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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 9/11/2004 5:29:05 PM EST
I'm looking at the possibility of relocating to Deepinaharta, Texas, and am curious about something...

How much would it take to learn to fly a simple prop plane with sufficient range to reach from, say, San Antonio to Miami?

Do aircraft RENTALS exist, and if so, how much is normal? Is that even a good idea?

How much do used planes go for, and how much is the upkeep?

I guess I'm just wondering if it's worth doing when compared to flying commercial all the time. I've always wanted to learn to fly anyway, and I'd use it to fly out and see folks in New Mexico, Nebraska, etc.

I'll be researching later, but I know there's at least a few of you here who know about this stuff.

Thanks!

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:31:49 PM EST
Flight training from a flight center will probably run in the neighborhood of $6,000 plus or minus aircraft rental.

Used planes go from around $40k and up. My $0.02 is on kit planes and experimentals, but that's just me.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:34:08 PM EST
As a former student pilot (everything but my check-ride)... I'd spend the money on a nice motorcycle. To fly a single engine from SA to Miami, you CAN'T FLY ACROSS THE GULF.

Sorry, it's not safe, and I doubt any single engine a/c short of a Pilatus would have the range.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:34:58 PM EST
Short answer:
$5-6K for single engine, land, private pilot ticket.
Add $2-3K for instrument
Add another $2-3K for multi-engine

Plane:
To make the kind of trips you describe, you should be looking at a twin or high-performance single. Decent examples start in the 30s, but for modern avionics and reliable, low-time engines, the cost goes up and up.

Rentals:
Great way to go. May be able to rent a nearly-new example of a twin or high-performance single for as little as $175/hr, fuel included.

More later, and expect lots and lots of replies. Plenty of pilots here.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:45:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
More later, and expect lots and lots of replies. Plenty of pilots here.



I love this friggin' place!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:48:26 PM EST
Short answer:
$5-6K for single engine, land, private pilot ticket.
Add $2-3K for instrument
Add another $2-3K for multi-engine


ComAir Aviation Accad. cost me 60k for my tickets. Aint cheap but lands the job in the erj's!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:48:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 5:50:24 PM EST by ar-wrench]
You will not see any savings by flying yourself over going commercial.

That isn't to say don't do it. It is a very expensive hobby, but very rewarding. If you aren't flying as part of your job duties (very regularly) you will only be able to stay competent in VFR conditions. That greatly reduces the flexibility of flying.

I don't fly anymore, don't have to get anywhere that fast. Driving is dirt cheap compared to flying.

Ratings: ASEL, AMEL, Commercial, Instrument

Planes I have flown:

CV-240
Luscombe 8A
Ercoupe
C150
C152
PA-38
PA-28-180
Pa-28-200R
Pa-23
Pa-30
C172
C310N
Grummen AA-1B
A-4
F-5
F-4
T-33

I would gladly start flying again if I could get someone else to pay for it.
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 5:55:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/11/2004 5:57:41 PM EST by nationwide]

Originally Posted By ar-wrench:
You will not see any savings by flying yourself over going commercial.

That isn't to say don't do it. It is a very expensive hobby, but very rewarding. If you aren't flying as part of your job duties (very regularly) you will only be able to stay competent in VFR conditions. That greatly reduces the flexibility of flying.

I don't fly anymore, don't have to get anywhere that fast. Driving is dirt cheap compared to flying.

Ratings: ASEL, AMEL, Commercial, Instrument

Planes I have flown:

CV-240
Luscombe 8A
Ercoupe
C150
C152

PA-38
PA-28-180140 and 151
Pa-28-200R
Pa-23
Pa-30
C172
C310N
Grummen AA-1B
A-4
F-5
F-4

T-33

I would gladly start flying again if I could get someone else to pay for it.



I've got time in the red. The ones in green lend me to suspect you've had your fair share of someone else paying for it!!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:06:29 PM EST

Originally Posted By nationwide:


I've got time in the red. The ones in green lend me to suspect you've had your fair share of someone else paying for it!!



Most of my flying was paid for by someone else.

For years I was a real airplane junkie, and took every opportunity to fly that came my way.
My taildraagger flying was very limited, wish I had gotten checked out and gotten comfortable in a J3. Peapatch flying is where its at to me!
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 6:08:47 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
...
Do aircraft RENTALS exist, and if so, how much is normal? Is that even a good idea?

How much do used planes go for, and how much is the upkeep?
...



There is a reason for the expression, "If it flies, floats, or f*cks, it's cheaper to rent!"
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:40:31 PM EST
Sigh.....

I've always wanted to learn to fly, but it really sounds TOO expensive for just a hobby. I was hoping to leverage it for my travel needs (which will be substantial, as I will want to see my girls as much as possible).

My other dream has been to learn to fly, and perhaps even own, a helo. Just like the one in Magnum, P.I., but with a different paint job (and maybe mounted miniguns! ).

I hate reality....
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:42:39 PM EST




There is a reason for the expression, "If it flies, floats, or f*cks, it's cheaper to rent!"




Exactly. I have plenty of flight experience, and its not cheap. Not cheap at all. However, it will be the best money you have ever spent.

<----CFII MEI
Link Posted: 9/11/2004 8:44:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
My other dream has been to learn to fly, and perhaps even own, a helo. Just like the one in Magnum, P.I., but with a different paint job (and maybe mounted miniguns! ).



If renting a Cessna 172 is expensive to you (it's expensive to me too!), then renting a helo will blow you out of the water. Helicopters don't come cheap, even the small little Robinson R22s.

Trust me, as a civilian private pilot, and a military student pilot, it's WELL worth the time and money.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:08:19 AM EST
I agree with the previous posts regarding cost. The reality is that unles you have a lot of time and money, commuting between Texas and Miami in a private aircraft is not practical. Even the cost of operating an inexpensive airplane adds up quicly due to their lower speed and capabilties.

Not trying to talk you out of learning to fly but you should know what you can and cannot expect to be able to do once you learn to fly.

BTW, the helo is the best flying there is in my opinion but, as others have pointed out, a lot more expensive for the ratings and rentals.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 2:47:24 AM EST
Current commercial airline ticket prices have calibrated my decisions as follows; if the trip is within the unrefueled range of my aircraft ie. 550-600 nautical then it is cheaper to fly myself. Over the unrefueled range it is cheaper to take a Southwest jet. Of course I have not left the ground unarmed for four years and that is a great feeling. The last commercial flight I had to make was in early 2000 IIRC.

Get a Piper Tomahawk to fly yourself. A clean one with a 125HP conversion will cruise 115knts sip just over 6 gals per hour, has the least maintenance of any certified powered aircraft I have seen (I maintained a fleet of them) and the engine time between overhauls is 2400Hrs. Planerench out.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:41:22 AM EST
Planerench, what's in that Tomahawk, a 320 Lyc.?
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:58:44 AM EST

Originally Posted By RMac:
Planerench, what's in that Tomahawk, a 320 Lyc.?


O-235L2C Lycoming. STC pistons from the J model up the output to 125HP. There was some undeserved critisism of the aircraft in a magazine a decade ago and I scooped up an instrument trainer with low time for 8000. Not so anymore. Mine would do 130 KNOTS flat out. Not bad for a Hatchet.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 4:06:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Planerench:

Originally Posted By RMac:
Planerench, what's in that Tomahawk, a 320 Lyc.?


O-235L2C Lycoming. STC pistons from the J model up the output to 125HP. There was some undeserved critisism of the aircraft in a magazine a decade ago and I scooped up an instrument trainer with low time for 8000. Not so anymore. Mine would do 130 KNOTS flat out. Not bad for a Hatchet.



Yeah, I didn't think the 235's were that high in horsepower, not familiar with that stc. I don't get to read all the tech stuff at work, just get the common ad's and sb's. But I get to work on bunches of crankshafts for them all.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 4:36:31 AM EST
Ouch Traumahawks!!!!!!!!!! J/K Good starter plane there as long as you read the limits and stay within them. I'll be honest, maintaing an airplane isn't cheap. Back when I was doing annuals(required inspection) on the side, I would charge based on aircraft type, and total hours from the last annual. 700-800 for a lightly flown light single, to possibly up to 1700-1900 for a doctor owned and flown Bonanza or Baron. Then my standard shop rate of $62/hr plus parts (5% markup) for any squaks found during the insp.

of course if you were in the know, I could always work something out on the price.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:02:25 PM EST
WhoWee, I am now up to 7.5 hours logged. Did my first crosswind landings last time with 12-15mph winds with gusts to 20-25, what a friggin rush, I havent worked like that in 20 years. I envy all who make thier living in the air, wish I would have started 20 years sooner.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:08:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By RMac:
Planerench, what's in that Tomahawk, a 320 Lyc.?




No IC engine. It has 3 hamsters, running on a diet of carrots and lettuce. heheheheh......gotta love the traumahawk. I cant even fit in one (6'4" 250lb)
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 1:10:52 PM EST

Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:
WhoWee, I am now up to 7.5 hours logged. Did my first crosswind landings last time with 12-15mph winds with gusts to 20-25, what a friggin rush, I havent worked like that in 20 years. I envy all who make thier living in the air, wish I would have started 20 years sooner.



Do yourself a favor and make damn sure you get your ticket. Best thing I ever did for myself.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:04:07 PM EST

Originally Posted By PeteCO:

Originally Posted By PanzerOfDoom:
WhoWee, I am now up to 7.5 hours logged. Did my first crosswind landings last time with 12-15mph winds with gusts to 20-25, what a friggin rush, I havent worked like that in 20 years. I envy all who make thier living in the air, wish I would have started 20 years sooner.



Do yourself a favor and make damn sure you get your ticket. Best thing I ever did for myself.



What exactly does that mean?
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:13:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:15:47 PM EST
I hear ya bro, that is the plan at the present.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:16:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:19:29 PM EST
Ok....

Now, what I don't quite understand is, if the "sport" is so expensive, how do people who DON'T do it for business get into it?

I see HUNDREDS of private aircraft all over the place, but then I hear it's super expensive. Seeing as a plane is not like a boat (you can anchor a boat to have a barbecue or an overnighter), how are they so popular if they are so expensive?

I want to learn simply because I think it would be a hoot to do so, but to qualify just to say I am is worthless. In my case, I want to be able to travel with greater flexibility and speed, and hopefully save money in the long run. If that's not realistic, then what's the point?

If the hobby is that expensive, I'd rather blow the $$$ on guns...
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 3:19:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:I hate reality....






That's the way it is, isn't it?
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 6:18:15 PM EST

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Ok....

Now, what I don't quite understand is, if the "sport" is so expensive, how do people who DON'T do it for business get into it?

I see HUNDREDS of private aircraft all over the place, but then I hear it's super expensive. Seeing as a plane is not like a boat (you can anchor a boat to have a barbecue or an overnighter), how are they so popular if they are so expensive?

I want to learn simply because I think it would be a hoot to do so, but to qualify just to say I am is worthless. In my case, I want to be able to travel with greater flexibility and speed, and hopefully save money in the long run. If that's not realistic, then what's the point?

If the hobby is that expensive, I'd rather blow the $$$ on guns...



Have you flown a plane before? If not, you'll know right away. Especially when you solo. There is nothing like taking a plane up by yourself. It was twice as cool when I finally got my ticket and rented my first plane while not under instruction.

The $100 Hamburger is a great tradition in aviation. Rent a plane and fly to somewhere to have lunch or dinner and come back.

It's expensive. It's also well worth it. Why do you blow so much money on guns and ammunition? It's the same thing.

Flying is the most fun you can have with your pants on.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 6:23:33 PM EST
Don't do it!



Airplanes suck ass and they crash all the time!

just kidding.

good luck,
www.sbs.aero
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 6:40:20 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 6:50:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 6:53:34 PM EST by prideboss]
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 9:02:22 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 9:06:03 PM EST by BillofRights]

Originally Posted By Zaphod:
Ok....

Now, what I don't quite understand is, if the "sport" is so expensive, how do people who DON'T do it for business get into it?

I see HUNDREDS of private aircraft all over the place, but then I hear it's super expensive. Seeing as a plane is not like a boat (you can anchor a boat to have a barbecue or an overnighter), how are they so popular if they are so expensive?

I want to learn simply because I think it would be a hoot to do so, but to qualify just to say I am is worthless. In my case, I want to be able to travel with greater flexibility and speed, and hopefully save money in the long run. If that's not realistic, then what's the point?

If the hobby is that expensive, I'd rather blow the $$$ on guns...




With the above quote, you answered your own question.

OK- Here is the answer, though you probably won't like it.

4-5 thousand for the Prvate ticket. (depending on your aptitude, and dedication) $50-80 per hour for the rental. Rental does 120 mph, so you can do the math.

There is a re-occuring problem with thunderstorms over the route you mentioned, so unless you are retired, and have no schedule to keep, you need an aircraft with radar, and the skill to fly instruments. You would want a professional co-pilot to help keep you alive.
I would not recommend flying it yourself until you had about a thousand hours. Even then, It's not a hobby, it's a lifetime commitment.

Airline travel is so cheap these days, that you can never justify it from an economic standpoint.

I already have all the skills, etc, yet I DRIVE between CO and MO. My boss offered me use of the small corporate turboprop- I drove, rather than pay for fuel.

The Gun addiction/hobby is a good analogy- If you have to ask "why" you don't need to be doing it.

The main difference being that, unlike a gun, an aircraft really will jump up and kill you.

You may hear disagreement from some of the resident Private pilots, but flying an aircraft for personal transportation is somewhat of a hoax. It is a concept that is pushed by ALPA, EAA, your local flight schools, and even the FAA. It is a great idea in concept, but is unnacceptably expensive and dangerous in practice. In general aviation, I have personally known 10 people that were killed in 5 different accidents that killed a total of 18 people.

As technology gets better, some of the risk and costs may decrease, but not to the point where you can justify it from an economic standpoint. If you have your own company, and a good accountant, then you may be able to justify it when you factor in time saved and tax benefits.

People fly because of the feeling of being in total control of 3 dimentions, while manipulating the 4th. Mastering something that can and will kill you if you are careless or unlucky. You are simultaniusly the master of, and at the mercy of nature.

Flying literally and figurativly lifts you above all the everyday petty bullshit, and let's you see things from a new perspective.

Take an introductory flight, and see if you "get it" If you do, you will easily justify flying, the same way that you justify buying guns for the "investment" potential.

Fly for fufillment- not to get from A to B.

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