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Posted: 3/5/2001 9:35:58 AM EST
OK, I've read that some of those here have letters from the ATF stating that when you file a Form 1 to make a SBR out of a pre-ban AR-15 that your "Pre-Ban-edness" is not lost.

If this is the case, why wouldn't it follow that if you file a Form 1 to make an AR-15 PISTOL from a Pre-Ban lower that it would still be a Pre-Ban weapon?

Isn't making a SBR out of a lower the same as making a pistol in the eyes of the law?

Has anybody asked this before????????

I also posted this on Bower's board [url]http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/mgmsg.cgi?read=90875[/url] for those that may be interested!
Link Posted: 3/6/2001 12:01:04 AM EST
I read the thread on subguns, you got the best advise you're going to get. James Bardwell is the "goto guy" on NFA questions. If you don't go SBR, there is no way to make a pre-ban RIFLE into a pre-ban PISTOL. Once it has a shoulder stock on it, it can never be a pistol.
Link Posted: 3/6/2001 3:58:05 AM EST
This is one of the more stupid laws that no one seems to understand.

For some reason a pistol can be converted into a rifle and go back to being a pistol but a rifle can never goto a pistol.

You can either go the SBR route on a pre-ban rifle or go the AOW route on a post ban AR-receiver and have all the pre-ban features you want.

If you don't have a C2 manuf. in your area I can register and transfer to a local C3 dealer for you a post ban receiver as an AOW for nominal fee.
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 10:09:41 AM EST
Ok, I found the letter that described making a PISTOL from a rifle receiver.  For those that say you can not make a pistol from a RIFLE.... what do you think this letter is saying?????

From.... [url]http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/user/wbardwel/public/nfalist/atf_letter7.txt[/url]

October 1, 1992

Firearms Technical Branch
Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
650 Mass. Ave., NW
Washington, DC  20226

Dear Sirs:

The Greensboro, NC BATF Compliance Office suggested that I write to
you for information on the following point.

I am interested on whether it is possible to have a commercially
manufactured rifle receiver changed to be legally considered to be a handgun
receiver, and how this can be done.  The Compliance Office said that this
might be possible via a "Letter of Determination", but advised me to write
to you about the criteria and procedures.

For example, if a person has a rifle receiver and wishes to have it
built into a rifle-caliber handgun suitable for steel silhouette target
shooting, comparable to the bolt action Remington XP-100 handgun.  I
understand that the serial number of this receiver is recorded as being for a
rifle.  Could this person have this receiver's serial number considered to be
a handgun receiver?  If so, what procedures and paperwork would be



                       Oct 29 1992
Dear Mr. XXXXX:

This refers to your letter of October 1, 1992, in which you inquire
about the legality of manufacturing a handgun which utilizes a rifle
type receiver.

26 U.S.C. Chapter 53 # 5845(a)(4), the National Firearms Act (NFA),
defines the term "firearm" to include a weapon made from a rifle if
such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches
or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length.

Utilizing the receiver of an existing rifle for the purposes of
manufacturing a handgun would constitute the making of a firearm as
defined above.  Individuals desiring to make such a firearm must first
submit an ATF Form 1, Application To Make And Register a Firearm and
pay the applicable $200 making tax.

If an individual were to obtain a rifle type receiver that had not
previously been utilized in the assembly of a rifle, a handgun could be
made and not be subject to the provisions of the NFA.  Verification
must be obtained from the manufacturer of the receiver to establish
its authenticity.  

We trust the foregoing has been responsive to your inquiry.  If we may
be of any further assistance, please contact us.

     Sincerely your,
     Edward M. Owen, Jr.
     Chief, Firearms Technology Branch

View Quote

Link Posted: 3/13/2001 10:23:06 AM EST
See....  [url]http://subguns.biggerhammer.net/mgmsg.cgi?read=92862[/url] for more oppinions...  while they last!

I am working on buying another Pre-Ban from the board that I will either turn into a SBR or Pistol....  I realize for the same $200 tax the SBR gives me more options so that is likely the way I will go.....

However, for states or areas where a SBR may be difficuly, an PISTOL may be easier for some people to get approval for!  

Also, I also wonder if the letter is really saying you are making a PISTOL.. or is it saying that you are simply registering it to make a SBR....  It's very vague to me but the context of the original letter makes me think that it may be possible to register it as a pistol....

I wonder what the ATF would do if I were to send in the paperwork and write in "PISTOL" where you would normally record "Short Barreled Rifle"?

Thanks for any oppinions!
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 10:40:34 AM EST
quarterbore:  you can't turn a pre-ban rifle receiver into a pistol - only into a short-barreled rifle.  By definition, a pre-ban receiver has been assembled into something, and unless it was assembled into a pre-ban pistol (they're quite rare), it can't ever become a pistol.  The $200 tax stamp and Form 1 is to make it into a short-barreled rifle, since a pistol is not an NFA item, by itself.

If you were to put 'pistol' on the form 1, I think ATF would either reject it out of hand, or contact you to ask for a clarification of what you were trying to do.  If you build a pistol configuration from a receiver originally assembled as a rifle, be it pre-ban or post-ban, you're making an SBR, not a pistol.

I see one possible gray area to exploit:  The ATF guidelines say the receiver must have never been ASSEMBLED as a rifle.  However, a receiver is pre-ban if it was set aside, stripped, with all parts necessary to make a rifle, before the date of the ban.  

While this is clearly a pre-ban rifle in the eyes of the ATF, there might be a loophole in the language for a rifle kit determined to be pre-ban, but never actually ASSEMBLED.  Try that one out on the ATF for size.
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 1:04:52 PM EST
Why dont you buy a post ban receiver, register it as an AOW then build it into a pistol with a forward grip. That is my idea, I just havent got around to it yet. Im going to file the paperwork when I get back from vacation. As an AOW you get a pistol with all the evil features you want (except a stock) plus a forward grip, which I think would be a plus anyways. Think about it.

Link Posted: 3/14/2001 3:31:31 PM EST

I know the laws about AOWs and if I register a pre-ban as a SBR... I can still configure it as an AOW.....


Plus use it as a pistol... or as a rifle... or as a SBR....

It just gives me more options!
Link Posted: 3/14/2001 6:00:14 PM EST
FORM 1 the thing as a SBR!!!....With SBR you are free to add and remove stock as you please.
Link Posted: 3/14/2001 11:11:04 PM EST
remeber that that letter is almost 9 years old
Link Posted: 3/15/2001 3:18:09 AM EST
I don't think you can convert a post-ban receiver into a pistol because it would then be a semi-auto assault weapon. Bardwell had a column on this a while back and the ATF has ruled that once a post-ban SAW, always a post-ban SAW. Your only out is to convert to full auto, and that door closed in '86.
Link Posted: 3/15/2001 7:12:34 AM EST
munitor:  that's correct (about not making a post-ban rifle into a pistol) but not the point.  You cannot legally convert ANY rifle receiver into a pistol - only into an SBR.

However, you can build a new, stripped, never assembled receiver into an AR pistol.  But unless the receiver is a pre-ban pistol receiver, you'll never make the 50 oz weight limit in order to have a detachable mag outside the pistol grip on a semi-auto pistol.  Hence, you'd have to "fix" the magazine, or swiss-cheese the thing with lightening holes and cuts to make the weight limit.
Link Posted: 3/16/2001 4:17:56 AM EST
Circuits, you are right. Imprecise choice of words on my part - should have said build instead of convert. I was actually thinking of Ponyboy's suggestion of making a post-ban AOW, which runs afoul of the SAW ban.
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