I was asked to give three reason why the Democrats aren't to be despised.

1) Economy: The leading Democratic Presidential Candidates (Gephardt, Dean)are the only ones who seem to give a damn about our country's economy. Good 'ol Dubya sure as hell doesn't. In addition, as much as we hate Clinton we must admit that he had the economy in tip-top shape

2) Social Security: Republicans are spending your Social Security money on tax breaks for special interests, and have a plan to cut your benefits and raise the retirement age with a risky privatization scheme. Democrats created Social Security and will fight to protect it.

3) HealthCare: We're the only cmajor country in the world where healthcare isn't entitled to the average citizen. Democrats are fighting to change that. Republicans are fighting to protect the big drug companies.

And what the hell....

*Bonus* This is not an attribute, it's an accusation to the Republicans

4) The Bush Administration has broken their promise on education by making 28 education cuts totaling more than $1 billion, including technology training and after-school classes.

Bring it, baby [8D]

I believe the market, and supply and demand drive the economy. Whomever is president has no control of the market. What did Clinton do to keep the market in tip top shape? Most socialized health care systems in other countries are a bureaucratic nightmare. Look at the waiting lists in Canada and Britain for simple procedures that we could schedule to get done in a week here. If you want leftist socialism that's your right. But I don't want it. I think you just like to start flame wars.

1.  The economy.  I am very encouraged by the fact you didn't attribute the 1990's boom to Clinton or the present recession to Bush.  This shows you're not irredeemably stupid, nobody at DU would have gotten this far.

Ok, we have heard that Gephardt and Dean "care" more about the economy.  This reminds me of something H.R. Clinton said during her senate campaign, that she deserved to be senator because she "cared" more about the issues.

As if the emotional strength of caring about the issues even matters, let alone the chief qualifier to judge candidates.  "I care a lot!" "Oh yeah?  I care even more!"  But anyway, Gephardt and Dean care so much, what are their ideas?  Policies?  See, you kind of left those out buffalo-soldier, so I'll have to work with what I know about Gephardt, since Dean is kind of an unknown.

Gephardt on economic issues stands on two pillars:  Organized labor and trade restrictions.  More than anyone in government, he epitomizes these two issues.

What year is this?  1936?  What are the world wide trends on trade? Towards or away from trade restrictions?  The power of unions, going up or down?  Should we turn back the clock to the 1950's?  The reality is, that's not going to happen.  The Canadians struck down our tariffs on their lumber imports through the WTO.  If we want to play ball in the modern global economy, the trend will be REDUCTION of tariffs and other trade barriers, not towards them.  Gephardt is painfully out of touch with this because of the politics and interest groups that backed his political career.

Did you know this fool actually advocated a minimum wage for workers in OTHER COUNTRIES?  Let that soak in a little bit about the mind behind that proposal.

Meanwhile, what is Bush doing?  I seem to recall something in the headlines aboiut his reducing taxes which go into effect immediately.  Compare that with his father who raised taxes during a recession in an attempt to comprimise with Congress Democrats.

Bush has pushed for those lumber and steel tariffs which were dumb, dumb, dumb, but it pales in comparison to Gephardt's "ideas".

I'm gonna raise the white flag, Raven. You know more about the issues than I do, and I'm not afraid to admit it. Until I learn more and can find a good refutation...you win

[shock]


Sorry, usually when I talk to democrats on the internet they just ban me.

You couldn't be more wrong on the first part- every decision the President makes effects the economy....and the second part- I was just trying to start an entertaining conversation/debate, not a flame war. No hard feelings on either side.

Who said I was a Democrat?

4 years ago I had a job, now I don't

thats enough for me

Sorry if I was out of line thinking you were a Democrat just because you were advocating Democrats over Republicans.  I should have known better.

well thesac, what can we say?  thats a real pisser, really is, my father in law just lost his job after 15 yrs on.  probably to hire someone younger, pay them less, and make their bottom line look better.  crying about it doesnt help a damn thing does it?  people still want goods and services and thus there are jobs available, go find them.  the economy is cyclical, always has been and always will be.

my father in law is looking like he'll get a job at valero now, better pay, better benefits, try and use this to take a step up the ladder, not to step off the ladder.

and buffalo..........if you're not a democrat then your ass needs to go to hollywood right now because you're the best damned actor ever.  why dont i like the democrats?  because their sole theme seems to be that they can run my life better than i can do it on my own and on that i call BS.  and i dont know how anyone who enjoys the freedom of these United States can in good concious vote for a class of politicians that think the Constitution is a "living document."  i'd rather have a chance at failing and at the same time a chance at suceeding rather than no chance at either.

Just call me "Oscar"  [;)]

damn, i had a quoteable line in that last one, im just tickled shitless with myself.........[:D]

I haven't been around for awhile. This new guy, is he some sort of troll?

Well, Buffalo soldier (I'll just call you BS for short), none of the things you mentioned are called for or allowed in the constitution. So that's one nail in your meager argument.

1. Gapehart's big plan is to take the bush tax cut, and then some, and filter it back through corporations for health care. Yeah, that will work. Plus it will cost about 4x annually what the entire bush tax cut will cost.

Tax cuts spur economic growth. Especially when you cut taxes on the people who make a lot of money and have an entrepenurial spirit. They will invest their money in their own businesses or other businesses. Those business will then either buy equipment, hire employees, or advertise, among other minor things. If they hire employees, the ecomonomy grows. If they buy equipment, other companies pay their employees to make and ship the equipment. The economy grows. If they set up some advertising, another company has employees that design and produce the advertising. The economy grows. Everyobody wins. Except liberals who hate people prospering.

And who gives a damn if the government runs a deficit? A tax cut during deficits will increase economic activity, which will increase tax revenues after a few quarters. Even the government will be better of after tax cuts. But the liberals don't care. People succeeding hurts their cause.

2. Social security is a ponzi scheme. Look it up if you don't know what that is. It's horribly designed - take money from somebody every paycheck. Take money from their employer to match (goodbye to pension funds in the 80's thanks to that move). Give them a return of about .9%. When they retire, pay them squat. Then tax squat. But they need social security. Why? BECAUSE THEY GOVERNMENT TOOK THE MONEY THEY COULD HAVE BEEN INVESTING ON THEIR OWN TO PAY FOR FRIGGIN SOCIAL SECURITY!

Social security is like robbing someone of 15% of their paycheck for 45+ years. Then after you've had that money for all those years, you  start paying them back, little by little. But you take a 'tax' out of their own money, that they've already paid in on their own. Then they're supposed to be grateful for it. It's a big scam.  It needs to be phased out. It goes against everything this country was built on.

3. Universal health care - The theory it's unfair that some people may have access to more or better healthcare than someone else, so everyone must be forced to accept equally crappy healthcare, and pay more for it than they would otherwise. I don't want the same government that can't run the IRS or BATF correctly repsonsible for my heart surgery. I want them as far aways as humanly possible.

Everyone in america has access to emergency health care. It's the law. You can't be turned away because you don't have insurance. Paying for it is another thing. And it's your responsibility, not mine, you pathetic parasites.

I have folders filled with links on the horror stories of socialized medicine. People in canada go for months waiting for mamograms and cat scans. Some american cities have more advanced health care equipment that some canadian provinces. Know why? Because our system is better. Canada may be better if you want to wait forever for doctor to see you and nod and tell you it's 12 months before your chemotherapy starts, but in the real world, canadians come to american hospitals when they need quality medical care.

So BS, please stop posting this wishy washy touchy feely crap. I get it enough on the news, I don't need to see it here. It isn't based on the truth, the constitution, logic, or real world experiences. It's only based either on your trolling or your wishes. Go to DU and post this crap there. And stop trying to mess up my country. There are plenty of F'd up countries that you can live in if you want the benevolent government to take care of your every whim.

Apparently.  And not really even one of the more fun trolls we've had around here to play with.
[url]www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=5&t=189130[/url]



Damn Bastiat, would you leave some troll for the rest of us next time? [;)]

[b]BS[/b], I'm fairly sure that you're a DUh troll.  If I'm wrong, I apologize.  Whatever your intentiions may be, why don't you just cut the crap and be honest with us?  '
Unlike the site you most likely came from, you won't be banned for expressing contrary opinions here..

What we have here is 3 blind men debating the use of color in Van Gogh's works. [rolleyes]

Yankee1911-

Sorry. Guess I just had it building up inside of me.

Either BS is just trolling to get a rise out of people or he's some liberal who thinks it's fun to go on a board where 99.9% of the people disagree with his radical views and stir up crap. Either way he's still a troll.

Jarhead, you have a good head on your shoulders.  Really irritates me when politicos attribute the boom in the 90's to Clinton, the crash in 2000 to Bush.  As if either had the power to control the economy, as if Bush wanted to throw so many people out of work and crash the market.

The stock market's been in its strongest up trend I can remember since the huge sell-off after 9/11.  The stock market is forward-looking, so this is very very good news.  The market really took off in 1993 despite the crappy economy and employment figures.....because like I said the market looks ahead.

I'll throw in on this one:

.

By LAW, you are entitled to be treated at any hospital REGARDLESS of your ability to pay.  You may be stuck with a bill later on, but you can get health care that is second to none in the world.  Look at nationalized health care systems, and see what the wait for routine tests is.  Look at where the wealthy go in those countries for their health care (hint--many of them have their surgeries here in the USA).  

Does our health care system have it's faults--definitely.  A lot of it is market driven.  The "big drug companies" do the major research, put out the several years of testing required by our government to get licenses on new drugs.  They make a lot of money doing it--would they put their efforts into research if their profits were limited by the gov.org?   Who's going to come up with the next generation of miracle antibiotics as MRSA and VRE become more and more common (not to mention VRSA)?  


AFARR

Yeah, all these threads concerning challenging us to oppose liberal politics is pretty fishy.

I hope that everyone looking for a job finds one.  I'm not putting this up just for no reason, I'm putting this up because this is something that I have noticed about airline union jobs, and most of the airline union want their members to vote Democrat.  Now here's one beef that I have with the airline (read union) jobs.  Since all but one of the MAJOR US carriers (The non union carrier has similar rules as the union carriers, and infact instituted some changes to make them the same as their union competition)are union, they generally have some of the same work rules.  Every airline mechanic union contract I have read states that all new hires regardless of experience start at the bottom of the pay scale.  Frankly I find this to be a drag on the industry attracting talent (of course there is no shortage of out of work mechanics out there).  Lemme put this secnario out there because it happened to a friend of mine.  You are a lead mechanic at a major carrier making over 6000 a month gross, ok something happens and you lose your job.  Now, you have two options find another trade and possibly start bringing in close to what you were making, or stay in the profession that you have worked in for 15 plus years, and start over at less than 2000 a month.  What would you guys decide?

[:(!]

*Note to self #1: Change your screen name. Being called BS is not fun.

*Note to self #2: Never argue on behalf of the liberal, even if you're intentions are to start stimulating conversation. You will not make friends and will be called a troll.....

*Note to self #3: Find out what a troll is...it doesn't sound good. The last thing you want is to be in the same boat as Imbroglio.

Good post, Jarhead.

Uh, no.

There was a huge period of unwarranted and false mania in the economy.  As others have noted, it was a bubble.  That bubble was caused by a lot of things, including:

(1)  Internet came of age and EVERYONE thought they could make millions.  Drkoop.com?  e-groceries.com?  Give me a fucking break.  Yet these things IPO'd with thousand percent first-day run-ups.  People made money from nowhere.  There was no substance to these companies, and they had to die.

(2)  Beginning in 1997 there was this total fear of the "Y2K" problem.  Corporations and consumers upgraded billions of dollars of computer equipment before its "regular" end of life in the depriciation cycle just to be sure and safe on the Y2K thing.  This injected billions of dollars into the computer industry, and created unjustified expectations of future performance.  The manic Y2K fears were a market externality.  Klinton had nothing to do with it.

(3)   But Klinton DID keep us in the dark about just how much danger we were in from foreign terrorists.  He proped up the economy by hiding the ball on the terrorism issue.  Perhaps it worked for the economy, but I wonder if 3000+ people would have died if Klinton took that issue more seriously.  Perhaps a speech by him taking on the Islamists or some action beyond lobbing a cruise missile here and there would have brought the market down.  But if it could have prevented 9-11 wouldn't it have been worth it?

Well I think we know where you stand. You want the government to give you free healthcare & social security. Both are the biggest social entitlement scams ever created. Perhaps you should learn to take care of yourself instead of depending on the government. If you think they really care about you then you're sadly mistaken. Our country is full of so many sheeple no wonder we are in trouble.......

You know why I love Texas so much.  Folks ain't afraid to speak the truth.

Hoohaa Jarhead22.

TXL

All of this liberal hogwash I keep hearing about why cutting federal handouts due to a sluggish economy and tax-cuts really pisses me off.

You watch what happens. The economy slows down and there is less of a federal food-trough, and liberal run states will RAISE STATE TAXES to keep paying for socialist state handouts and pork barrel projects.

Conservative states will say, "Oh, hey, we have less income. Lets spend less". They operate just like a normal household. You lose your job? You stop cable TV and sell the 22' cabin cruiser to pay the mortgage. Eat more burger and fewer T-Bone steaks.

Whats your state going to do? NH is cutting services, which were already pretty low by US standards (thank God). The liberal element in NH is up in arms! hehe.... Whats your state doing?

My state tried to pass a sales tax, which failed.  The state legislature couldn't summon the will to cut anything or even finalize a budget, their one essential function.  They just split from the capital without doing their job.  It really stunned people who watch state politics for a living.

Things dont look too good for Alaska long-term.  The oil is running out and prices are just going to keep falling.  Taxes on the oil is what pays for the state budget.  We dont have taxes except for local sales taxes.

We have $20b in the bank, maybe that's why nobody's terribly worried.  But when that's gone, it is GONE.  We aren't going to have any more Prudhoe Bays or ANWRs.