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Posted: 1/1/2016 6:04:33 PM EDT
I know that companies such as bang steel suggest a rifle that will shoot under an inch for the long range classes.... After I bedded my R700 long range, I've shot about 12 groups with reloads since I did it (Tuesday). As of today the average is .71925 or 3/4 an inch.... With factory loads the gun is another story with 165 remington corelokt I get about 1.25- 1.5.....

Is pretty much stock but will have a new trigger before I take the class in the summer. It is equipped with an older (early 2000's) Leupold 12x fixed power scope. Would this rifle be capable or would I be wasting my time?

Groups from Wednesday evening.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:10:24 PM EDT
Email the instructor and see.

Myself and another ARFcommer took a class together.
Both 700s. Mine had no work his was blue printed I think.
His a SWFA fixed and mine a Vortex variable.
Both worked.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:17:02 PM EDT
The real question is what does the gun do with FGMM 175?
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:17:08 PM EDT
Depends on what you're trying to do, but that is likely capable for most classes. 308 I assume? What muzzle velocities are you getting, and what projectiles are you shooting? In 308, you'll want something with a good BC.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:22:17 PM EDT
Post this question in the Precision Rifle forum and you'll get better answers than you'll find in GD.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:30:00 PM EDT
It looks like it shoots good enough.  Settle on a good load using a high bc bullet and stick with it exclusively.  I would be more concerned with whether or not the optic is appropriate for long range precision.  Do the reticle and turrets match?  Does it track correctly and return to zero accurately?
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:33:01 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By steinhab:
Post this question in the Precision Rifle forum and you'll get better answers than you'll find in GD.
View Quote


Also this.

My impressions from the first long range class I took were that I had about the minimum glass I would want (SWFA 10x mil/mil - it was sufficient, but not top-of-the-line by any means), and that my rifle was fun to shoot, but was too heavy for anything but fully supported (prone or bench) shooting. Musts are a clear scope with repeatable adjustments, parallax adjustment, and some sort of reticule that allows holdovers, especially for wind. Personally, I prefer FFP with mil/mil reticle/adjustments, and minimum power of 10x-12x for anything past about 700 yards. Outside of that, there's not a lot you NEED to get started, per se, but there are many things that are nice to have.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:37:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2016 6:40:17 PM EDT by fargo007]
The rifle is plenty accurate enough to train with us.

http://bhtcorps.com

I would highly recommend some better glass though.  PM me with your budget and I'd be happy to recommend.

Chasing the magical accuracy dragon is a trap that a lot of shooters fall into, and never come out of.  

I think this is how benchrest came to be.  

ETA - also I'd like to hear the recipe used for the groups.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:38:40 PM EDT
Try shooting some groups with some decent factory ammo....something better than core-locked crap !!!
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:41:45 PM EDT
You should be fine with it.
The factory ammo you used isn't match ammo so the grouping is understandable .

You didn't say what type of trigger you are installing but that will also improve your grouping.
As to the scope you're are using , it's an older  fixed power 12x Leupold  with a duplex  with a target dot?

It's not a bad scope but it could be a limiting factor for a long range class if you're  changing distance during your class.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:41:49 PM EDT
Get a idea of the MOA of the crosshairs.   Call Leupold, tell them model and year of your scope and they can give you the info. Then do a ballistics spec on the round you will be using.


Once you have the reticle delineations and ballistics, go to a 600 yard range a get familiar with using it.

You should be able to hit stuff inside 600 yards with a regular duplex reticle, assuming you aren't dealing with crazy crosswinds. A cosign indicator and spec card might be something to look into.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:42:00 PM EDT
When Bryan Litz ran through his first round hit proability calculator, the change in probability when going from a 1MOA rifle to a 2MOA rifle had almost no change.

Meaning, the ultimate accuracy of the rifle is far down the list when ranking the importance of variables.

Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:47:49 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:49:49 PM EDT
I huge part of the class I took was ranging targets.
We did a lot of that before ever pulling a trigger.
So depending on the class and your scope reticle you may need a different scope.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:49:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:52:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By krpind:
My experience with Corelokts is they are great at killing shit, but don't group that well. They aren't bad, but they aren't precise either.

I doubt any rifle no matter how well made will change that by much.
View Quote



My experience too. That fact that the OP is gettin around an inch and a half with them gives me confidence that he can do well with what he has.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 6:54:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:01:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fargo007:
The rifle is plenty accurate enough to train with us.

http://bhtcorps.com

I would highly recommend some better glass though.  PM me with your budget and I'd be happy to recommend.

Chasing the magical accuracy dragon is a trap that a lot of shooters fall into, and never come out of.  
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Originally Posted By fargo007:
The rifle is plenty accurate enough to train with us.

http://bhtcorps.com

I would highly recommend some better glass though.  PM me with your budget and I'd be happy to recommend.

Chasing the magical accuracy dragon is a trap that a lot of shooters fall into, and never come out of.  


This. For one thing you need glass that tracks flawlessly. Given a fixed budget I would take a cheap rifle and put a $2000 scope on it. At one point I actually had an FN SPR with a Premier on it. The value in the rifle was in the rings.

Originally Posted By SCW:
When Bryan Litz ran through his first round hit proability calculator, the change in probability when going from a 1MOA rifle to a 2MOA rifle had almost no change.

Meaning, the ultimate accuracy of the rifle is far down the list when ranking the importance of variables.


This is true. An accurate rifle is nice in that you can isolate other variables, but the other variables are more important.


Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:21:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2016 7:26:41 PM EDT by InternationalM]
Sorry for taking so long to reply

The scope is a duplex, it tracks well and returns to zero without problem (I do have issues going back to zero, but its a me probelm lol......)
I need to call leuplod about the MOA
It does have an adjustment for parlax.

Its actually a 3006 lol, I thought it was a better deal than the 308 sps.....
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:25:53 PM EDT
Oh yea it also has target turrets but is 1/4 inch at 100 yards... Hopefully I helped.

The load is IMR 4895 43 grains
168 grain Hornady Match
Remington cases
CCI bench rest primers
OAL 3.300

I found the load in a Lyman reloading manual, not the big book but the pamphlet for a 30 cal rounds (it has 308, 3006, 300 WSM etc lol it was a gift from an ex of all things lol)
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:26:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2016 7:29:41 PM EDT by Hollywood_Shooter]
OP, can I assume the barrel on your R700 is a factory barrel?  Do you know what the round count is on the barrel?

R700 factory barrels are notorious for long loose sloppy chambers so that they can accommodate the largest variety of factory ammo without concern for an over pressure event, and to limit Rem's need for a liability lawyer.

That being said, with hand loads tailored to your barrel and chamber, it is possible to be able to shoot consistently sub-Moa.  While I understand you're already reloading, since you stated you're new to Precision, can I assume you're also new to precision reloading? The reloading forum can help you with the additional steps required to produce sub-1/2-moa ammo tailored to YOUR rifle.  For example, you're going to want to measure your jump to the lands, and then if possible, back off your seating depth 0.002"...if you can do that and still stay within your magazine maximum OAL length.   Are you annealing your brass for consistent neck tension?

Do you know if your R700 action has been trued?  That will certainly help with the consistency / accuracy....assuming you've already got solid fundamentals and solid support when shooting for groups.

I shoot a R700 with a factory 5R barrel chambered in .308. that I bought used.  It's got over 4000 rounds through it chasing elusive accuracy that it may no longer be capable of due to throat erosion.   I'm in the process of rebarreling with a new Bartlein 5R that should hopefully eliminate my issues.

ETA:  Just read your comment above that was posted while I was writing this
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:33:09 PM EDT
save to core locks for bambi. get some 168gr SMK FGMM. My LTR 700 prefers 168 over 175 in either hand loads or factory.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:36:44 PM EDT
If it shoots MOA or better (which it is) you should be good to go.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:42:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2016 8:08:28 PM EDT by ReconB4]
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:45:43 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By InternationalM:
Oh yea it also has target turrets but is 1/4 inch at 100 yards... Hopefully I helped.

The load is IMR 4895 43 grains
168 grain Hornady Match
Remington cases
CCI bench rest primers
OAL 3.300

I found the load in a Lyman reloading manual, not the big book but the pamphlet for a 30 cal rounds (it has 308, 3006, 300 WSM etc lol it was a gift from an ex of all things lol)
View Quote



Can I ask you how you know the scope tracks well?

What type of test did you do to determine this
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:50:00 PM EDT
Get a 20 MOA base for your scope.

At 1000 yards your going to be cranking a bunch and depending on scope it might bottom out.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:51:16 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode:



Can I ask you how you know the scope tracks well?

What type of test did you do to determine this
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Originally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode:
Originally Posted By InternationalM:
Oh yea it also has target turrets but is 1/4 inch at 100 yards... Hopefully I helped.

The load is IMR 4895 43 grains
168 grain Hornady Match
Remington cases
CCI bench rest primers
OAL 3.300

I found the load in a Lyman reloading manual, not the big book but the pamphlet for a 30 cal rounds (it has 308, 3006, 300 WSM etc lol it was a gift from an ex of all things lol)



Can I ask you how you know the scope tracks well?

What type of test did you do to determine this



Ok, well I thought i Knew what I was talking about, but I realize, I am an idiot lol.... I thought tracking meant it would return to zero when I adjust for different ranges.....
How would you check it? Sorry about that....
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:55:34 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MitchAlsup:
The real question is what does the gun do with FGMM 175?
View Quote


Yea, shoot some of this through it and see what it does.  
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 7:59:47 PM EDT
Tracking means that the adjustment values are accurate and repeatable.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 8:03:49 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By InternationalM:



Ok, well I thought i Knew what I was talking about, but I realize, I am an idiot lol.... I thought tracking meant it would return to zero when I adjust for different ranges.....
How would you check it? Sorry about that....
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Originally Posted By InternationalM:
Originally Posted By ranging-by-zipcode:
Originally Posted By InternationalM:
Oh yea it also has target turrets but is 1/4 inch at 100 yards... Hopefully I helped.

The load is IMR 4895 43 grains
168 grain Hornady Match
Remington cases
CCI bench rest primers
OAL 3.300

I found the load in a Lyman reloading manual, not the big book but the pamphlet for a 30 cal rounds (it has 308, 3006, 300 WSM etc lol it was a gift from an ex of all things lol)



Can I ask you how you know the scope tracks well?

What type of test did you do to determine this



Ok, well I thought i Knew what I was talking about, but I realize, I am an idiot lol.... I thought tracking meant it would return to zero when I adjust for different ranges.....
How would you check it? Sorry about that....



You're not an idiot



You are half right

What you need to make sure is when dialing for those ranges does the  reticle correspond to the number of clicks you are dialing.

In other words if you are zeroed at a 100 yards does 1 click move your POI 1 inch at 400 yards.

You can try a simple box test at 100 yards but my self I like to do it at  200 yards

Big piece of card board and measure you impacts  , 20 clicks up  , 10 clicks   right , 20 clicks , down and 10 clicks left

You should be at your original POI
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 8:36:16 PM EDT
Thanks guys for the help I got a lot of ideas the piddle with. THanks again
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:15:06 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2016 9:16:25 PM EDT by lefty-weaver-g19]
Here is a simple tracking test I did in a hurry on an swfa 12x optic.  I would normally want to do a little more thorough test, but I was in a hurry heading to a long range shoot that day.  I had just settled on a load and wanted to make sure the optic was working correctly.

I draw 2 lines for elevation and windage using a level.  I put a dot at the intersection of the 2 lines.  This is my zero check and aiming point for all shots in the test.  I measure up the line 3.6" with calipers and place a dot.  This is 1.0 mil or ten clicks of up elevation.  I also do this in each direction horizontally.  I then measure up the line 7.2" with calipers and place another dot.  This is 2.0 mils or 20 clicks of up elevation.  Continue this on up.  Again I would normally want to do a more thorough test, but this was enough in the time I had.

In this example the first shot was a cold clean bore shot with a little shooter trigger jerking going on as well.  I then fired and hit within 1/2 moa of center of every dot which is acceptable to me.  Remember every shot is fired at the dot located at the intersection of the 2 lines.  The only thing changed is the turret adjustments on the optic.  After this I fired a 5 round group separately to confirm a good solid zero before starting to collect long range data.



ETA:  I setup target with a level to make sure it is perfect and target must be set at exactly 100 yards in this particular test example.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:20:53 PM EDT
What rifle do you shoot that you have a cold bore flier?
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:22:22 PM EDT
OP,

You really need a scope that has a reticle that you can use as a ruler for various aspects of precision shooting.  

I Recommend MIL or MIL based, but if you insist on going MOA for whatever reason that's fine as long as.....

It is important that your reticle and the knobs adjust in the same unit of measure.  

For example, you DON'T want a scope with a mildot reticle and knobs that adjust in .25MOA.   Is it usable?  Yes, but you will have to keep two sets of elevation dope or do mathematical conversions in the field, on the fly to go between them.  It's an extra suitcase to carry, unnecessarily.

e.g.

A MIL based reticle and knobs that adjust in .1 MIL is good.  

A MIL based reticle and knobs that adjust in .25MOA is bad.  

A MOA based reticle and knobs that adjust in .25MOA is good.

Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:27:53 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What rifle do you shoot that you have a cold bore flier?
View Quote


The same one that shot this 4 round group and also sits at 4th place on the moa all day challenge bolt action division.  Why only 4 rounds in this group?  Because it was the last 4 rounds I had after finishing the moa all day challenge.


Like I mentioned there was some shooter trigger jerking involved as well on that cold bore shot.  Also cold clean bore is much different than cold bore alone.  I've came a long way in my shooting since I shot that test target a year ago.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:28:59 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
Here is a simple tracking test I did in a hurry on an swfa 12x optic.  I would normally want to do a little more thorough test, but I was in a hurry heading to a long range shoot that day.  I had just settled on a load and wanted to make sure the optic was working correctly.

I draw 2 lines for elevation and windage using a level.  I put a dot at the intersection of the 2 lines.  This is my zero check and aiming point for all shots in the test.  I measure up the line 3.6" with calipers and place a dot.  This is 1.0 mil or ten clicks of up elevation.  I also do this in each direction horizontally.  I then measure up the line 7.2" with calipers and place another dot.  This is 2.0 mils or 20 clicks of up elevation.  Continue this on up.  Again I would normally want to do a more thorough test, but this was enough in the time I had.

In this example the first shot was a cold clean bore shot with a little shooter trigger jerking going on as well.  I then fired and hit within 1/2 moa of center of every dot which is acceptable to me.  Remember every shot is fired at the dot located at the intersection of the 2 lines.  The only thing changed is the turret adjustments on the optic.  After this I fired a 5 round group separately to confirm a good solid zero before starting to collect long range data.

http://s28.postimg.org/7ojdfi0tp/IMG_4981.jpg

ETA:  I setup target with a level to make sure it is perfect and target must be set at exactly 100 yards in this particular test example.
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That's nice. If SHTF, I want you on my overwatch.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 9:31:04 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:

That's nice. If SHTF, I want you on my overwatch.
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Originally Posted By iwouldntknow:
Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
Here is a simple tracking test I did in a hurry on an swfa 12x optic.  I would normally want to do a little more thorough test, but I was in a hurry heading to a long range shoot that day.  I had just settled on a load and wanted to make sure the optic was working correctly.

I draw 2 lines for elevation and windage using a level.  I put a dot at the intersection of the 2 lines.  This is my zero check and aiming point for all shots in the test.  I measure up the line 3.6" with calipers and place a dot.  This is 1.0 mil or ten clicks of up elevation.  I also do this in each direction horizontally.  I then measure up the line 7.2" with calipers and place another dot.  This is 2.0 mils or 20 clicks of up elevation.  Continue this on up.  Again I would normally want to do a more thorough test, but this was enough in the time I had.

In this example the first shot was a cold clean bore shot with a little shooter trigger jerking going on as well.  I then fired and hit within 1/2 moa of center of every dot which is acceptable to me.  Remember every shot is fired at the dot located at the intersection of the 2 lines.  The only thing changed is the turret adjustments on the optic.  After this I fired a 5 round group separately to confirm a good solid zero before starting to collect long range data.

http://s28.postimg.org/7ojdfi0tp/IMG_4981.jpg

ETA:  I setup target with a level to make sure it is perfect and target must be set at exactly 100 yards in this particular test example.

That's nice. If SHTF, I want you on my overwatch.


Thanks for the compliment, but I'm just a target shooter and there are many better than I am.  I do have a passion for long range shooting which has driven me to continue to learn and improve.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 10:17:22 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:


The same one that shot this 4 round group and also sits at 4th place on the moa all day challenge bolt action division.  Why only 4 rounds in this group?  Because it was the last 4 rounds I had after finishing the moa all day challenge.
http://s8.postimg.org/wg942giwl/IMG_0718.jpg

Like I mentioned there was some shooter trigger jerking involved as well on that cold bore shot.  Also cold clean bore is much different than cold bore alone.  I've came a long way in my shooting since I shot that test target a year ago.
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Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What rifle do you shoot that you have a cold bore flier?


The same one that shot this 4 round group and also sits at 4th place on the moa all day challenge bolt action division.  Why only 4 rounds in this group?  Because it was the last 4 rounds I had after finishing the moa all day challenge.
http://s8.postimg.org/wg942giwl/IMG_0718.jpg

Like I mentioned there was some shooter trigger jerking involved as well on that cold bore shot.  Also cold clean bore is much different than cold bore alone.  I've came a long way in my shooting since I shot that test target a year ago.


I've seen some sharp guys note that the cold bore shot in many cases is more like a cold shooter shot. Meaning if you start with a different rifle it doesn't happen.

I shoot an AW, and it never changes POI.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 10:23:32 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


I've seen some sharp guys note that the cold bore shot in many cases is more like a cold shooter shot. Meaning if you start with a different rifle it doesn't happen.

I shoot an AW, and it never changes POI.
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What rifle do you shoot that you have a cold bore flier?


The same one that shot this 4 round group and also sits at 4th place on the moa all day challenge bolt action division.  Why only 4 rounds in this group?  Because it was the last 4 rounds I had after finishing the moa all day challenge.
http://s8.postimg.org/wg942giwl/IMG_0718.jpg

Like I mentioned there was some shooter trigger jerking involved as well on that cold bore shot.  Also cold clean bore is much different than cold bore alone.  I've came a long way in my shooting since I shot that test target a year ago.


I've seen some sharp guys note that the cold bore shot in many cases is more like a cold shooter shot. Meaning if you start with a different rifle it doesn't happen.

I shoot an AW, and it never changes POI.

Even during your fouling shots?  Because that's one magical rifle if it doesn't.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 10:25:28 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By fargo007:

Chasing the magical accuracy dragon is a trap that a lot of shooters fall into, and never come out of.  
View Quote


Absolutely true statement.
Link Posted: 1/1/2016 11:00:09 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:


I've seen some sharp guys note that the cold bore shot in many cases is more like a cold shooter shot. Meaning if you start with a different rifle it doesn't happen.

I shoot an AW, and it never changes POI.
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Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Originally Posted By lefty-weaver-g19:
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
What rifle do you shoot that you have a cold bore flier?


The same one that shot this 4 round group and also sits at 4th place on the moa all day challenge bolt action division.  Why only 4 rounds in this group?  Because it was the last 4 rounds I had after finishing the moa all day challenge.
http://s8.postimg.org/wg942giwl/IMG_0718.jpg

Like I mentioned there was some shooter trigger jerking involved as well on that cold bore shot.  Also cold clean bore is much different than cold bore alone.  I've came a long way in my shooting since I shot that test target a year ago.


I've seen some sharp guys note that the cold bore shot in many cases is more like a cold shooter shot. Meaning if you start with a different rifle it doesn't happen.

I shoot an AW, and it never changes POI.


Taking the time to dry fire a couple times helps a ton on the cold shooter issue, but still a clean cold bore after removing copper is a different animal.  I prefer to go in the field with a fouled bore if I'm concerned with making first round hits.  

Here is a video where I hit a clay pigeon with the cold bore shot from 331 yards I then followed it up with the 2nd shot of the day on a clay at 391 yards

I posted my results for people to see a tracking test.  I'm not perfect I miss once in a while
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