and if you don't think it does then tell me exactly what day, week or month it does and why.

I've thought a lot about this too and I always end up at conception.

Where life begins isn't the question...it never really has been.  It's when the fetus becomes a sentient human being that is the question.
I don't know that there is a real answer at this point, especially since we can't even define sentience in a meaningful way or say what causes it.
Personally, I would rather err on the side of caution, which is why I would never encourage anyone to have an abortion unless the life of the mother was threatened.
If you put a gun to my head and forced me to take a guess, though, I would say that the fetus becomes a sentient human being at 8 weeks, when electrical activity begins in its brain.

Exactly. If it didn't a woman would not need an abortion to eliminate the child!

RikWriter - "8 weeks when electrical activity begins in the brain"

Maybe the "activity" is there at conception but but the instruments used aren't sensitive enough to detect it. After all we don't "see" all the different colors of the light spectrum.

Maybe.  All I can say is that we consider an adult human brain dead when their brain activity doesn't show up on an EEG and it's considered legal to take them off life-support if the family desires.
At any rate, as I said I don't think we have the knowledge to make the call exactly at this point.

When men can become pregnant, they will earn the right to decide about abortion.
Until then, it is a woman's issue.
If more men were responsible husbands, fathers, and providers, very few abortions would take place.

Perhaps most of us will agree that life has started when partial-birth abortions are performed.

So far as religion I'm an Agnostic but even an Agnostic can recognize murder.

You are right, no abortion has ever been preformed for convenience.[rolleyes]

When women are able to produce sperm and practice self-impregnation then it will be solely a woman's decision.

(No flame intended.)

And I'll add, where was the women's responsibility when she decided to have sex with such man?

Hannah-- tell me why a man has no say so when it comes to an abortion. If a woman chooses not to kill her baby the man in the relationship is financially responsible in the form of child support payments. But on the other hand a woman can kill that same baby without consulting the father. Who the hell do you think you are?

That is not as far away as you might imagine, given the recent advances in cloning.

5subslr5: Ahh, but it easier to find a sperm donor than a uterus for rent, isn't it? (No flame taken, thanks)

Ar10er: Where was *either* partner's responsibility when they decided to have sex?

Women bear the brunt of the pregnancy and upbringing of the offspring when they are single.
Very few married  and well supported women get abortions, I would guess.

The solution?
Perhaps don't have sex till both are married and settled enough to raise a child.

[b]When does the heart begin to beat?[/b]
At 18 days [when the mother is only four days late for her first menstrual period], and by 21 days it is pumping, through a closed circulatory system, blood whose type is different from that of the mother.


[b]When is the brain functioning?[/b]
Brain waves have been recorded at 40 days on the Electroencephalogram (EEG).


[b]When does the developing baby first move?[/b]
"In the sixth to seventh weeks. . . . If the area of the lips is gently stroked, the child responds by bending the upper body to one side and making a quick backward motion with his arms. This is called a ‘total pattern response’ because it involves most of the body, rather than a local part."
At eight weeks, "if we tickle the baby’s nose, he will flex his head backwards away from the stimulus."

[b]When are all his body systems present?[/b]
By eight weeks.


[b]How about nine weeks?[/b]
At nine to ten weeks, he squints, swallows, moves his tongue, and if you stroke his palm, will make a tight fist.
By nine weeks he will "bend his fingers round an object in the palm of his hand."

[b]When does he start to breathe?[/b]
"By 11 to 12 weeks (3 months), he is breathing fluid steadily and continues so until birth. At birth, he will breathe air. He does not drown by breathing fluid within his mother, because he obtains his oxygen from his umbilical cord. This breathing develops the organs of respiration."

[b]Can he cry?[/b]
Although the watery environment in which he lives presents small opportunity for crying, which does require air, the unborn knows how to cry, and given a chance to do so, he will. A doctor

". . . injected an air bubble into the baby’s amniotic sac and then took x-rays. It so happened that the air bubble covered the baby’s face. The whole procedure had no doubt given the little fellow quite a bit of jostling about, and the moment that he had air to inhale and exhale they heard the clear sound of a protesting wail emitting from the uterus. Late that same night, the mother awakened her doctor with a telephone call, to report that when she lay down to sleep the air bubble got over the baby’s head again, and he was crying so loudly he was keeping both her and her husband awake. The doctor advised her to prop herself upright with pillows so that the air could not reach the baby’s head, which was by now in the lower part of the uterus."

[b]Does the unborn baby dream?[/b]
Using ultrasound techniques, it was first shown that REM (rapid eye movements) which are characteristic of active dream states have been demonstrated at 23 weeks.
REM have since been recorded 17 weeks after conception.

[b]Does he/she think?[/b]
We now know that the unborn child is an aware, reacting human being who from the sixth month on (and perhaps earlier) leads an active emotional life.
The fetus can, on a primitive level, even learn in utero.

[b]Can he/she feel pain?[/b]
Yes, by the 8th week and perhaps earlier. By this age the neuroanatomic structures are present. What is needed is (1) a sensory nerve to feel the pain and send a message to (2) the thalamus, a part of the base of the brain, and (3) motor nerves that send a message to that area. These are present by 8 weeks. Without doubt a abortion is a dreadfully painful experience for any infant.


[b]What of The Silent Scream?[/b]
A Realtime ultrasound video tape and movie of a 12-week suction abortion is commercially available as, The Silent Scream, narrated by Dr. B. Nathanson, a former abortionist. It dramatically, but factually, shows the pre-born baby dodging the suction instrument time after time, while its heartbeat doubles in rate. When finally caught, its body being dismembered, the baby’s mouth clearly opens wide — hence, the title (available from American Portrait Films, P.O. Box 19266, Cleveland, OH 44119, 216-531-8600).

What a Fucking Ignorant, Irrational, DimWitted, Brainless, Bullshit answer!!

If I thought you had ANY mental capacity beyond a five-year old I'd engage you in a logical discourse.

Obviously you've put NO INTELLIGENT thought into that dipshit answer so you get NO INTELLIGENT response.

Mac,
I wish you wouldn't disguise your true feelings so much as it is very difficult to ascertain your feelings and position on this matter when you choose to use subterfuge !

In the last 100 years what three groups did away with the laws that protected unborn children?
1. The Soviet and Chinese Communists
2. Nazi Germany
3. American Democratic party

In the last 100 years what three groups were the strongest advocates of gun confiscation?
1. The Soviet and Chinese Communists
2. Nazi Germany
3. American Democratic party

Any questions?

"We are a people that believe in basic rights. We believe in self government by consent. That didn't just happen. It happened on the basis of certain principles. And those principles state very clearly that the basis of human rights is not human will or choice but God's will, the Creator's will.
That means that if we reject that principle we are destroying the essence of our whole way of life. And that is what is involved in abortion when we assert that a human choice, the choice of the mother, determines the childs right to life. That cannot be true in light of our American principles."
Alan Keyes


or as C.S. Lewis put it,
"The very idea of freedom presupposes some objective moral law which overarches rulers and ruled alike. Subjectivism about values is eternally incompatible with democracy. We and our rulers are of one kind only so long as we are subject to one law. But if there is no Law of Nature, the ethos of any society is the creation of its rulers, educators and conditioners; and every creator stands above and outside his own creation."

------------------------------------------------

No disagreement here.
I believe we cloned a human in 1992 so this may very well be fact now.

Belloc,
I'm familiar with the actions of the Dimocrats and the Chinese but not the Nazis with regards to the unborn ??

60 years ago...
"When Americans become Germans, then they will earn the right to decide about us aborting the Jewish population. Until then, it is a German issue."

Hmm, nope, doesn't quite work.

Of course the founder of "Planned Parenthood" was a Nazi so no one should be suprised.
[url]http://www.sounddoctrine.com/ptimes/sanger.htm[/url]

Ever wonder why the feminazis don't use Susan B. Anthony, the woman who played one of the largest roles in the advocation of women's rights, in their literature? She was pro-life.

Oh please. Abortion is now the man's fault? Maybe if more women kept their damn legs closed instead of spreading for any guy who catches their fancy there wouldn't [b]need[/b] to be so many abortions. And, to be honest, if more guys kept it in their pants we wouldn't have as many abortions either. But, just remember, outside of rape women don't have to get pregnant if they don't want to - every pregnancy occurs because a woman said "yes", not because a man asked for sex.

You want the decision to abort to be your choice and yours alone? Fine. I want the decision to pay child support to be [b]mine[/b] and mine alone. We both can play the "not facing the consequences of my actions" game.

Who care when life starts, we all eat meat...  Brain waves and reflexes don't mean squat, the cow you ate for lunch had those too.  The question is when does it become a human...  I say it is a human when it can survive outside a woman's body.

I have a lot of sympathy for women in this situation.  So many men seem to blame woman for something that took two people.  How is it solely the woman's fault she got pregnant.  No one gets an abortion because they think it is fun.  There is a lot of wisdom to what someone already said here.  I think more responsible fathers would mean fewer abortions.  It seems like very often getting knocked up by a loser and keeping the baby will doom you to poverty for the rest of your life.  I don't like abortions, but banning them is like banning guns to stop violence.  The social problem needs to be addressed instead of making lame laws which solve nothing...

How do you tell when the baby would be able to survive outside of the womb?

Quite possibly the sickest analogy I've ever heard.



That being the case, why is it solely the woman's decision to abort the pregnancy?



And more responsible women would mean fewer abortions.  It's a two-way street, my friend.  You admitted as much in your post.



If a woman decides to sleep with a "loser", I have absolutely no sympathy for her.  As for living in poverty, well, no worries.  Those of us who pay our taxes do so to make sure women who sleep with losers have a subsidized roof over their heads and can continue pursuing their recreational activities.  [rolleyes]



Ah yes, equate abortion to gun ownership.  To carry that line of thought a little further:  Which amendment is it that specifies the right to terminate a pregnancy?  I seem to have missed that one.  And, some abortions are paid for by taxpayers (Planned Parenthood of Colorado had their state funding cut because they were trying to be sneaky about it).  Well, I want my taxpayer subsidized firearms now, thank you.  I'll send my wish list.

[b]Even the FemiNazi National Anthem glorifies the embryo:[/b]


[i]I am woman, hear me roar
In numbers too big to ignore
And I know too much
To go back an' pretend
'Cause I've heard it all before
And I've been down there on the floor
No one's ever gonna
Keep me down again

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to, I can do anything
I am strong
I am invincible
I am woman

You can bend but never break me
'Cause it only serves to make me
More determined
To achieve my final goal
And I come back even stronger
Not a novice any longer
'Cause you've deepened
The conviction in my soul

I am woman watch me grow
See me standing toe to toe
As I spread my lovin' arms
Across the land
[b]But I'm still an [red]embryo[/red]
With a long long way to go[/b]
Until I make my
Brother understand

Oh yes I am wise
But it's wisdom born of pain
Yes, I've paid the price
But look how much I gained
If I have to
I can face anything
I am strong
I am invincible
I am woman
Oh, I am woman
I am invincible
I am strong[/i]



[b]That's one bastard embryo that SHOULD have been aborted.[/b]

Quoted:
[b]Who care when life starts,[/b]
A great many people "care" when life starts. You should be one of them.

[b]Brain waves and reflexes don't mean squat,[/b]
How very "medical" of you.

[b]the cow you ate for lunch had those too.[/b]
I had fish. In any event neither the cow nor the fish were by their very DNA considered of the human species.

[b]The question is when does it become a human.[/b]
Well we know it is alive. And we know it is human, that's is not a cow or a fish, seems to be rather "self-evident".

[b]I say it is a human when it can survive outside a woman's body.[/b]
I say you have not given this even a little thought. So, an unborn child of 40 years ago was not human in the 7 month because technology was not able to keep the child alive outside the womb? Actually, on second thought, in a few short years technology will be able to sustain the fetus (latin for child) from the moment of conception so by your logic, and in our lifetimes, the unborn child will HAVE to be recognized as human from the moment of conception because we will have all the gizmos that enable the child to survive outside teh womb. Great! Pro-life 21st century here we come!


[b]How is it solely the woman's fault she got pregnant.[/b]
It takes 2 to tango but one to say no.

[b]I think more responsible fathers would mean fewer abortions.[/b]
But if the percentage of responsible fathers increased ten thousand percent it would not change the fact that that the most sure way to achieve fewer abortions is for women to say no.


[b]It seems like very often getting knocked up by a loser and keeping the baby will doom you to poverty for the rest of your life.[/b]
Well perhaps the best solution would be to not sleep with a loser. Really, is it all that hard?

[b]I don't like abortions, but banning them is like banning guns to stop violence.[/b]
No. It is nothing like this.

[b]The social problem needs to be addressed instead of making lame laws which solve nothing...[/b]
Bullshit. There were FAR fewer abortions before 1973. And the feminazis argued that if they were given the "right" to tear children from their wombs that poverty, divorce, child abuse, spousal abuse, ect. would all decrease. In fact they all took off like a rocket after Roe v. Wade.

I'm Pro-Choice. If a woman makes a CHOICE to have sex, then she must be ready to deal with the possibility of pregnancy.
If a woman makes a CHOICE to not have sex, then she doesn't have to worry about getting pregnant.

As for the AFTER CONCEPTION choice, well, there is none. The woman made a CHOICE when she had sex.

Sorry women, but God gave you the ability to bear children, and he gave you a brain. If you make a CHOICE not to use your brain, then it is YOUR responsibility to deal with the results.

Sorry Guys, but the same arguement above applies to us, except for the ability to give birth.
If you get a woman pregnant, support the child (not necessarily the woman).

Good question.

IMO,

Let's start at what we know. The sperm cell and egg cell are alive. When they come together, they are alive, and, if nothing goes wrong, will produce a baby in 9 months give or take a few weeks.

Now, I think the real question is when is it a life with rights of its own that trump the rights of the person carrying it. Again, at the extremes, after the egg and sperm just come together and for that brief time you have just one cell? No, I don't believe so. At the other end, say a week or so before it is to be born? Absolutely. So where in between can we find the balance point of rights? 20 cells? 200 Billion?
I will go with what most people decide, which is the beginning of the third trimester.

On another note:

I escorted women seeking abortions at Planned Parenthood for many years. Most were not on welfare. None were for convenience. Most were as soon as she realized she was pregnant. I didn't see one "slut" or "whore". I did see alot of scared women, some affluent, some poor, some with boyfriends, some without, some older, some younger, some with families, and yes, even some who the month before were on the other side protesting. So to make one group of women your arguement for banning abortion is simply ignorance or lack of compassion.

-legrue

It didnt take long for a woman to hop in hear and blame it all on the men.  Ohhh wait, I forgot!  Woman arent responsible for their actions and sex is a one sided activity were the woman just ends up pregnant.  GIVE ME A FRICKEN BREAK!!!!  Your statement is by far the stupidest I have heard all week!

Mob rule is not a very wise way to determine this.


Unless their life was in immediate danger, they were ALL doing it for convenience.

They were just in DEEP denial - as are you.

If I were King, and it's a damn good thing I'm not, I would allow abortions to be performed as they are today as a method of birth control but with new rules. After the abortion, the mother must be aborted. Then, go and abort the father. If he's not around, go find him. Next, I'd move on to public hangings at Noon in Johnson Square on Fridays for convicted murders and other such offenders.

You have my vote!

Never thought I'd get one vote. Thanks.

Make sure the beer is cold!

[beer]

Hail BigT, King of our domain [:)]

Next, I'd move on to [red]public hangings at Noon in Johnson Square on Fridays[/red] for convicted murders and other such offenders.[/quote]
Make sure the beer is cold!

[beer]
[/quote]

Well, there are a lot of people in Johnson Square Fridays at noon because it's their lunch hour and that's where people who work downtown go to enjoy their little break. Consumption of cold beer during that time might cause someone to loose their job and I wouldn't want to be responsible for that. I'll save the cold beer for the Saturday Night wuppins of lessor offenders.

Who are these most people? Most abortionists maybe.

So would you say it's ok to abort a day before the third trimester?



So every one of them was in a "kill the baby or the mom dies" situation?



Sounds like convenience to me.


So do you pro-baby-death folks have any arguments better than "it's not a person so it doesn't matter"?

Good point.  When women become as strong as men, they will earn the right to be front line soldiers, police officers, and fire fighters.

I bet your panties just tied themselves in a knot, didn't they?  "But that's different!"

wanna bet ??

Someone pu-leez abort this thread.  It's not showing any brainwaves, and I therefore declare it dead. [rolleyes]

That just goes to show [b]legrue[/b] doesn't have a CLUE as to what he's talking about.

The "trimester" demarcations are entirely arbitrary and can vary by several days to several weeks of development from fetus to fetus.

To say that one will use the number of "calendar days" to determine fetal viability proves that person doesn't know the first thing about human physiology or fetal development.

But he might make a good yet ignorant abortion-promoting chauffeur for other good yet ignorant abortion-demanding pregnant dingbats.



Must be.


That's because they were ALL for convenience.

What we have here is the train conductor heading to Auschwitz saying all those subhumans in the back weren't fully "human" because otherwise they wouldn't be on the train.

In other words: DENIAL!!


No. They have NO viable argument. [i](that's why Hannah simply posted that dingbat response of hers)[/i]

I've heard them ALL for many years.

They all boil down to one of these:

1) "It's not a human." (i.e. "I don't know human biology.")
2) "It's the mother's choice." (i.e. "I still don't know human biology.")
3) "It's been upheld by the SCOTUS so it's the law of the land." (i.e. "SCOTUS is like the Pope; I
can't think for myself; and I've never heard of Dred Scott either.")
4) "What will we do with the new blackmarket-abortions if legalized-abortion is banned?" (i.e.
"I admit it - I'm simply afraid to enforce laws against murder.")
5) "It can't support it's own life or even make it's own decisions." (i.e. "so it's okay to kill it along with all bedridden comatose patients too.")

Again, if there's ANY other defense on the "pro-choice" side that has any REAL merit - I'd be glad to hear it.

BS!  It is [b]both[/b] parents responsibility.  Your second statement is also pure crap.  They made their [b]choice[/b] before they got pregnant.

Baby is translated from the Greek word, "anthropos," which literally means man or
human being.

But it is still not murder?

It's not a baby until it's outside of the womb. Just a hunk of flesh, like the fat from liposuction.

... A thorny topic indeed.

Why just the other day the boy wanted to go to the concert and I said "No, you didn't complete your chores or homework" Just as angry he said "You can't make me stay home".

... I said "Look, I'm pro-choice. I can abort you up until you're 18 years old"

Mac and Al,

As far as this one goes, I've had it with the both of you. I post an opinion in response to an honest question, and you two can't wait to flame me (or anyone else who doesn't fit in with your opinion), while stroking each other all the while.

I especially appreciate how you, Mac, seem to have a bead on what I KNOW and DON'T know. Bullshit. You know nothing about me or my experiences, so quit posting like you do. If you believe differently, then post as such and leave it at that. God didn't give you a special bead on when life begins, what is moral, or any such thing. You're just another schmoo like everyone else who is trying to figure out the best thing to do. Unfortunately, you lost track of that fact and now your pronouncements have the definite sound of being from on high. Sorry, but I don't recognize your moral high ground.

If you bother to read my posts in their entirety, I always say what is my opinion. At least have the same intellectual integrity. Like I told another poster, if you want to discuss like grown-ups, fine, lets discuss. Otherwise, don't even bother to respond to me anymore.

"Boo hoo quit picking on me. "

Why don't you address the arguments instead of taking them as a personal attack?