Posted: 10/24/2002 8:19:08 PM EDT
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While I was away on business, Goatboy caught me on my cell in a hotel lobby Wed night. We spoke of his upcoming group purchase of a special AK & a desire to use that sale as a starting point to offer AR15s at cost to AR15.COM members. Offering low cost ARs was the idea from the start of the LEGP© project, to add some value to members of the site & AR15.COM [u]IS[/u] his name to use. For that reason we have always paid to the owners of the site for an ad banner and a $10 fee for every firearm sold. We were paying for the rights to use the name & market to the site. Due to my ability to spread, reduce & decrease operating & logistical expenses we could pull off the LEGP©. It was a rewarding as well as enlightening project & along the way we even managed to lose money each year. While doing the LEGP© & since we were dedicated to the site & know the high costs of running the site, we included a server fund donation spot within each sale. Many of you generous members (& non members) graciously made donations of over $2500.00. Goatboy & I also spoke of a desire by staff & Admin to distance the site from Castle Arms due to repeated complaints and not wanting to be held accountable for Castle’s actions. Some of the complaints may certainly be merited and many more may just be petty jealousy. Lately, most is rehashing water long under the bridge, some can’t seem to let it go but such is human nature. I realize the site doesn’t want to show favoritism to any manufacturer & perhaps nor should it to any dealer. Although as a dealer I want to make clear every time we sold guns using AR15.COM’s name, we paid for a banner ad & a fee to the site owners & this is more than any others have done that I am aware of. Pooling purchasing power is a good concept, most often used in buying groups or co-ops & I expect Goatboy will learn (like few of you) much of what we have absorbed & the effort we put into the past 2 LEGP© sales. It wasn’t a labor for profit, rather one of satisfaction. We may continue to offer some large volume discounted prices on firearms in the future but for the near future prefer to concentrate upon the Black Rifle Convention. |
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It's a sad state of affairs, but I suppose business is business. It's just a shame that it ended the way it did. I do hope that [b]this[/b] thread doesn't turn into a childish flamefest like GB's thread did. Still looking forward to BRC 03!! ColtShorty "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them." |
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I will say that bringing the rifle projects home will allow us more flexibility as well as provide for a return to the group buy mentality. Castle has done a wonderful job and our focus will be in getting great deals for great prices to put more toys in everyone's hands! As John mentioned, $10 from each 2002 LEGP was donated to the site. While sales were a bit low, we expect next year's rifle to appeal to a large audience and hopefully be too good to pass up! The upcoming AKs have already gotten me excited enough that 2 will have a home in my collection. Continue to be excited about this, we're expecting to take things to a new level very soon and for years to come! |
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Quoted: I would like to add my appreciation for the many projects that John and Tim have taken and completed in the past. I too appreciate the time and effort these two gentlemen have made to the well being of AR15.com. Thanks guys. I should also re-state the fact that there are no personal feuds or animosity between us. This is very good news. This place would be reduced without their presence. |
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I'm glad much of the panic has been replaced with understanding. This isn't a conflict, just a parting of ways. Regarding the new projects, AR15.Com will not benefit from the sale of the rifles financially. We've made it clear to the parties involved in producing the AK and the next AR rifle. Our goal is to get a great gun for as low a price as possible to everyone. We will accept donations with rifle purchases, but in no way will it be mandatory for anyone. These projects are about using our strengths to support the community while getting great deals. Just knowing that we're all in this together and that we can offer this type of service to everyone is all that matters. In the same breath I will also add that this is a large reason for the engraving of the rifles with a neutral logo. We do not wish to limit just the members of this site to a wonderful purchase and do not have a need to generate direct publicity for the site by engraving our name on it. We want to create something special for everyone and help remove the animosity some sites and some people feel towards each other. I will always cherish my LEGPs, but I'm also excited looking at the bigger picture. Strengthening our position as firearm owners, especially in times like these, is our greatest profit. I look forward to continuing what Castle started and taking it to new heights. |
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Quoted: In the same breath I will also add that this is a large reason for the[red] engraving of the rifles with a neutral logo[/red]. We do not wish to limit just the members of this site to a wonderful purchase and do not have a need to generate direct publicity for the site by engraving our name on it. While I admire your intentions to go beyond the limits of the site boundaries,I think one of the reasons for getting an LEGP-at least for me-is to have a 5 year series of limited rifles with AR15.com engraved on them. The reason is simple.10-20 years down the line we could tell our children and grandchildren what AR15.com meant to us. How it is/was a place where friends -some of which did not know each other-gathered every day to exchange information,discuss ideas,organized shoots,etc. Some of us will tell of the Fluffy and burning backpack stories and reminisce about good times at the BRC,Texas meeting,Bulletfest,our NYC heroes during 9/11 and many other things. [blue]In summary: [/blue] [b]I would like to retain the AR15.com limited edition engraved in the lower.[/b] If others, who are not members of the site buy it for the great value and do not care about the memories,the manufacturer would be more than happy to NOT ENGRAVE a number/logo on them! |
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Quoted: [blue]In summary: [/blue] [b]I would like to retain the AR15.com limited edition engraved in the lower.[/b] I wholeheartedly agree! Yes the LEGP's are great guns for great prices, but that is not the reason I am buying them. This great website & it's members are like family to me & many, many others & the AR15.com engraving on the rifles make an exceptionally special bond between all of us & the site. Maybe after the 5 year plan, changes could be made, but I feel we should keep the engraving intact until then. ColtShorty "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them." |
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Quoted: Quoted: In the same breath I will also add that this is a large reason for the[red] engraving of the rifles with a neutral logo[/red]. We do not wish to limit just the members of this site to a wonderful purchase and do not have a need to generate direct publicity for the site by engraving our name on it. While I admire your intentions to go beyond the limits of the site boundaries,I think one of the reasons for getting an LEGP-at least for me-is to have a 5 year series of limited rifles with AR15.com engraved on them. The reason is simple.10-20 years down the line we could tell our children and grandchildren what AR15.com meant to us. How it is/was a place where friends -some of which did not know each other-gathered every day to exchange information,discuss ideas,organized shoots,etc. Some of us will tell of the Fluffy and burning backpack stories and reminisce about good times at the BRC,Texas meeting,Bulletfest,our NYC heroes during 9/11 and many other things. [blue]In summary: [/blue] [b]I would like to retain the AR15.com limited edition engraved in the lower.[/b] If others who are not members of the site buy it for the great value and not care about the memories,the manufacturer would be more than happy to NOT TO ENGRAVE a number/logo on them! Have to agree with Ed on this one. Really... I HAVE to... he is blackmailing me... [:D] While my feelings on the Castle Arms/AR15.com situation are mixed (no way I can make BOTH shooting events since even making ONE of them will be problematic), I think the 5 year series should go as planned and with the same numbers and engraving showing that it IS A SERIES of limited edition AR15.com rifles - as long as that does not step on any toes at Castle Arms since they may have designed the logo or something. Maybe a poll of current LEGP owners could decide it? I would even go for replacing the 2003 AR15 with an AK engraved as the 2003 AR15.com LEGP - and hopefully an AR10 before the series is through[:)] The reason I say this is because for those of us that are set on buying ALL of the LEGPs, 5 post-ban AR15s may be hard to justify. There might be better participation if different rifles were offered as the numbered LEGP series... just a thought. I am still in no matter what is decided. (Begging, scraping, borrowing, and looking under the couch cushions to make it possible[:)] ) |
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While I think that having AR15.Com engraved on the ARs is fine, how about the AKs or any other project we do? I think that by creating a product line or branding and we make it synonymous with the site, then we can accomplish both things. Either way, the previous logo will be abandoned whether or not we decide to keep the AR15.Com name on the rifles. Have faith in my ideas and artistic talents, you shall not be disappointed. [=D] |
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Well you know I will go along with whatever is decided, just wanted to get my "vote" in. I was not going to post on any threads concerning Castle Arms and AR15.com because I feel torn, but anyone who reads my posts knows I cannot resist a chance to push an AR10 LEGP [:)] Perhaps this belongs in another thread, but for what it is worth, I consider John, Tim, and Juan as good people and good friends. I don't want to be caught in the middle of any disagreements nor do I want any of my ideas/comments to cause a problem. I brought up the artwork to help avoid a possible problem later, not to initiate anything... Goatboy, as far as your artistic abilities... Do we really want you to do it? Maybe EdAvilaSr has some examples of your artwork from - say - kindergarten he can post as examples?[:D] |
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Times change people and so do graphics and names... Somehow I doubt the engraved logo is essential to keeping people interested in good deals on firearms. [=)] [i]In addition, from an earlier post in here, it doesnt look like Tim want's to allow us the use of the current logo. Either way, I want a fresh start and a fresh look. [=)][/i] |
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I've been contacted by several concerning retaining artwork. The interesting point I meant was how to keep everyone happy. The Limited Edition Group Purchase© was meant & sold as a 5 year project to benefit AR15.COM members & AR enthusists. The artwork was developed to keep some connection with each year's edition. While I drove to the Southern Shoot, I gave this some thought & decided since this is artwork developed by our company & Goatboy & I agreed that LEGP© is Castle's, the project will have to continue without the AR15.COM in the logo, those who want future rifles with same artwork should get OK from both parties. We don't have any problem with this. Artwork & engraving isn't free so perhaps a small fee split between Castle & AR15.COM is the solution for those who want to retain the same artwork for any future firearms. |
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Quoted: The Limited Edition Group Purchase© As I mentioned before. This is the reason why the logo will not be used. The copyright notice was placed to protect the artwork and name... why? More on this later in the post. While I drove to the Southern Shoot, I gave this some thought & decided since this is artwork developed by our company & Goatboy & I agreed that LEGP© is Castle's, the project will have to continue without the AR15.COM in the logo, those who want future rifles with same artwork should get OK from both parties. At this time I will not allow the use of the logo unless a company is willing to work with us to verify the overhead they are going to charge members. This applies not only to the "LEGPs", but to all products. I don't mind the logo or name being used, or a small charge for work/effort by someone into a project, but I want to ensure that the community is getting a quality product for as good a price as possible. From this point forward, I cannot allow the AR15.Com name/logo to be used on any future Castle Arms projects without my express [b]written[/b] permission. (We need to hold ourselves accountable for everything the name is used to sell, buy, or advertise.) Artwork & engraving isn't free so perhaps a small fee split between Castle & AR15.COM is the solution for those who want to retain the same artwork for any future firearms. Again, this logo can be put to rest. Castle Arms wants to protect the name "LEGP" and has clearly talked about "fee split" regarding it's use. I want to clarify now, that future special configuration rifles will be engraved with a new logo (with or without the AR15.Com name on them, depending on the project) with no price tag on it. Engraving is a small cost addition which will be taken into account for the sale price of the item. Since the rifles will come from AR15.Com there is no need to charge ANYTHING to protect our name rights. We will also be working with the top names in the business to produce these projects with the simple goals of donating our time and effort and getting EVERYONE the same great deal. This project is meant for everyone, I can't say that enough. Since we have no employees or time to account for, we can enjoy putting the projects together with [b]ZERO[/b] overhead. |
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Castle Arms is saying they own the "image" and "LEGP" name. I am saying that they do not have permission to use the site name or logo without my permission. Basically we do not want profiting from the rifles. It would have been nice to see Castle say we could use the logo for free though, wouldn't it? [=D] Either way, we want to move away from the project and name in the future. This is why a new name is being discussed, along with a new logo for the engraving. |
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Quoted: Castle Arms is saying they own the "image" and "LEGP" name. I am saying that they do not have permission to use the site name or logo without my permission. Oh, copyright laws, interesting... [b]WHO CAN CLAIM COPYRIGHT[/b] Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright. [i]In the case of works made for hire, the [b]employer and not the employee[/b] is considered to be the author. [/i]Section 101 of the copyright law defines a "work made for hire" as: (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or [b](2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as: a contribution to a collective work [/b] a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work a translation a supplementary work a compilation an instructional text a test answer material for a test an atlas if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire.... [i]The authors of a joint work are co-owners of the copyright in the work, unless there is an agreement to the contrary.[/i] Copyright in each separate contribution to a periodical or other collective work is distinct from copyright in the collective work as a whole and vests initially with the author of the contribution. [b]Two General Principles[/b] Mere ownership of a book, manuscript, painting, or any other copy or phonorecord does not give the possessor the copyright. The law provides that transfer of ownership of any material object that embodies a protected work does not of itself convey any rights in the copyright. Minors may claim copyright, but state laws may regulate the business dealings involving copyrights owned by minors. For information on relevant state laws, consult an attorney. [url]http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc[/url] TRG |
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Quoted: Has anyone considered that the LEGP's may not be a profitable venture at all? Being in business to not make money never paid anyones rent. Really, who here has a day job they do for free just because they like their employer that much? That's my point! We are not a business here, but a collection of enthusiasts. Since all our time is donated, we don't have to account for any of it, thus allowing us to pass the deals on to everyone. If I considered charging even HALF of my time for the work I put in here, the site wouldn't exist. It's not my job, it's what I do in my free time, when I have free time! Our goals are to be shared in all our projects from any shoots we sponsor to any items we sell. Yes a dealer or manufacturer has to make money, but the middle man (namely us) does not. Our enjoyment comes as everyone's else's... from being able to purchase a rifle at a great deal! |
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Quoted: Quoted: Has anyone considered that the LEGP's may not be a profitable venture at all? Being in business to not make money never paid anyones rent. Really, who here has a day job they do for free just because they like their employer that much? That's my point! We are not a business here, but a collection of enthusiasts. Since all our time is donated, we don't have to account for any of it, thus allowing us to pass the deals on to everyone. If I considered charging even HALF of my time for the work I put in here, the site wouldn't exist. It's not my job, it's what I do in my free time, when I have free time! Our goals are to be shared in all our projects from any shoots we sponsor to any items we sell. Yes a dealer or manufacturer has to make money, but the middle man (namely us) does not. Our enjoyment comes as everyone's else's... from being able to purchase a rifle at a great deal! You said the dealer or manufacturer has to make money. Maybe I don't understand..but tell me if this is correct: So are you saying that the manufacturer will ship the new limited edition rifle from the factory to the person buying it. Or....are you saying that you have an FFL who will order, receive, and ship the rifles for free? Just wondering. medcop |
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I consider FFL charges outside the scope of the price. When you buy a rifle it's rarely included in the price is it not? I'm saying that acting as the middle man we don't want to add another cost to the rifles. The guns may ship from the manufacturers, or they may go out an FFL. Our time and trouble is being given to the project, not charged. If a rifle is being done by a gunsmith or dealer, then they will be the source. If it's being done by a manufacturer, then they will be the source. The profits associated with the sale of the rifles (ie the deal we can secure) will be the only charge we would like to see. (With the exception of tax, shipping, FFL, or whatever else may need to happen to get them to you!) [=)] |
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I must protest.©[:D]©[:D]©[:D]©[:D]©[:D]©[:D] [img]http://www.rebelman.de/images/smilie.gif[/img] Whenever [b]my family name[/b](IBTL)© is invoked on this here © website, I insist upon cash being sent to my LAAGP (Limited Age/Alcohol Grope Plunder) fund ©. IBTL[b]1[/b] © [img]http://dvdworldonline.com/images3/Evil_Twin_DC.jpg[/img] |
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tim and john are great people. i have a genuine appreciation for all they have done for the shooting sports. i will be at the next brc with a smile on my face...seeing old FRIENDS always does that for me! yes, tim and john are more than aquaintances. they are my friends. the avila's have done likewise, in different areas. the effort and expense of starting up and maintaining a growing firearm board is immense. the fact that it is done out of dedication and love for our sport just amazes me. i'll also be at the ar15 convention. the avila's are my friends, also. the legp (or whatever nomenclature it ends up bearing) kalashnikov is the result of the hard work of many people on this board...starting with tim and ending up with an entire group of folks that saw it thru. i'll be the first in line to order one. |
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Quoted: I consider FFL charges outside the scope of the price. When you buy a rifle it's rarely included in the price is it not? I'm saying that acting as the middle man we don't want to add another cost to the rifles. The guns may ship from the manufacturers, or they may go out an FFL. Our time and trouble is being given to the project, not charged. If a rifle is being done by a gunsmith or dealer, then they will be the source. If it's being done by a manufacturer, then they will be the source. The profits associated with the sale of the rifles (ie the deal we can secure) will be the only charge we would like to see. (With the exception of tax, shipping, FFL, or whatever else may need to happen to get them to you!) [=)] Okay..got it. [:D] I was sorta' confused. Thank GB. medcop |
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Quoted: i'm blessed with many things in life...but friendship tops the list. I could not agree more!!! AR15.com has been and continues to be a vestibule for which I have met many like minded individuals and "characters". [:D] To Juan, Ed, Tim and John...I Salute [beer] |
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