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Posted: 5/21/2005 12:29:32 PM EDT

KABUL, Afghanistan - Hours before flying to Washington for talks with
President Bush, Afghan leader Hamid Karzai demanded greater control Saturday over American military operations in his country and called for vigorous punishment of any U.S. troops who mistreat prisoners.

He also said he wants the United States to hand over all Afghan prisoners still in U.S. custody.

In a volatile southern province, meanwhile, a U.S. soldier was killed and three were wounded in the latest in a string of attacks launched by loyalists of the ousted Taliban regime.

Speaking to reporters before his first visit to the United States since he was installed in December as
Afghanistan's first democratically elected president, Karzai demanded more say over operations by the 16,700 U.S. troops still in the country, including an end to raids on the homes of Afghan unless his government was notified beforehand.

"No operations inside Afghanistan should take place without the consultation of the Afghan government," the told reporters.

Karzai — seen by his critics as an American puppet — issued the tough statement after fresh reports of prisoner abuse by American forces at Bagram, the main military prison north of Kabul, and anti-U.S. riots that broke out across the country earlier this month, leaving at least 15 people dead.

The unrest was triggered by a Newsweek magazine report, later retracted, that the Quran was defiled by interrogators at the U.S. prison at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, and likely further fueled by long-standing complaints of heavy-handed search operations and the deaths of civilians in U.S. operations in Afghanistan.

There were fears a report in Friday's New York Times, based on the Army's criminal investigation into the December 2002 deaths of two Afghans at Bagram, could re-ignite anti-American manifestations.

Karzai said he was "shocked" by allegations of prisoner abuse by poorly trained U.S. soldiers at Bagram and vowed to raise the issue during his four-day U.S. visit that begins Sunday.

"We want the U.S. government to take very, very strong action to take away people like that (who) are working with their forces in Afghanistan," Karzai said. "Definitely ... I will see about that when I am in the United States."

Responding to the abuse allegations, Col. James Yonts, the U.S. military spokesman in Afghanistan, said: "The command has made it very clear that any incidents of abuse will not be tolerated."

In Washington, White House spokesman Trent Duffy said the president was "alarmed by the reports of prisoner abuse," and wants them thoroughly investigated. Duffy said seven people were being investigated about abuse at Bagram.

The Times' allegations of maltreatment were supported by Human Rights Watch, a New York-based watchdog, which said that at least six detainees in U.S. custody in Afghanistan have been killed since 2002.

"U.S. forces in Afghanistan were involved in killings, torture and other abuses of prisoners," it said in a statement.

"These crimes, known to senior officials in the military and
Central Intelligence Agency, have not still been adequately investigated or prosecuted."

In December,
Pentagon officials said that eight deaths of detainees in Afghanistan — including the two mentioned in the Times report — had been investigated since mid-2002. Hundreds of people were detained during and after the campaign by U.S.-led forces to oust the hardline Taliban regime in late 2001.

After the outcry over abuse at the Abu Ghraib prison in
Iraq, the military also initiated a review of its detention facilities in Afghanistan and later said it had modified some of its procedures, although the review's findings have not been made public.

Also, an Italian aid worker kidnapped in Kabul spent her sixth day in captivity on Saturday, still with no clear word on her fate.

Taliban-led rebels kept up assaults in the south and east of the country. A roadside bomb killed one U.S. soldier and wounded three others as they patrolled in an armored vehicle in Zabul province, the U.S. military said. A purported spokesman for the Taliban claimed responsibility.

A mine explosion in southern Kandahar province wounded four Afghan soldiers, while a two-hour gunbattle between Taliban rebels and Afghan forces in Zabul left two insurgents dead, officials said.

In Ghazni province, four people driving to a wedding were killed and four others were wounded when an old land mine exploded under their vehicle, said police chief Gen. Abdul Rahman Sarjang.

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:31:05 PM EDT

He is the (legally) democratically elected
leader of the country. It is not our place to
"find a replacement."

Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:32:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
He is the (legally) democratically elected
leader of the country. It is not our place to
"find a replacement."



Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:36:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By olyarms:

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
He is the (legally) democratically elected
leader of the country. It is not our place to
"find a replacement."






Well, christ, everyone knows that he is
a puppet. Do we have to rub it in everyone's
faces by "replacing" him?

Some semblance of self-rule would be
good for the region.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:40:29 PM EDT
Translation of the above…

The Americans are treating them to well let us have them
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:42:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TheCynic:
He is the (legally) democratically elected
Puppet leader of the country. It is not our place to
"find a replacement."





Fixed it for ya!

ANdy
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:43:35 PM EDT
No, but we should suggest being rid of the stupid coat/cape [whatever] with the arms that go to the knees.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:45:17 PM EDT
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:47:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.


Um how the hell did he get in office again? Than who gave him such a great image. We are the USA and he is our puppet. When he opens his mouth in such a way I say we find a way to get rid of him. Our own President wouldn't speak in such a way, its simply respect to keep your mouth shut.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:47:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



Just a polite reminder, a fair bit of British & Australian 'blood and treasure' was used too…

ANdy
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:48:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



Just a polite reminder, a fair bit of British & Australian 'blood and treasure' was used too…

ANdy


+1 I think people forget it's not just the USA fighting these wars.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:49:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



Just a polite reminder, a fair bit of British & Australian 'blood and treasure' was used too…

ANdy



Maybe you ought to remember to, I think you know better.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:49:32 PM EDT
Funny, does anyone really think that the Afgan's are going to be kinder to the prisoners who were so-called abused. Last I checked, Kindness isn't in the Afgan Lexicon.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:50:20 PM EDT
BINGO...

We have a winner...
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:52:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



Just a polite reminder, a fair bit of British & Australian 'blood and treasure' was used too…

ANdy



Andy, if he had said it is time for the British to replace Karzia, then British blood and treasure would have been wasted.
I don't think we should shit on our own values, or our allies' value for that matter.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:55:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



Just a polite reminder, a fair bit of British & Australian 'blood and treasure' was used too…

ANdy



Maybe you ought to remember to, I think you know better.



I suppose I do… but the reality on the ground is Karzai is only in power because we want him to be…

He's the 'western friendly' choice, but if Ahmed Shah Massoud had not been assassinated it would be him running the show with our backing.

ANdy
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 12:58:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 12:59:21 PM EDT by Max_Mike]

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By Max_Mike:

Originally Posted By vito113:

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



Just a polite reminder, a fair bit of British & Australian 'blood and treasure' was used too…

ANdy



Maybe you ought to remember to, I think you know better.



I suppose I do… but the reality on the ground is Karzai is only in power because we want him to be…

He's the 'western friendly' choice, but if Ahmed Shah Massoud had not been assassinated it would be him running the show with our backing.

ANdy



I knew you did...

This kind of crap devalues every life lost to make those FREE elections possible in Afghanistan… American, British, Australian, Afghan, ect…

The Afghan people did vote and elect him, no matter weather we wanted him or not.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:03:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By krpind:
You can laugh all you want, olyarms.

Democracy means something to most of us. It will be up to the Afgan people to replace him....if we do it, after he was elected, we would have WASTED every drop of American blood and treasure used in liberating that country from the Taliban.



+1

Some people seem to forget that the former rulers of Afghanistan were never elected by the people and were barely even a "government" in the normal sense of the word.

It is a completely different thing to overthrow a legitimate elected leader, than to help oust a group like the Taliban who held the country in a state of semi-anarchy, semi-reign of terror, and ... oh yeah ... harbored those who planned the murder of thousands of Americans.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Funny, does anyone really think that the Afgan's are going to be kinder to the prisoners who were so-called abused. Last I checked, Kindness isn't in the Afgan Lexicon.



It makes a huge difference whether they're being detained and potentially abused by a foreign military, or by their own government.

Besides - Afghanistan has to stand on its own at some point. This is a reasonable step.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:21:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ben70:

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Funny, does anyone really think that the Afgan's are going to be kinder to the prisoners who were so-called abused. Last I checked, Kindness isn't in the Afgan Lexicon.



It makes a huge difference whether they're being detained and potentially abused by a foreign military, or by their own government.

Besides - Afghanistan has to stand on its own at some point. This is a reasonable step.



True, but the Afgan's won't be near as nice to the prisoners as we were.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:30:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:

True, but the Afgan's won't be near as nice to the prisoners as we were.



You know that, I know that, Karzai knows that, the world knows that… EVERYBODY knows these prisoners are going to get FAR worse treatment under Afghan control that is no secret… it is just unspoken.

This is international theater preformed as a step to show Afghan independence and is no skin off our teeth. I am sure the Pentagon would just as soon be rid of the prisoners.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 1:31:54 PM EDT
That may be. Is it relevant?
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:18:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/21/2005 3:19:47 PM EDT by arbob]
Karzai is just doing what any head of state would do for their nationals. And as it has been hinted at, this can be a face saving way for us to empty Guantanomo Bay. We evil americans will send those low lifes back to their home land, where they`ll be thrown into some dark,dank hole in the ground and forgotten about.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:21:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:26:49 PM EDT
Turn the prisoners over. I'm sure we have gotten all we can from them.

But no, on him having any authority over US troops and operations.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 3:29:32 PM EDT
Apparently, Karzai is a better leader than Afghanistan deserves. His father was assasinated by terrorists, and he's escaped at least half a dozen near-misses on his own life. He could walk away from it all, if he desired.
Link Posted: 5/21/2005 4:03:50 PM EDT

Originally Posted By The_Beer_Slayer:
no problem pull the troops and see how long he lasts.

my guess is a life expectancy of hours




More like minutes.

AB
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