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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:04:34 PM EST
[#1]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: @Bazmancrash did that court ruling the other day help you? Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge https://www.reuters.com/legal/ban-guns-with-serial-numbers-removed-is-unconstitutional-us-judge-2022-10-13/ Red Would that help if it’s a circuit court ruling for a difficult district ( 4th vs 8th)? |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:28:18 PM EST
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: @Bazmancrash did that court ruling the other day help you? Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge https://www.reuters.com/legal/ban-guns-with-serial-numbers-removed-is-unconstitutional-us-judge-2022-10-13/ Red OP can't post from his jail cell. |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 12:34:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: PepePewPew]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By badredfish: @Bazmancrash did that court ruling the other day help you? Ban on guns with serial numbers removed is unconstitutional -U.S. judge https://www.reuters.com/legal/ban-guns-with-serial-numbers-removed-is-unconstitutional-us-judge-2022-10-13/ Red He could use it as a reference, but since he doesn't live in the Southern District of West Virginia it's not controlling precedent. But it's hard to argue that the law as applied to you isn't Constitutional when the law as written doesn't even apply to you. If Bruce Schroeder from the Rittenhouse trial was your judge, you could walk in without an attorney, say "that's NOT what the law says", the judge would pull out his law book, and three minutes later he would say "Dismissed. GTFO of here". |
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Posted: 10/14/2022 2:21:21 PM EST
[Last Edit: JCoop]
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperStormBryan: But when a detective shows up and tells you that they're going to recommend a felony charge to the DA, and tell you that to your face, its still serious business. ETA: Ha, just saw the date of the thread start... a little late! Hope OP is still walking around a free man. |
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FL, USA
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Posted: 10/14/2022 4:01:39 PM EST
[#5]
The fact that he said the serial number came up in a crime I would have started to laugh……..really? So you have the gun that was used In The crime? Wtf lol…….also why did you not tell him he ran the model number? This is weird.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/17/2022 7:43:30 AM EST
[#6]
Well I'm still free.
According to the DAs office they told me attorney this. We gathered here and are looking at an unusual amount of these cases so we are going to drop the charge because of the volume and it was siezed prior to the "federal loophole" closing in August, but you will not get your firearm back because if we have it back we'd have to charge you with the same crime. *My first response was isn't that double Jeopardy?* I assume the federal loophole they are referring to is the ATF 2021R-05F? https://www.atf.gov/rules-and-regulations/definition-frame-or-receiver I pulled this directly from the training document on that page and sent it back. This is becoming asanine. ********** Page 1 "The Final Rule does not: • Change the “part” of firearms previously classified as the “frame or receiver;” • Prohibit individuals from making firearms for personal use." And Page 9 The Final Rule does: • Amend 27 CFR 447.11 and 478.11 to define a firearm made by a nonlicensee without a serial number as a “Privately Made Firearm” (“PMF”); The Final Rule does not: • Prohibit an individual from making their own PMF; • Mandate unlicensed persons to mark their own PMF; ********** So I told my lawyer to tell them this. "You can tell them I want my property back and will provide proof to the court in 30 days it has been serialized (which I'm still not required to do (609.667 does not address "PMF"s and 609.667(3) is unconstitutional in nature and should be struck down) but to just appease these so called educated folk), or I'll see the Judge about it." |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 7:48:19 AM EST
[#7]
Some good news, some bad.
Good luck, OP. I hope you keep us posted. That's some bullshit. |
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NH, USA
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Posted: 10/17/2022 8:21:18 AM EST
[#8]
Well, it's a start. I hope you get your gun back.
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Posted: 10/17/2022 8:59:55 AM EST
[#9]
Not double jeopardy. Double jeopardy is when you have been declared innocent and they come after you again. Your charges probably have been dropped with prejudice which means they can come back after you if they change their minds. Note: IANAL
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Posted: 10/17/2022 9:36:15 AM EST
[#10]
The firearm can't be in two places at the same time...if there is another pistol with the same number STILL IN POLICE CUSTODY, it would be obvious that an error occurred somewhere. I wonder if the police or DA in the other jurisdiction ever realized that they recorded the model number, not the serial number.
A letter from the manufacturer stating that the police recorded the model number, not the serial number may be helpful. |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 9:41:18 AM EST
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Genin: A letter from the manufacturer stating that the police recorded the model number, not the serial number may be helpful. Not sure the court will give that letter much weight when the manufacturer is also the accused. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/17/2022 9:53:59 AM EST
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Genin: The firearm can't be in two places at the same time...if there is another pistol with the same number STILL IN POLICE CUSTODY, it would be obvious that an error occurred somewhere. I wonder if the police or DA in the other jurisdiction ever realized that they recorded the model number, not the serial number. A letter from the manufacturer stating that the police recorded the model number, not the serial number may be helpful. It's on a audio recording, I asked him if he ran PF940CL as a S/N and he said yes. I then told him that was the model #. |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 9:59:39 AM EST
[#13]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By shortround: Your charges probably have been dropped with prejudice which means they can come back after you if they change their minds. Note: IANAL |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 12:24:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: PepePewPew]
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: "Dismissed with prejudice" would mean the prosecutor cannot take further action on that case with that court (so it would be good for the defendant). If he voluntarily dismisses it, it's without prejudice unless the judge says otherwise. Motion the judge to say otherwise. PS. Fuck Thieves. ETA: OP's now in the position of Dominick Black. He can let ADA Binger take a bullshit $1200 fine (or a P80 build) or he can pay an attorney several times what the prosecutor wants to steal from him and risk going to prison, or he can choose the COC behind door #3. Needless to say, everybody chooses door #1. But I've long wondered what they'd do if a cancer patient chose door #3. |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 1:42:44 PM EST
[#15]
I'd get it dismissed with prejudice, then fight for your property after they lose the capacity to make you fight for your freedom.
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/17/2022 6:30:51 PM EST
[#16]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By PepePewPew: If he voluntarily dismisses it, it's without prejudice unless the judge says otherwise. Motion the judge to say otherwise. PS. Fuck Thieves. ETA: OP's now in the position of Dominick Black. He can let ADA Binger take a bullshit $1200 fine (or a P80 build) or he can pay an attorney several times what the prosecutor wants to steal from him and risk going to prison, or he can choose the COC behind door #3. Needless to say, everybody chooses door #1. But I've long wondered what they'd do if a cancer patient chose door #3. What's COC? Condition of consequences? |
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Posted: 10/17/2022 6:39:07 PM EST
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: What's COC? Condition of consequences? |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 10/17/2022 7:38:23 PM EST
[#18]
So am I basically fucked.
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Posted: 10/17/2022 8:54:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: badredfish]
[#19]
No you need to start handing out lawsuits - everyone get a lawsuit!!
Red Ps. Did you see my post above?? ETA - these people did not do their job right and you suffered for it....you need to be paid... You hired a lawyer - time for him to be earning his keep. |
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Posted: 10/18/2022 6:15:40 AM EST
[#20]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: What's COC? Condition of consequences? I assumed it meant ARFcom COC as in do something illegal to get even. Not that I am recommending that, just answering question. Depending how much you already have spent on Lawyers OP, if not too much I would probably walk away from this. If you're already heavily invested then might as well stick with it till the end. |
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Posted: 10/22/2022 4:05:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: PepePewPew]
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AR_Dale: I assumed it meant ARFcom COC as in do something illegal to get even. Not that I am recommending that, just answering question. Depending how much you already have spent on Lawyers OP, if not too much I would probably walk away from this. If you're already heavily invested then might as well stick with it till the end. Yes. It's a choice. It's not a good choice, not a choice I'd recommend to anybody, but it's one of several bad options available to somebody faced with unindictable criminals working as prosecutors. It's a lose/lose situation. In OP's shoes, I'd take the dismissal, make sure the judge records it as 'with prejudice', and then 30 seconds later sue the crooks to get my gun back. |
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MO, USA
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Posted: 10/22/2022 4:19:40 PM EST
[#22]
The running under Bruen makes this patently clear.
Go after em, don't stop. |
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Posted: 10/24/2022 2:53:37 PM EST
[#23]
Following this, and good luck.
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Posted: 10/25/2022 9:16:18 AM EST
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By jos51700: The running under Bruen makes this patently clear. Go after em, don't stop. This. 100% this. Make them pay. Loss of income, mental anguish, false arrest, legal fees paid, PTSD. Feel free to add onto the list. Get every penny you can from those bastards. Maybe they'll think twice before they pull this shit again if they lose enough of the states money. |
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Posted: 10/25/2022 10:08:14 AM EST
[Last Edit: AeroE]
[#25]
I should have read the entire thread first, in any case I'll leave this -
Minnesota 609.667 FIREARMS; REMOVAL OR ALTERATION OF SERIAL NUMBER.Whoever commits any of the following acts may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than five years or to payment of a fine of not more than $10,000, or both: (1) obliterates, removes, changes, or alters the serial number or other identification of a firearm; (2) receives or possesses a firearm, the serial number or other identification of which has been obliterated, removed, changed, or altered; or (3) receives or possesses a firearm that is not identified by a serial number. As used in this section, "serial number or other identification" means the serial number and other information required under United States Code, title 26, section 5842, for the identification of firearms. 26 U.S. Code 5842 - Identification of firearms (a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. (b)Firearms without serial number Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. (c)Identification of destructive device Any firearm classified as a destructive device shall be identified in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. U.S. Code Title 26 Subtitle E CHAPTER 53 Subchapter B PART I 5842 26 U.S. Code 5842 - Identification of firearms (a)Identification of firearms other than destructive devices Each manufacturer and importer and anyone making a firearm shall identify each firearm, other than a destructive device, manufactured, imported, or made by a serial number which may not be readily removed, obliterated, or altered, the name of the manufacturer, importer, or maker, and such other identification as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. (b)Firearms without serial number Any person who possesses a firearm, other than a destructive device, which does not bear the serial number and other information required by subsection (a) of this section shall identify the firearm with a serial number assigned by the Secretary and any other information the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. (c)Identification of destructive device Any firearm classified as a destructive device shall be identified in such manner as the Secretary may by regulations prescribe. Read through this regulation. I can't find a mention of home made or home built firearms on my phone - 18 U.S. Code Chapter 44 - FIREARMS Good luck, and I hope you get a chance to rake a prosecutor and police department over the coals. A couple of passes. |
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Posted: 10/27/2022 9:51:41 PM EST
[#26]
Most people would say, "thank God they dropped the charges. Fuck that gun, at least I'm not in jail!" They'd cut their losses and move on for fear of pissing off the cops. Big respect to you for not doing that. They stole your shit and you have every right to fight for it back!
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2022 8:26:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: Bazmancrash]
[#27]
UPDATE: Dismissed.... "In the interest of Justice". Is what my paperwork's says. All said I've lost faith in any government or public employee.... Packing up and moving from MN. I appreciate all the help. I'll update with my legal brief once court is settled.
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Posted: 11/1/2022 8:28:15 PM EST
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: UPDATE: Dismissed.... "In the interest of Justice". Is what my paperwork's says. All said I've lost faith in any government or public employee.... Packing up and moving from MN. I appreciate all the help. I'll update with my legal breif once court is settled.  Are you going to try to recoup lawyer fees? |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2022 8:48:30 PM EST
[#29]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BLKVooDoo: Are you going to try to recoup lawyer fees? Through this channel and one other someone has reached out to help recoup that and possibly do some damage. Like I said time to move. Call me crazy but I think someone I know on the force, my interrogating detective, who I've had run ins outside of his capacity and on my own terms in the past (him being out of line late at night on family property) was pushing for the charge. He may not remember but I do. Just going to play it out see where things go. |
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Posted: 11/1/2022 9:00:58 PM EST
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: Through this channel and one other someone has reached out to help recoup that and possibly do some damage. Like I said time to move. Call me crazy but I think someone I know on the force, my interrogating detective, who I've had run ins outside of his capacity and on my own terms in the past (him being out of line late at night on family property) was pushing for the charge. He may not remember but I do. Just going to play it out see where things go. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: Originally Posted By BLKVooDoo: Are you going to try to recoup lawyer fees? Through this channel and one other someone has reached out to help recoup that and possibly do some damage. Like I said time to move. Call me crazy but I think someone I know on the force, my interrogating detective, who I've had run ins outside of his capacity and on my own terms in the past (him being out of line late at night on family property) was pushing for the charge. He may not remember but I do. Just going to play it out see where things go. Good. glad you have a plan. Are they giving you the pistol back without much hassle? |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/1/2022 9:38:01 PM EST
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By BLKVooDoo: Good. glad you have a plan. Are they giving you the pistol back without much hassle? Nope. I even tried to low ball asking for my holster, mags, slide and x300 back and that isn't going anywhere I believe. |
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Posted: 11/1/2022 9:58:13 PM EST
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By SuperStormBryan: title 26, section 5842, is in regards to a licensed manufactured of firearms. https://www.govregs.com/uscode/expand/title26_subtitleE_chapter53_subchapterB_partI_section5842#uscode_1 https://www.reuters.com/legal/ban-guns-with-serial-numbers-removed-is-unconstitutional-us-judge-2022-10-13/ |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 11/2/2022 6:01:14 AM EST
[#33]
Someone else here in MN said the Judge offered him 30 days and a drop to a gross misdemeanor.... He's fighting it. Is the legal system this out of control in this country?
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Posted: 11/2/2022 7:13:35 AM EST
[Last Edit: Bigger_Hammer]
[#34]
Sorry to be missing the middle of this epic battle thread.
did you Reach out to Gun Owners of America and / or Firearms Policy Coalition on this? Really sounds like a textbook case to stuff it up their ass & break it off over the gross abuse of your 2nd Amendment rights. Glad that charges against you are "dropped" (for now) and Best Wishes in Recovering your Property. Bigger_Hammer 
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Posted: 11/2/2022 7:31:31 AM EST
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: UPDATE: Dismissed.... "In the interest of Justice". Is what my paperwork's says. All said I've lost faith in any government or public employee.... Packing up and moving from MN. I appreciate all the help. I'll update with my legal brief once court is settled.  |
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Posted: 11/2/2022 7:54:16 AM EST
[Last Edit: Intune]
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bigger_Hammer: Sorry to be missing the middle of this epic battle thread. did you Reach out to Gun Owners of America and / or Firearms Policy Coalition on this? Really sounds like a textbook case to stuff it up their ass & break it off over the gross abuse of your 2nd Amendment rights. Glad that charges against you are "dropped" (for now) and Best Wishes in Recovering your Property. Bigger_Hammer I would definitely be trying to cause them legal pain. |
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NM, USA
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Posted: 11/2/2022 4:36:41 PM EST
[#37]
Whelp, there's not a whole lot to be said in public on this.
Sounds like they are armed thieves. Similar to arresting someone and charging them with resisting arrest, without an underlying crime justifying the arrest. Eventually the armed thieves pick the wrong guy. |
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Posted: 11/3/2022 8:59:24 AM EST
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Intune: I would definitely be trying to cause them legal, career, and financial pain. FIFY. |
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Posted: 12/24/2022 12:13:11 PM EST
[#39]
Is OP getting his gun back in time for Christmas?
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Posted: 12/24/2022 12:31:27 PM EST
[#40]
OP, what was the cop's reason for pulling you over in the first place?
(Sorry if it's within the 4 pages, I scanned as best that I could) |
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Posted: 12/24/2022 12:44:16 PM EST
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bazmancrash: Nope. I even tried to low ball asking for my holster, mags, slide and x300 back and that isn't going anywhere I believe. That’s some BS |
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Posted: 12/25/2022 1:29:40 PM EST
[#42]
man I just found this thread.
I live in Minnesota. there are a lot of retarded cops in this state that don't know the law. A lot of them are Fudds. There are some good ones though. My recommendation is that you sue the living fuck out of that police / sherrifs department for harassment and for stripping you of your rights. If you don't they will just continue being retarded to the next poor victim |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 2/3/2023 9:07:01 PM EST
[#43]
older thread but i figured id chime in.
i reached out to MN branch of the ATF months ago inquiring about serializing “PMFs” and was told they would send the question to the appropriate person. 2 or 3 follow ups and months later with no answer. |
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Posted: 2/3/2023 10:22:03 PM EST
[#44]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By gundealsbrowser: i reached out to MN branch of the ATF months ago inquiring about serializing "PMFs" and was told they would send the question to the appropriate person. 2 or 3 follow ups and months later with no answer. If you want to register a PMF during the 120 day tax deferment period, you'll need to engrave all the markings that are normally required of Title I & II firearms. Model is optional but you'll need serial, caliber, maker and city, state. |
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OK, USA
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Posted: 2/3/2023 10:36:52 PM EST
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Ryan_Scott: Ok now that I'm paying more attention lol. Some dipshit cop in Florida put the model number in as the serial and so did this guy. You might need a lawyer. In order to have any kind of number, to enter as a serial number, right or wrong, they would have to HAVE the weapon to get a number from. So now they have a spare. |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 2/7/2023 11:11:05 AM EST
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By KitBuilder: What is your question? If you want to register a PMF during the 120 day tax deferment period, you'll need to engrave all the markings that are normally required of Title I & II firearms. Model is optional but you'll need serial, caliber, maker and city, state. whether or not “PMF”s like p80s, 3d printed lowers etc need to be serialized, either federally or by state law. it seems federally its not needed, but based on OPs experience MN state law isnt clear? |
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MN, USA
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Posted: 2/8/2023 5:27:18 PM EST
[#47]
well the local ATF field office finally called, they said no need to serialize according to federal law, but could not comment on state law. They referred me to the MN BCA for that.
talked to Katie Booth at the BCA (bureau of criminal apprehension) and she said she has no idea and has no clue who can help answer my question. doesnt seem like it should be this hard to get an answer. |
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Posted: 2/27/2023 9:18:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: Everrest]
[#48]
deleted
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Posted: 2/27/2023 9:48:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: Everrest]
[#49]
deleted
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Posted: 2/27/2023 9:57:45 AM EST
[#50]
Im confused as to why the last couple posts are in a P80 legal thread?
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