maybe needed to use composites, but I don't think its anything that can't be easily done while remaining compatable with older AR parts/uppers etc.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 4:49:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By A-nus:
-Any body with a pair of eyes can see, that the SCAR is an ergonomic brick; a mac-10 has a more sophisticated design.



Consider the relative size against the user in the photo.



Seems w/ in normal parameters to me.


-It doesn’t even implement simple proven features like razed fencing around the mag release or some sort of captive charging handle (and I think the charging handle is not static, not sure).


While the proto didn't, the current version does. Note the fencing in the photo below. Peruse a copy of the recent article in Speshul Wepunz for Milly & Po-po, & you'll see that the L-side mag button is fenced as well.

As for the reciprocating charging handle, my AK's have 'em (Whose don't?), & they're simple & easy. Never have had my hand smacked by one. Hope to keep it that way. The handle "pin" inserts in either side of the carrier extentsion. Dual-sided folding handles that disengage might've been slick, but slower to use for sure, & maybe problematic in other ways. SOCOM didn't require such slickery, & probably for a good reason.




-It’s huge for what it is, that but stock is ridiculously over complicated and way to bulky.


I'll reserve judgement on the stock if & until when I can handle one in the 1st-person. A complex system is typically prone to being problematic, I'll grant you. That said, it's what SOCOM specified. No one in the SCAR competition would been able to avoid it. SOCOM wanted adjustable cheek weld & LOP, & for it to fold also.


-It is not a modular design.


????????????? FN pulled a major bait-&-switch if so, since modularity was another requirement in the design doc. It possesses 90% (claimed) parts commonality & caliber convertibility. That's some trick, if what you're saying is true.


-Personally I don’t like a one-piece upper receiver that includes the hand guards.


That rules out the LMT MRP , L-W's (forthcoming???) MRS, MGI QCB upper, Robarm's (forthcoming???) XCR, as well as a host of others I'm not mentioning.


That’s just from looking at it. No need to go any further for me.

Saying it is a “hunk of shit” was not deserved but I think there are plenty of other platforms that are better, and I don’t mean the m4 or the g36.

Our S.F. deserves better,

JMHO



There's no requirement that this thing be liked, & no one's stupid for not liking it. To each his/her own, I say. Personally, I think the Mk 23 is a brick, but SOCOM solicited & HK delivered. Some like it. Fine by me. Just not my thing.

If I had control of the SCAR dev. program, I would've wanted the bbl. to be a truly "quick-change" system like the L-W MRS design. I'm sure the FN method is secure, especially w/ the redundant front-end push-pin engaging the lower rail on the bbl. assy. But still....

I'd also want a mag-well interchangability feature, like the upcoming MGI system, that would accomodate AK mags in the field. That said, SOCOM didn't specify these two points in its solicitation, so no joy. As it is, the design looks solid to me, & it's the only design that feaures fully ambidextrous controls that I've seen in a battle rifle.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:05:07 PM EDT
HK is really losing it. They made the plastic guns because they are cheap not because they are better. The UMP is not better than the mp5 in function. One would think after all these years they could improve the system.
They are not looking ahead anymore,they only know how to hide from the lawyers.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:23:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 6:34:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2006 6:35:19 PM EDT by Va_Dinger]

Originally Posted By _DR:

People who judge a weapon system on it's cosmetic appearance are why "Airsoft" was invented.





I have handled and shot the HK416 and it is one hell of a weapon. Good enough for several thousand of them to already be in service with some of America's most elite military units. I keep hearing rumors that it's coming this year for LEO's and civilian sales down the road. I certainly hope so.

(P.S.) Colt had much to do with the delay in HK416 sales. Their lawsuit over the HK416's original name "HKM4" slowed it down considerably.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:01:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Master_Blaster:


I'd also want a mag-well interchangability feature, like the upcoming MGI system, that would accomodate AK mags in the field. That said, SOCOM didn't specify these two points in its solicitation, so no joy. As it is, the design looks solid to me, & it's the only design that feaures fully ambidextrous controls that I've seen in a battle rifle.



Me too, also a problem i have.
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:05:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By UZI4you:

Originally Posted By -Duke-Nukem-:

Originally Posted By A-nus:

What? That hunk of shit SCAR i'd rather cary a 2x4 with a nail threw it.



What, did your SCAR break already or something? What test did you devise that it failed? Did it have feeding problems, or it didn't shoot straight, or what? And how did you get one already, since they are all going to SOCOM right now for field testing?

Or did you just look at a few pics online, decide you don't like how it looks, and announce you'd rather have a 2x4 with a nail "threw" it?




A-nus is just doing what 98% of AR15.com did when the X-M8 came out.

It was called fugly, a fish the gay along with the classic ARF.com saying Fuck HK. Just from a picture.

Yet, when the first pictures of the FN SCAR came out the very same 98% creamed their jeans. And said " it is one of the more ergonomically designed weapons ever"

The fact is only a handful here has shot the XM8 or SCAR so 98% of us are full of BS and are just looking at pictures and what we read on the web.

I think the FN SCAR is ugly, but I will reserve my judgement until it comes out.




+1000, uzi your the only one who got it!!
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:55:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 6:56:41 AM EDT by Tuukka]
I see a lot of quickly spouted words on the FN ARM/SCAR rifles, yet how many realize that the development of the weapon system went in close co-operation with people who do a little bit more, than mock outside appearances of weapons on the Internet...

Link Posted: 2/10/2006 9:33:07 PM EDT
HA!. Looks like I scooped HKPro by ONE DAY...

HKPRO NEWS

2.2.2006: HK INC. reportedly importing -ZERO-units of G36 series in 2006. Does this signal a push of the HK416? Sources indicate 416 series to be available to state and local L.E. agencies this year.
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