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Posted: 11/19/2012 4:25:12 AM EST
http://ncsilencer.blogspot.com/2011/09/truth-about-nfa-trusts.html

Interesting. I want to do a trust, and $50 sounds WAY better!
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 4:52:06 AM EST
That must all be a parody, no one uses facts or logic in the gun community.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 4:57:03 AM EST
Great article/blog.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 4:57:49 AM EST
I didn't use an attorney out of fear of the ATF... I used an attorney so that I would be sure that my NFA items would be passed on to my heirs. That's the thing about a trust... if you do it yourself, if there's any problem with the way inheritance is set up, it won't be discovered until after your death.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:11:57 AM EST
Good read.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:20:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By DHunter68:
http://ncsilencer.blogspot.com/2011/09/truth-about-nfa-trusts.html

Interesting. I want to do a trust, and $50 sounds WAY better!


Yeah, my LGS had a card from an attorney using all sorts of scary words to try to get you to go the lawyer route....for $400. Seems high for, like, 30 minutes worth of work.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:32:48 AM EST
If the NFA branch approved the transfer of a item to a trust, why would they later deny the tax-exempt transfer of that item to the beneficiary of the trust?

What super-secret incantation is a lawyer going to put into a trust that will ward off the NFA branch changing their mind? Do I need to pay $600 to find that out?

I appreciate the skills of a good lawyer, but apparently DIY trusts are getting forms approved. Please frighten me with horror stories about how a trust maker dies and ATF takes away all his stuff rather than letting it go to the beneficiaries listed in the trust.



Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:39:50 AM EST
Can somebody make that link hot, or tell me how to copy and paste with my Android? I can never get it to highlight the whole link....

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:42:15 AM EST
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:50:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:51:59 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 5:53:33 AM EST by DDiggler]
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
If the NFA branch approved the transfer of a item to a trust, why would they later deny the tax-exempt transfer of that item to the beneficiary of the trust?

What super-secret incantation is a lawyer going to put into a trust that will ward off the NFA branch changing their mind? Do I need to pay $600 to find that out?

I appreciate the skills of a good lawyer, but apparently DIY trusts are getting forms approved. Please frighten me with horror stories about how a trust maker dies and ATF takes away all his stuff rather than letting it go to the beneficiaries listed in the trust.





I would also use a lawyer to draft a trust used for inheritance purposes for my house, bank accounts and other assets. NFA has NOTHING to do with it. It's not about the ATF. It's about having the peace of mind knowing that the trust will stand up to scrutiny after you pass on... again, NOT discussing NFA trusts particularly and what the ATF approves/denies has nothing to do with my statement.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:54:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:54:37 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By DHunter68:
http://ncsilencer.blogspot.com/2011/09/truth-about-nfa-trusts.html

Interesting. I want to do a trust, and $50 sounds WAY better!


Yeah, my LGS had a card from an attorney using all sorts of scary words to try to get you to go the lawyer route....for $400. Seems high for, like, 30 minutes worth of work.

And they're probably not doing the work. Their secretary or paralegal is just filling in blanks on a form for the most part, especially for a generic document.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:54:38 AM EST
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:57:06 AM EST
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By DHunter68:
http://ncsilencer.blogspot.com/2011/09/truth-about-nfa-trusts.html

Interesting. I want to do a trust, and $50 sounds WAY better!


Yeah, my LGS had a card from an attorney using all sorts of scary words to try to get you to go the lawyer route....for $400. Seems high for, like, 30 minutes worth of work.


you're not paying for the time spent, you're paying for the expertise

most of the people making their own trusts don't even really understand what a trust is

know-how makes the world go around
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 5:59:36 AM EST
I'd use cheap software if my sole purpose was to avoid a signature on a cheap can. If the trust was going to hold any significant assets I'd have an attorney draft it to make sure assets would be passed to the beneficiaries correctly.

The argument that the the ATF will invalidate your trust at a later date is just fearmongering by attorneys

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:02:36 AM EST


There's a whole thread discussing that article here
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:03:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:15:20 AM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.


I know of but cannot name three people who have had forms denied due to trust issues. As far as NFA Trusts, I have seen them professionally drafted by attorneys for anywhere from $300-$600. If you are only buying a $300 .22LR suppressor, that may not be a good deal. If you bought a $5000 Uzi that is only going to appreciate in value, it starts to make a lot more sense.

Let me give another example - I do some land work in Southeast Fort Worth. The properties there may only be valued at $20,000 or so. Many of the residents do not feel it is worthwhile to pay several hundred dollars to an attorney for a hour or so worth of work to draft a deed - so they get a form deed and draft their own. One of my jobs is to fix all the mistakes made by DIY-ers. They end up paying me more money to clear the cloud on title they created than they would have to draft it right in the first place.

If nobody is going to fight over your stuff, you never get divorced, etc. then a form trust will probably work just fine for you.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:03:17 AM EST
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.

Your law school has done a great job of perpetuating the need for lawyers and hence law school.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:04:45 AM EST
Attorneys LOVE things that they can pass off to a legal assistant and they never even have to leave the tee-box or green. Even the legal assistant can fill in a couple of blanks and click "print". There is more work in typing the invoice.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:07:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By Shenanigunz:
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.

Your law school has done a great job of perpetuating the need for lawyers and hence law school.


Lol. What did your school tell you about your future job prospects?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:11:14 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:12:02 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:13:02 AM EST by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By DDiggler:
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
If the NFA branch approved the transfer of a item to a trust, why would they later deny the tax-exempt transfer of that item to the beneficiary of the trust?

What super-secret incantation is a lawyer going to put into a trust that will ward off the NFA branch changing their mind? Do I need to pay $600 to find that out?

I appreciate the skills of a good lawyer, but apparently DIY trusts are getting forms approved. Please frighten me with horror stories about how a trust maker dies and ATF takes away all his stuff rather than letting it go to the beneficiaries listed in the trust.





I would also use a lawyer to draft a trust used for inheritance purposes for my house, bank accounts and other assets. NFA has NOTHING to do with it. It's not about the ATF. It's about having the peace of mind knowing that the trust will stand up to scrutiny after you pass on... again, NOT discussing NFA trusts particularly and what the ATF approves/denies has nothing to do with my statement.



This would be my take on it

As a structural engineer I can tell you that most off-permit cheapo construction performs OK in normal service.

Except every so often it kills people or fails and costs a shitheap of money to fix

I'll bet that most of these do-it-yourself trusts will perform fine in normal service, but when they are put under "full design load", they might have some flaw that ends up costing a lot of money to fix.



Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:13:27 AM EST
Originally Posted By Shenanigunz:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By DHunter68:
http://ncsilencer.blogspot.com/2011/09/truth-about-nfa-trusts.html

Interesting. I want to do a trust, and $50 sounds WAY better!


Yeah, my LGS had a card from an attorney using all sorts of scary words to try to get you to go the lawyer route....for $400. Seems high for, like, 30 minutes worth of work.

And they're probably not doing the work. Their secretary or paralegal is just filling in blanks on a form for the most part, especially for a generic document.


A guy who is making his living only by doing $600 NFA trusts doesn't have a secretary or a paralegal. I can guarantee you that.

In any case, regardless of who does the work, the attorney signing it is going to be the one held responsible by the state bar and malpractice insurance if there is a complaint.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:13:50 AM EST
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:15:15 AM EST
Originally Posted By lichter50:
Originally Posted By Shenanigunz:
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.

Your law school has done a great job of perpetuating the need for lawyers and hence law school.


Lol. What did your school tell you about your future job prospects?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Rainbows and unicorns and shit! Doesn't matter what the school teaches, it's always a high-demand field with good pay, right?

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:16:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.


This.

As an estate planning lawyer, I can't tell you how much I love Suze Orman and the other DIY types. I've had a number of clients come in to pay me to give their plan a review. I've only ever spotted a handful of invalid documents, but in almost every case the drafter (read as the DIY client) confused some terms and either left people out who should have been included or bequeathed stuff to someone they shouldn't have. Those invalid documents were invalid due to user error. Had they been properly executed, they would have been valid. What bothers me is the thought that there may be hundreds or thousands of DIY estate plans sitting in homes across the country that are completely jacked up because the DIYer signed the docs and called it good without the benefit of professional review.

In reality, an individual of average intelligence with solid reading comprehension skills could get up to speed and draft a basic trust in less than a work day. Similarly, that same individual could teach himself how to change the oil in his car. The difference is that when you're chaning oil, you get instant feedback when a mistake occurs. Either something doesn't unscrew the way it should or you can't find this, or soemthing doesn't go back where you found it. You can troubleshoot from here. However, when you're drafting a trust, there is no feedback until you get a professional opinion or the document is put into action. By the time its put into action, its probably too late . . . becuase you'll be dead.

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:18:46 AM EST
A family friend's aunt left her family a trust right before she died. She basically blurted it out on her death bed and right now it's an unusable waste of $9mil with a bunch of hangups and problems they can't get past. They are going to court in a month to try to convince the judge to let them at least use it for education. Get a lawyer and do it RIGHT. Especially for expensive shit.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:20:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:23:04 AM EST by Bartholomew_Roberts]
Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By lichter50:
I'd use cheap software if my sole purpose was to avoid a signature on a cheap can. If the trust was going to hold any significant assets I'd have an attorney draft it to make sure assets would be passed to the beneficiaries correctly.

The argument that the the ATF will invalidate your trust at a later date is just fearmongering by attorneys

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Like we give a fuck. Stupid people who do shit on their own and then fuck things up end up paying us more later. Some guy bitching about $ 400 to set up a trust, fuck that, there's a phone call I don't want.


. Every time I think about doing NFA trusts for some extra money I think of all those people I used to deal with at gun shows when I worked for an FFL in college and think "Do you want that guy as a client for the next 20-30 years?" - and all for that giant $600 pot of gold too!
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:21:30 AM EST
Are we really debating the validity of employing a professional for this kind of thing? Each stamp is $200 and we're bitching about a one time fee of $250-$500? I think gambling with your NFA collection and it's chain of transfer is a bad move.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:23:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By lichter50:
Originally Posted By Shenanigunz:
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.

Your law school has done a great job of perpetuating the need for lawyers and hence law school.


Lol. What did your school tell you about your future job prospects?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

snicker...

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:23:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:26:57 AM EST by NoVaGator]
If my living trust wants to be challenged by my heirs and beneficiaries they can knock themselves out.

If they don't challenge it, "the state" gives fuckall about the trust.

(and even if it IS challenged the courts won't necessarily become involved.)
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:24:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:27:45 AM EST by cyborg543]
Originally Posted By pale_pony:
Attorneys LOVE things that they can pass off to a legal assistant and they never even have to leave the tee-box or green. Even the legal assistant can fill in a couple of blanks and click "print". There is more work in typing the invoice.


here's the problem - having non-lawyers say a lawyer is optional doesn't carry any water because they don't know enough to make that call.


if i had a friend who was an expert lawyer and he told me that trusts were a no-brainer, I'd believe it

otherwise I'd have to bank on the probabilities. OK, so what is probabilty that gun shop bubba talk is wrong? exactly 100%. therefore, use a lawyer.


I really don't think that ATF acceptance of the trust is going to be the acid test. Those examiners are not lawyers and they don't even really know all that much about firearms.


The acid test is when somebody hires a lawyer to rip your trust to shit, then you're going to see what kind of staying power that quicken trust has.


I write this knowing that almost nobody will agree



Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:25:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By Aimless:

Originally Posted By lichter50:
I'd use cheap software if my sole purpose was to avoid a signature on a cheap can. If the trust was going to hold any significant assets I'd have an attorney draft it to make sure assets would be passed to the beneficiaries correctly.

The argument that the the ATF will invalidate your trust at a later date is just fearmongering by attorneys

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

Like we give a fuck. Stupid people who do shit on their own and then fuck things up end up paying us more later. Some guy bitching about $ 400 to set up a trust, fuck that, there's a phone call I don't want.

So true among most professions.... Be it mechanic, plumber, gunsmith, lawyer etc.

When I ran a CNC punch press, the company tried to save money by having me and the leadman repair it via talking to a factory rep over the phone. Bad idea, but the boss said do it, so we did it. Next week when the $300 hr tech came on to the job site I told him, "We fixed it, now you make it work...."
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:25:49 AM EST
Did half of you seriously even read the article and see what he's stating?

Look, personally, after my shits approved - IDGAF what happens to my NFA items after I croak off.... that is, if, maybe, possibly, somewhere, somehow I fucked up a small detail in the process.

Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:27:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By cyborg543:


if i had a friend who was an expert lawyer and he told me that trusts were a no-brainer, I'd believe it

otherwise I'd have to bank on the probabilities. OK, so what is probabilty that gun shop bubba talk is wrong? exactly 100%. therefore, use a lawyer.


I really don't think that ATF acceptance of the trust is going to be the acid test. Those examiners are not lawyers and they don't even really know all that much about firearms.


The acid test is when somebody hires a lawyer to rip your trust to shit, then you're going to see what kind of staying power that quicken trust has.


I write this knowing that almost nobody will agree




I believe, subject to correction, that the NFA trust is reviewed by in house legal eagles at the NFA branch before approval.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:28:34 AM EST
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.


Where have I said anything about being denied? NFA reviewers aren't attorneys either, they can't validate a trust.

What happens if you setup a trust with your wife. She decides to take your M16 to the range. For whatever reason, an ATF agent arrests her for illegal possession.

Do you think your skills at filling out Will Maker are enough to evade jail time?

What if you die in a tragic boating accident? Are your skills at filling out will maker going to ensure your collection is passed onto your children?

Yes, lawyers ARE expensive, but good ones are worth every penny. Buying $1000 suppressors, $200 tax stamps, $10,000 machine guns, you can spare $500 to ensure that the trust is found valid in a court of law.

This has nothing to do with getting your stamps. It is about keeping them.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:31:11 AM EST
Originally Posted By DDiggler:
I didn't use an attorney out of fear of the ATF... I used an attorney so that I would be sure that my NFA items would be passed on to my heirs. That's the thing about a trust... if you do it yourself, if there's any problem with the way inheritance is set up, it won't be discovered until after your death.


There is no "inheritence" or probate involved with passing down control of property through a trust.

You go tits up, and your successor trustees who you have named and who you can change at your discretion, immediately become the trustees who control the trust which continues to own the property placed into it.

Real estate, securitites, bank accounts, cars, gold coins, guns, fossilized dinosaur turd collection; all treated the same.

You can also have a "pour over will" which states that any and all of your property which for one reason or another, you failed to place into the trust while you were alive is willed to the trust.

Of course that portion of your property is subject to probate wherein potential creditors are given a period of time during which they can come forward and place a lien against those assets before the pour over into the trust.

It's just a measure to take care of odds and ends that people forget to include among their assets deeded to their trust.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:33:42 AM EST
Originally Posted By wtturn:

Originally Posted By lichter50:
Originally Posted By Shenanigunz:
Originally Posted By EagleArmsHBAR:
I have learned enough in my first semester of law school to know that anyone that does any legal work themselves is taking a huge risk.

Your law school has done a great job of perpetuating the need for lawyers and hence law school.


Lol. What did your school tell you about your future job prospects?

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile

snicker...


Uh oh, I must've got another lawyer's attention!

The education industry in general is very good at perpetuating itself.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:40:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:42:21 AM EST by fettesbrotde]

Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.


Where have I said anything about being denied? NFA reviewers aren't attorneys either, they can't validate a trust.

What happens if you setup a trust with your wife. She decides to take your M16 to the range. For whatever reason, an ATF agent arrests her for illegal possession.

Do you think your skills at filling out Will Maker are enough to evade jail time?


What if you die in a tragic boating accident? Are your skills at filling out will maker going to ensure your collection is passed onto your children?

Yes, lawyers ARE expensive, but good ones are worth every penny. Buying $1000 suppressors, $200 tax stamps, $10,000 machine guns, you can spare $500 to ensure that the trust is found valid in a court of law.

This has nothing to do with getting your stamps. It is about keeping them.

A lawyer won't avoid jail time in the above scenario as well - you really think he's going to go "WHOOPS I fucked up and you're magically not going to be in jail"?

Reality is you / your wife are going to be stuck in jail until you work through that legal process which will likely take weeks, months, etc.

Must be nice living in a dream world.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:42:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By substandard:

Originally Posted By cyborg543:


if i had a friend who was an expert lawyer and he told me that trusts were a no-brainer, I'd believe it

otherwise I'd have to bank on the probabilities. OK, so what is probabilty that gun shop bubba talk is wrong? exactly 100%. therefore, use a lawyer.


I really don't think that ATF acceptance of the trust is going to be the acid test. Those examiners are not lawyers and they don't even really know all that much about firearms.


The acid test is when somebody hires a lawyer to rip your trust to shit, then you're going to see what kind of staying power that quicken trust has.


I write this knowing that almost nobody will agree




I believe, subject to correction, that the NFA trust is reviewed by in house legal eagles at the NFA branch before approval.



ATF has a team of expert lawyers reviewing trusts? says who?

I wrote a letter about a error that ATF made on one of my forms, got a reply 9 months later saying, "If you need our help with a problem, just let us know, thank you."

In other words, a scribbled non-response.


every word i've read about trusts on the internet smells strongly of bullshit

this subject has hit critical mass where it's split into two stubborn camps

I find it very very hard to believe that the "no lawyer" camp is based on legal knowledge instead of cheapness.




Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:44:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By cyborg543:
Originally Posted By Spade:
Originally Posted By DHunter68:
http://ncsilencer.blogspot.com/2011/09/truth-about-nfa-trusts.html

Interesting. I want to do a trust, and $50 sounds WAY better!


Yeah, my LGS had a card from an attorney using all sorts of scary words to try to get you to go the lawyer route....for $400. Seems high for, like, 30 minutes worth of work.

you're not paying for the time spent, you're paying for the expertise

most of the people making their own trusts don't even really understand what a trust is

know-how makes the world go around

You can either expend $400+ to have a lawyer prepare your trust, or expend the time required to learn about trusts and do it yourself.
Which one is best? It depends on your skills and the lawyer's skills.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:49:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:53:31 AM EST by America-first]
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.


Where have I said anything about being denied? NFA reviewers aren't attorneys either, they can't validate a trust.

What happens if you setup a trust with your wife. She decides to take your M16 to the range. For whatever reason, an ATF agent arrests her for illegal possession.

Do you think your skills at filling out Will Maker are enough to evade jail time?

What if you die in a tragic boating accident? Are your skills at filling out will maker going to ensure your collection is passed onto your children?

Yes, lawyers ARE expensive, but good ones are worth every penny. Buying $1000 suppressors, $200 tax stamps, $10,000 machine guns, you can spare $500 to ensure that the trust is found valid in a court of law.

This has nothing to do with getting your stamps. It is about keeping them.


It has everything to do with people who don't understand what a trust actually is and what it does and doesn't offer being frightened by what they don't understand.

If your wife is designated as a trustee along with yourself and/or any other individuals you choose; she will not be arrested for possession or utilization of property owned by the trust.

If you die in a tragic boating accident the remaining trustee retains control of the trust and it's property exactly as before.

When your current trustees die, as we all must someday, the successor trustees take control of the trust and it's assets.

But nothing actually changes hands except control over the trust's assets which continue to be owned by the trust unless the trustees decide to sell them off in whole or part, at their discretion, according to the terms of the trust.



"Real estate, securitites, bank accounts, cars, gold coins, guns, fossilized dinosaur turd collection; all treated the same. "
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:50:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By fettesbrotde:
Did half of you seriously even read the article and see what he's stating?

Look, personally, after my shits approved - IDGAF what happens to my NFA items after I croak off.... that is, if, maybe, possibly, somewhere, somehow I fucked up a small detail in the process.




Same here....I am dead and my wife won't give a crap about the $500 suppressor that I have on my trust versus the $600,000 life insurance policy she is about to claim.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:52:20 AM EST
Hurm....good read!
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:53:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:55:01 AM EST by dbrowne1]
Originally Posted By Bartholomew_Roberts:

. Every time I think about doing NFA trusts for some extra money I think of all those people I used to deal with at gun shows when I worked for an FFL in college and think "Do you want that guy as a client for the next 20-30 years?" - and all for that giant $600 pot of gold too!


Yup. I "could" do this as well and I spent a LOT of time carefully crafting my own, but it's just not worth the bullshit. Lots of non-billable "tire-kicker" calls about how much it costs, why is this better than just just using Quicken Willmaker, blah blah blah, then the risk that the client doesn't follow your instructions on how to use it and a NFA weapon gets someone in trouble. For a $500 fee I can do other things without that headache.

So, DIY trustmakers - knock yourselves out.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:54:05 AM EST
I researched and drafted my own trust - it is not complicated. I understand the content and its objectives perfectly, instead of getting a 15 minute summary and a 'sign/ date' here... now, let's go up front to my notary.

Some people like to use Quicken Will-Maker: I imagine this is perfectly fine... because, I doubt that Intuit wants to be litigated into non-existence because their legal software was junk and full of holes.

At the end of the day, some people like to change their own oil and some people don't. Doesn't involve me... so whatever you choose is fine
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:55:36 AM EST
Originally Posted By fettesbrotde:

Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.


Where have I said anything about being denied? NFA reviewers aren't attorneys either, they can't validate a trust.

What happens if you setup a trust with your wife. She decides to take your M16 to the range. For whatever reason, an ATF agent arrests her for illegal possession.

Do you think your skills at filling out Will Maker are enough to evade jail time?


What if you die in a tragic boating accident? Are your skills at filling out will maker going to ensure your collection is passed onto your children?

Yes, lawyers ARE expensive, but good ones are worth every penny. Buying $1000 suppressors, $200 tax stamps, $10,000 machine guns, you can spare $500 to ensure that the trust is found valid in a court of law.

This has nothing to do with getting your stamps. It is about keeping them.

A lawyer won't avoid jail time in the above scenario as well - you really think he's going to go "WHOOPS I fucked up and you're magically not going to be in jail"?

Reality is you / your wife are going to be stuck in jail until you work through that legal process which will likely take weeks, months, etc.

Must be nice living in a dream world.


Sigh, the point is, which you obviously missed, doing it wrong.

I write software for a living. I don't trust it to spit out legal documents.

But hey, if you want to save $500, more power to you.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 6:58:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 11/19/2012 6:59:43 AM EST by America-first]
Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By fettesbrotde:

Originally Posted By h3smith:
Originally Posted By dwkennedy:
Originally Posted By h3smith:
I never understood why someone would buy thousands of dollars worth of toys, but only spend $50 for will maker to setup a trust.

Derp.


Because lawyers charge way more than $50 for even a basic trust.

Why pay more? Can you name one person that's had their Form 1 or 4 denied due to a trust issue?

Double derp on you.


Where have I said anything about being denied? NFA reviewers aren't attorneys either, they can't validate a trust.

What happens if you setup a trust with your wife. She decides to take your M16 to the range. For whatever reason, an ATF agent arrests her for illegal possession.

Do you think your skills at filling out Will Maker are enough to evade jail time?


What if you die in a tragic boating accident? Are your skills at filling out will maker going to ensure your collection is passed onto your children?

Yes, lawyers ARE expensive, but good ones are worth every penny. Buying $1000 suppressors, $200 tax stamps, $10,000 machine guns, you can spare $500 to ensure that the trust is found valid in a court of law.

This has nothing to do with getting your stamps. It is about keeping them.

A lawyer won't avoid jail time in the above scenario as well - you really think he's going to go "WHOOPS I fucked up and you're magically not going to be in jail"?

Reality is you / your wife are going to be stuck in jail until you work through that legal process which will likely take weeks, months, etc.

Must be nice living in a dream world.


Sigh, the point is, which you obviously missed, doing it wrong.

I write software for a living. I don't trust it to spit out legal documents.

But hey, if you want to save $500, more power to you.


Garbage in, garbage out ........if the individual creating the software has no grasp of what is necessary; but attorneys and accountants use professional software and standard legal forms all the time.
Link Posted: 11/19/2012 7:00:45 AM EST

Originally Posted By h3smith:
––SNIP––

Sigh, the point is, which you obviously missed, doing it wrong.

I write software for a living. I don't trust it to spit out legal documents.

But hey, if you want to save $500, more power to you.

Umm... you might be doing it wrong.

I trust software to safely land jumbo-fucking jets and other fun things... like handle the world's investments and transfers or perform aerial targeting in a combat zone . Spitting out a form letter isn't too far of a stretch. In fact, I would say that Turbo-Tax and Quickbooks have a level of complexity about 10-fold to a Will-Maker application.


Link Posted: 11/19/2012 7:01:20 AM EST
will maker!
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