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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 10/24/2002 8:19:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2002 8:01:14 AM EDT by Grin_N_Barrett]
While I was away on business, Goatboy caught me on my cell in a hotel lobby Wed night. We spoke of his upcoming group purchase of a special AK & a desire to use that sale as a starting point to offer AR15s at cost to AR15.COM members. Offering low cost ARs was the idea from the start of the LEGP© project, to add some value to members of the site & AR15.COM [u]IS[/u] his name to use. For that reason we have always paid to the owners of the site for an ad banner and a $10 fee for every firearm sold. We were paying for the rights to use the name & market to the site. Due to my ability to spread, reduce & decrease operating & logistical expenses we could pull off the LEGP©. It was a rewarding as well as enlightening project & along the way we even managed to lose money each year. While doing the LEGP© & since we were dedicated to the site & know the high costs of running the site, we included a server fund donation spot within each sale. Many of you generous members (& non members) graciously made donations of over $2500.00. Goatboy & I also spoke of a desire by staff & Admin to distance the site from Castle Arms due to repeated complaints and not wanting to be held accountable for Castle’s actions. Some of the complaints may certainly be merited and many more may just be petty jealousy. Lately, most is rehashing water long under the bridge, some can’t seem to let it go but such is human nature. I realize the site doesn’t want to show favoritism to any manufacturer & perhaps nor should it to any dealer. Although as a dealer I want to make clear every time we sold guns using AR15.COM’s name, we paid for a banner ad & a fee to the site owners & this is more than any others have done that I am aware of. Pooling purchasing power is a good concept, most often used in buying groups or co-ops & I expect Goatboy will learn (like few of you) much of what we have absorbed & the effort we put into the past 2 LEGP© sales. It wasn’t a labor for profit, rather one of satisfaction. We may continue to offer some large volume discounted prices on firearms in the future but for the near future prefer to concentrate upon the Black Rifle Convention.
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 9:11:25 PM EDT
It's a sad state of affairs, but I suppose business is business. It's just a shame that it ended the way it did. I do hope that [b]this[/b] thread doesn't turn into a childish flamefest like GB's thread did. Still looking forward to BRC 03!! ColtShorty "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 10/24/2002 9:39:56 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 5:40:23 AM EDT
The AK purchase should be a good launching point.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 6:02:53 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 6:06:35 AM EDT
I wonder if we will get to keep the number we had with the LEGP. I kinda like sweet 16 for a number. [smoke]
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 6:11:12 AM EDT
OK my heart is starting to move from my stomach back into my chest. My prayers will be for all concerned for reasons I stated in another post. Love you all.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 6:17:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2002 6:18:08 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 6:58:06 AM EDT
It's not personal.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 7:03:47 AM EDT
,,,,,,,, A-K-A....."GROWTH"..........[:)]
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 7:04:19 AM EDT
"It's not called show-[i][b]friends[/i][/b], it's show[b]business[/b]."
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 7:34:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr: I would like to add my appreciation for the many projects that John and Tim have taken and completed in the past.
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I too appreciate the time and effort these two gentlemen have made to the well being of AR15.com. Thanks guys.
I should also re-state the fact that there are no personal feuds or animosity between us.
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This is very good news. This place would be reduced without their presence.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 8:23:16 AM EDT
Thx for the support Johnny. Watch our Industry Forum for further sales
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 8:38:34 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 8:52:40 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2002 8:53:28 AM EDT by dave223]
I would like to take time to thank John for allowing me the opportunity (through his generosity) to acquire my highly prized 1st year LEGP. Thanks John and Tim for all the hard work you guys did for us and the LEGP projects.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 9:08:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 9:09:03 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 9:37:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2002 10:14:33 AM EDT by EdAvilaSr]
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 9:46:55 AM EDT
Well stated Ed sr.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 10:00:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By EdAvilaSr: [blue]In summary: [/blue] [b]I would like to retain the AR15.com limited edition engraved in the lower.[/b]
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I wholeheartedly agree! Yes the LEGP's are great guns for great prices, but that is not the reason I am buying them. This great website & it's members are like family to me & many, many others & the AR15.com engraving on the rifles make an exceptionally special bond between all of us & the site. Maybe after the 5 year plan, changes could be made, but I feel we should keep the engraving intact until then. ColtShorty "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to other people and I require the same from them."
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 10:14:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 11:57:09 AM EDT
The artwork does bring up intersting point
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 12:11:29 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 12:17:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 12:34:33 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 1:29:28 PM EDT
I HAVE to have the same art work otherwise my collection is not a collection, my purchases were with that in mind.
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 2:35:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2002 2:47:14 PM EDT by GoatBoy]
Link Posted: 10/25/2002 4:40:37 PM EDT
Maybe a poll of current LEGP owners could decide it? That didn't get very far did it.
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 9:02:41 AM EDT
I've been contacted by several concerning retaining artwork. The interesting point I meant was how to keep everyone happy. The Limited Edition Group Purchase© was meant & sold as a 5 year project to benefit AR15.COM members & AR enthusists. The artwork was developed to keep some connection with each year's edition. While I drove to the Southern Shoot, I gave this some thought & decided since this is artwork developed by our company & Goatboy & I agreed that LEGP© is Castle's, the project will have to continue without the AR15.COM in the logo, those who want future rifles with same artwork should get OK from both parties. We don't have any problem with this. Artwork & engraving isn't free so perhaps a small fee split between Castle & AR15.COM is the solution for those who want to retain the same artwork for any future firearms.
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 1:14:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 2:27:14 PM EDT
So am I understanding this correctly, that ar15.com may not be able to put ar15.com on any future group purchases because Castle Arms supposedly holds the rights to using ar15.com engraving on rifles?
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 2:44:10 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 3:03:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: Castle Arms is saying they own the "image" and "LEGP" name. I am saying that they do not have permission to use the site name or logo without my permission.
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Oh, copyright laws, interesting... [b]WHO CAN CLAIM COPYRIGHT[/b] Copyright protection subsists from the time the work is created in fixed form. The copyright in the work of authorship immediately becomes the property of the author who created the work. Only the author or those deriving their rights through the author can rightfully claim copyright. [i]In the case of works made for hire, the [b]employer and not the employee[/b] is considered to be the author. [/i]Section 101 of the copyright law defines a "work made for hire" as: (1) a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or [b](2) a work specially ordered or commissioned for use as: a contribution to a collective work [/b] a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work a translation a supplementary work a compilation an instructional text a test answer material for a test an atlas if the parties expressly agree in a written instrument signed by them that the work shall be considered a work made for hire.... [i]The authors of a joint work are co-owners of the copyright in the work, unless there is an agreement to the contrary.[/i] Copyright in each separate contribution to a periodical or other collective work is distinct from copyright in the collective work as a whole and vests initially with the author of the contribution. [b]Two General Principles[/b] Mere ownership of a book, manuscript, painting, or any other copy or phonorecord does not give the possessor the copyright. The law provides that transfer of ownership of any material object that embodies a protected work does not of itself convey any rights in the copyright. Minors may claim copyright, but state laws may regulate the business dealings involving copyrights owned by minors. For information on relevant state laws, consult an attorney. [url]http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#hsc[/url] TRG
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 3:11:39 PM EDT
Has anyone considered that the LEGP's may not be a profitable venture at all? Being in business to not make money never paid anyones rent. Really, who here has a day job they do for free just because they like their employer that much?
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 3:45:26 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/28/2002 8:44:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2002 8:45:43 PM EDT by medcop]
Originally Posted By GoatBoy:
Originally Posted By urodoji: Has anyone considered that the LEGP's may not be a profitable venture at all? Being in business to not make money never paid anyones rent. Really, who here has a day job they do for free just because they like their employer that much?
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That's my point! We are not a business here, but a collection of enthusiasts. Since all our time is donated, we don't have to account for any of it, thus allowing us to pass the deals on to everyone. If I considered charging even HALF of my time for the work I put in here, the site wouldn't exist. It's not my job, it's what I do in my free time, when I have free time! Our goals are to be shared in all our projects from any shoots we sponsor to any items we sell. Yes a dealer or manufacturer has to make money, but the middle man (namely us) does not. Our enjoyment comes as everyone's else's... from being able to purchase a rifle at a great deal!
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You said the dealer or manufacturer has to make money. Maybe I don't understand..but tell me if this is correct: So are you saying that the manufacturer will ship the new limited edition rifle from the factory to the person buying it. Or....are you saying that you have an FFL who will order, receive, and ship the rifles for free? Just wondering. medcop
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 4:45:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 5:39:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2002 5:55:02 AM EDT by IBTL]
I must protest.©[:D]©[:D]©[:D]©[:D]©[:D]©[:D] [img]http://www.rebelman.de/images/smilie.gif[/img] Whenever [b]my family name[/b](IBTL)© is invoked on this here © website, I insist upon cash being sent to my LAAGP (Limited Age/Alcohol Grope Plunder) fund ©. IBTL[b]1[/b] © [img]http://dvdworldonline.com/images3/Evil_Twin_DC.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 6:47:11 AM EDT
tim and john are great people. i have a genuine appreciation for all they have done for the shooting sports. i will be at the next brc with a smile on my face...seeing old FRIENDS always does that for me! yes, tim and john are more than aquaintances. they are my friends. the avila's have done likewise, in different areas. the effort and expense of starting up and maintaining a growing firearm board is immense. the fact that it is done out of dedication and love for our sport just amazes me. i'll also be at the ar15 convention. the avila's are my friends, also. the legp (or whatever nomenclature it ends up bearing) kalashnikov is the result of the hard work of many people on this board...starting with tim and ending up with an entire group of folks that saw it thru. i'll be the first in line to order one.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 6:52:26 AM EDT
Thanks for your kind words Bob! [:)]
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 7:04:14 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/29/2002 7:05:35 AM EDT by CAMPYBOB]
loyalty to the avila's and to you and john run deeper than my desire to own an inanimate chunk of steel and wood/aluminum and plastic. i'm blessed with many things in life...but friendship tops the list.
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 11:48:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By GoatBoy: I consider FFL charges outside the scope of the price. When you buy a rifle it's rarely included in the price is it not? I'm saying that acting as the middle man we don't want to add another cost to the rifles. The guns may ship from the manufacturers, or they may go out an FFL. Our time and trouble is being given to the project, not charged. If a rifle is being done by a gunsmith or dealer, then they will be the source. If it's being done by a manufacturer, then they will be the source. The profits associated with the sale of the rifles (ie the deal we can secure) will be the only charge we would like to see. (With the exception of tax, shipping, FFL, or whatever else may need to happen to get them to you!) [=)]
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Okay..got it. [:D] I was sorta' confused. Thank GB. medcop
Link Posted: 10/29/2002 5:40:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By CAMPYBOB: i'm blessed with many things in life...but friendship tops the list.
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I could not agree more!!! AR15.com has been and continues to be a vestibule for which I have met many like minded individuals and "characters". [:D] To Juan, Ed, Tim and John...I Salute [beer]
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