Posted: 1/9/2010 3:47:13 PM EDT
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Recently my pd approved the use of lasers. I am a not necessarily opposed to lasers but personally I don't see much benefit to them. As a firearms instructor I'm concerned about some of the lesser skilled officers rushing out to get one because of the coolness factor involved without really understanding their usefulness. So I guess what I'm looking for are the arguments for and against the use of lasers for general patrol issue.
Any input would be helpful. Thanks in advance. |
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Contact Crimson Trace and they will send you a package with a good DVD video. I think they have a place although we do not have them. I know an officer that went against a man with an AK on a traffic stop. You have seen his shot up patrol car on the internet. His department issues lasers on duty weapons. I will ask him what if any factor the laser played in his defeating the bad guy.
There is the concern of "laser dependence" that I share but I also believe they can be effective if officers are trained to use them properly. |
| Lasers can be used effectively as a sighting device but it is important that there is an emphasis on training both with and without the laser. They aren't a cure for poor marksmanship and without practice will take much longer to aim with than just plain sights. The shooter ends up "hunting" for the laser instead of just getting a sight picture. They have a place but require training. You can't just slap a laser on a gun and expect to be able to use it effectively. |
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Lasers can be used effectively as a sighting device but it is important that there is an emphasis on training both with and without the laser. They aren't a cure for poor marksmanship and without practice will take much longer to aim with than just plain sights. The shooter ends up "hunting" for the laser instead of just getting a sight picture. They have a place but require training. You can't just slap a laser on a gun and expect to be able to use it effectively. I'll admit I've never used one. But I've heard this more than once, and I can see that happening. |
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Lasers can be used effectively as a sighting device but it is important that there is an emphasis on training both with and without the laser. They aren't a cure for poor marksmanship and without practice will take much longer to aim with than just plain sights. The shooter ends up "hunting" for the laser instead of just getting a sight picture. They have a place but require training. You can't just slap a laser on a gun and expect to be able to use it effectively. I'll admit I've never used one. But I've heard this more than once, and I can see that happening. You aught to see the ones who don't shoot use a laser. They try to line up both the sights and the laser. Not pretty on the line. Money would be better spent with ammo than lasers. I can see a use for SWAT types for the guy behind the shield. But what happens when you have more than one laser lighting stuff up. Who owns which laser. Dan |
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Lasers can be used effectively as a sighting device but it is important that there is an emphasis on training both with and without the laser. They aren't a cure for poor marksmanship and without practice will take much longer to aim with than just plain sights. The shooter ends up "hunting" for the laser instead of just getting a sight picture. They have a place but require training. You can't just slap a laser on a gun and expect to be able to use it effectively. I'll admit I've never used one. But I've heard this more than once, and I can see that happening. You aught to see the ones who don't shoot use a laser. They try to line up both the sights and the laser. Not pretty on the line. Money would be better spent with ammo than lasers. I can see a use for SWAT types for the guy behind the shield. But what happens when you have more than one laser lighting stuff up. Who owns which laser. Dan 
My XD45 has beamz on it. I just use it for the flashlight (Streamlight M6). I've found the laser on the M6 to be very poor at holding zero the few times I've tried. |
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My agency issued the laser max internal laser for a short while. They were bought without consulting the instructors, due to a higher up thinking they were cool. We developed a course that everyone had to go through before using it on duty, that showed the laser's pros and cons and required 2 shooting scenarios that showed that the laser was not to take the place of proper shooting basics.
We had the lasers about 8 months before we, the instructors finally got our way and had them removed and turned back in. If you have a choice go with the Crimson Trace over the laser max, due to the laser max voiding warranties on guns (it replaces the guide rod) and the fact that we had alot of fte and ftf after installing them. Just my .02 |
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Only if they can pass the qual test without them. With 90% or better. Emphasize that lasers are not for the marginal shooters. IMHO they have some training value as a flinch finder, but outside of tactical use (shield man on entry) limited real-world utility. |
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I had a Crimson Trace on my Sig 229 a few years back. Primarily because I was on the SWAT entry team and it made shield use easier.
While on patrol it was a great deterrant. BG's seeing the dot on their own chest or on the back of their buddies head during a felony stop helped them to comply. They do not replace fundamentals of marksmanship though. |
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Only if they can pass the qual test without them. With 90% or better. Emphasize that lasers are not for the marginal shooters. IMHO they have some training value as a flinch finder, but outside of tactical use (shield man on entry) limited real-world utility. Excellent idea. If we ever approve lasers for patrol (our SWAT guys are the only ones with them right now) I'll push for that. |
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They're prohibited for Patrol at my Department, which I don't have a problem with whatsoever. I'm not 100% sure about SWAT, but I think its the same for them. If they were authorized, I still wouldn't use one.
I own one, and it came on my Ruger LCR. I'm OK with it on there as I don't view the LCR as a "precision" type gun (I won't count on making 25 yard head shots with it like I can with my duty gun). It's more of a gut gun and the sights aren't as pronounced as most semi autos. I mostly use it to confirm a solid target when I'm shooting from position 3 or CQB, depending on what you call it. It's an extra tool to use if SHTF |
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The senior instructor went out got one when I beat him during low light qualifications. While I was still on the road, I had two times that I really felt they changed the bad guys mind. One, the bad guy was not fluent in English. The little red dot deescalated the situation.
The next was a guy that started to reach under the seat. Yes, there was a gun under his seat. He told me when he saw the red dot on his face he knew I had him. I think there were five officers of the fifteen that had Crimson Trace on their firearms when I left and two others that wanted them. I really believe in training without them at least 75% of the time. Teach them every mechanical device can fail. Crimson Trace can be zeroed, Lasermax cannot. I can shoot much faster and better in low light with it, than I can with out it. In day light, I shoot faster with out it. Just my .02 |
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I can personally tell you from two seperate on-duty experiences, that I love the laser. First situation was before the Tasers and whatnot came out and we came up on a BG with a knife. BG was about 25 yards away and threatening anyone that got close. I drew my weapon, put the laser on his chest, and told him to look down. He replied, "Kill me you f-in' pig". I told him it wasn't his day to die as I proceeded to lower the laser to his family jewels. Told him to look down and that I wasn't going to kill him, just going to keep him from being able to procreate. He saw the laser down south and dropped the knife like he had something to lose.
The second situation was one that we got a call of a suspicion person. Came up on someone in the alley and it was quite dark. We were wearing soft clothes and approached someone that fit the descrip with our badges out around our neck. The person stood up real quick and said to get the fuck back or we were gonna be sorry. My partner and I both drew down, I put the laser on his chest, and then reached for my light. As I lit up the guy (with my light you bozo's), I saw he had a video camera. My partner said later that he thought it was a weapon, but couldn't make it out. I was able to keep an eye on the potential threat, and knew that my weapon was pretty much aimed in center mass, without having to shift my focus from my sights to the BG. I don't believe in using the laser as an aiming tool every time, but it sure makes it easier to focus on the BG when you can see the laser dancing on his/ her chest. If you have to make a quick shot with follow-ups, it's much eaiser to do it that way IMHO. Just my $.02. Hope it helps. -SS |
| I like them as a training aid to show how f'ed up a trigger pull is during dry fire. If there is some good target focused training to go with it maybe but I think sight alignment, sight picture and trigger press will be here for a long time. Shield work they are good. |
| For duty use I think it could be a good tool to have. I gave my wife a 38 special with the CT grips. She loves it and it makes low light shooting fun for her. As a self defense tool it is great as it provides that little bit of illumination to help id the target and still give you the ability to engage the target. She still shoots with the sights, but it is still another option made available. |
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I am not a firearms instructor but this is my limited experience with the use of lasers for aiming, If you are not proficent using the sights of your handgun, they can sometimes actually be less accurate and slower on target trying to aim with just the laser. Again this is my limited experience messing around at the range with one.
J- |
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I am not a firearms instructor but this is my limited experience with the use of lasers for aiming, If you are not proficent using the sights of your handgun, they can sometimes actually be less accurate and slower on target trying to aim with just the laser. Again this is my limited experience messing around at the range with one. J- True that. People get in the mind set of looking for the little red dot. Instead of evaluating the rapidly deteriorating situation in front of them and super imposing the front sight on the target. |
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Only if they can pass the qual test without them. With 90% or better. Emphasize that lasers are not for the marginal shooters. IMHO they have some training value as a flinch finder, but outside of tactical use (shield man on entry) limited real-world utility. Excellent idea. If we ever approve lasers for patrol (our SWAT guys are the only ones with them right now) I'll push for that. Only if you make everyone else qualify at 90%. Gotta keep things equal and not discriminate against people with lasers. You could wind up creating a new protected class of people. 
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