As asked by SAE, this thread is an informational on Judiasm. Before we start it is not a debate, just different perspectives.  There are many different types of Jewish Beliefs. We have common bonds, The Covenant, The T*r*h, History. But there are different paths we have each taken. I want to request that out of respect to the various Jews that post here, to us, Jesus is not the Messiah. Please respect this wish. A teacher, prophet, Rabbi, or what ever different Jewish sects believe he was, is their belief, so please respect that.   Thank You

For myself, I am a by choice. It was my decision, with no input from others, I did not do it for a woman or to get a better deal on a Mercedes.

Although I was brought up in a Luthern home, I never believed that way. I sought a path for myself. The path eventually lead to Judiasm, I had figured that all along. I searched not totally in beliefs, but also in History. I also looked into my ancestors to see what I could find.

One thought that was there from the beginning was that Jesus was a teacher, but not the Messiah. As a child that gave me great turmoil. I was intrigued by the OT, but had no real interest in the NT. That is usually when I acted up and got in trouble...I had my own corner to sit in, my friend had the other.

What I first looked to was the History of Jesus, the world around him and how it fit into the NT. Later on I was to expand that to the other texts, as the Dead Sea Scrolls, Nag Hammandi and what ever I could understand.

Mazel Tov.

Thank you so much "The Wind" for starting this thread.  I am looking forward to hearing all that is posted.  You have my sinceriest (spell check ) respect here.  Please continue with your story.

Thanks and shalom!

God will richly bless you and this site for this thread!

Got to run but will be back latter.

btw. I also started out as a kid at Lutheran church as a kid too.

I Also have Jews in my family line from Germany before my great-grand parents came over from there.

I have a great-great uncle whose name was Job and I'm hoping He wasn't a decendant of the one who got in all that trouble way back when in the O.T..

Anyways got to ziggy.

...

I know I've read this here before, but maybe you can refresh my memory.  Can you detail exactly why Jews don't believe Jesus was the Messiah?  Or can you detail how Jews will recognize the Christ when he comes?



Thanks.  

Got a question about the T*r*h.

What are It's origins, and what are the differences between It and the O.T.?

Is It generally only available in scroll form?

Also is there a set way or law pertaining to the way one should study,practice or recite It?

If you tell me and I do not convert, will a secret Jewish ninja orginization assasinate me by way of snuff flick viewed live in general discussion?

Thanks

OK, AR10, I asked for your respect in that we do not believe that Jesus was the Messiah, I would appreciate you not preaching to myself or my Fellow Jews,

One test of the Messiah is he comes once, and with the coming of the Messiah, there will be World Peace, therefore without World Peace, the Messiah has not come. Also the Messiah is not a god, Only G*d is G*d, one, only one. There are some that feel the Messiah will be 2 people, a Kingly Messiah form the house of David, and a Preistly Messiah from the House of Aaron

The T*r*h is the first 5 Books of your OT, The Books of Moses, the Tanakh is the 5 Books of Moses, the Major Prophets, the Minor Prophets, these are the basis for the Christian OT.

The Messiah who is comming to the Jewish people, does he come down from above possibly someone say like a Prophet that has already been on earth in the flesh and decends down out of Heaven or is he a seemingly ordinary man born through natural child birth, one who would live out life here and accomplish his mission here only as a natural man endued with power from above?

How is it that the messiah for the Jews brings about world peace, with an olive branch or a sword?

Is he only for the Jews and represents them only?

In other words, how powerful is he and what are his plans concerning all of mankind?

Your views?

Thanks.  Do you have any of the scriptural references for those points?  I'm wondering where the discrepency is between the different Jews believing different things as far as two different Messiahs.

Also can someone tell me the differences between the Jewish calender and the one commonly used here in America, Victorian I think?

Thanks

Is there agreement on the question "What the best English Translation of the Hebrew Scriptures?"

What would that be?

Which books are included?

Thanks in advance!

P.S. Edited my earlier post at OP's request.

there is no completely accurate english translation. Some languages dont translate into other languages word for word. some words do, some words dont. but that messes up the accuracy. Learn Hebrew and read the original.

Thank you AR10, As for best T*r*h in English, my Hebrew is sadly not very good. Most very Serious Jews, use the Hebrew, I do have one with Commentaries that is about 3 inches think for the Books of Moses.  I will look later, I love reading the historical commentaries. Also Hebrew is not the language of the T*r*h, it was written in Aramaic. Old Hebrew is the language of the Angels. New Hebrew, what we have today is a rebirth of Old Hebrew.

Thank you HBar, that is the other problem Hebrew is a stone cutters language, hence the useof right to left. They left things out to make it easier, such a plurals, So woman can be women, I had this on the Sabbath when I was reading the T*r*h to HurricaineAllie. We went to the story of Jacob and she was dealing with two wives and two mistresses.  It was hard for a nearly 8 yo. She still does not understand that you can have two wives at once.



A really interesting thought. I wll wait until I get some new resources I have sent for. It goes to the line of a re-establishment of the line of David, through Jesus.

all information listed below taken from www.jewsforjudaism.org. another great resource is www.outreachjudaism.org


What are the criteria that Judaism has established about the messiah?        

The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".


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First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

 


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All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

 

....

ETA: nah

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims        

The Jewish Concept of Messiah and the Jewish Response to Christian Claims

1) The word “Messiah” is an English rendering of the Hebrew word “Mashiach”, whose translation is “Anointed”.  It usually refers to a person initiated into G-d’s service by being anointed with oil. (Having oil poured on his head.  Cf. Exodus 29:7, I Kings 1:39, II Kings 9:3).


2) There are many Messiahs in the Bible.  Since every King and High Priest was anointed with oil, each may be referred to as “an anointed one” (a Mashiach or a Messiah).  For example: “G-d forbid that I [David] should stretch out my hand against the L-rd’s Messiah [Saul]...” I Samuel 26:11. Cf. II Samuel 23:1, Isaiah 45:1, Psalms 20:6.


3) The Hebrew word “HaMashiach” (lit. the Messiah) describing a future anointed person to come does not appear anywhere in the Bible.  Since the Bible makes no explicit reference to the Messiah, it is unlikely that it could be considered the most important concept in the Bible. Indeed, in Jewish thought, the Messianic idea is not the most crucial.  However, in Christian thought, the Messiah is paramount- a difficulty in light of its conspicuous absence from scripture.


4) Where does the Jewish concept of Messiah come from?  One of the central themes of Biblical prophecy is the promise of a future age of perfection characterized by universal peace and recognition of G-d. Isaiah 2:1-4; Zephaniah 3:9; Hosea 2:20-22; Amos 9:13-15; Isaiah 32:15-18, 60:15-18; Micah 4:1-4; Zechariah 8:23, 14:9; Jeremiah 31:33-34.


5) Many of these prophetic passages speak of a descendant of King David who will rule Israel during the age of perfection.  Isaiah 11:1-9; Jeremiah 23:5-6, 30:7-10, 33:14-16; Ezekiel 34:11-31, 37:21-28; Hosea 3:4-5.


6) Since every King is a Messiah, by convention, we refer to this future anointed one as The Messiah.  The above is the only description in the Bible of a Davidic descendant who is to come in the future.  We will recognize the Messiah by seeing who the King of Israel is at the time of complete universal perfection.


7) The Bible never speaks about believing in the Messiah.  Because his reign will be an historically verifiable reality, self-evident to any person, it won’t require belief or faith.


8) Because no person has ever fulfilled the picture painted in the Bible of this future King, Jewish people still await the coming of the Messiah.  All past Messianic claimants, including Jesus of Nazareth, Bar Cochba and Shabbtai Tzvi have been rejected.


9) The claim that Jesus will fulfill the Messianic prophesies when he returns does not give him any credibility for his “first” coming.  The Bible never speaks about the Messiah returning after an initial appearance.  The “second coming” theory is a desperate attempt to explain away Jesus’ failure. The Biblical passages which Christians are forced to regard as second coming (#5 above) don’t speak of someone returning, they have a “first coming” perspective.


10) According to Biblical tradition, Elijah the prophet will reappear before the coming of the Messiah (Malachi 4:5-6).  In the Greek Testament, Jesus claims that John the Baptist was Elijah (Matthew 11:13-14, 17:10-13).  However, when John the Baptist was asked if he was Elijah, he denied it (John 1:21).  The Gospel of Luke 1:17 tries to get around this problem by claiming that John the Baptist came in the spirit of Elijah.  However:

  a]  Malachi predicted that Elijah himself would return, and not just someone coming in his spirit.

  b]  When asked about his identity, John the Baptist didn’t  claim to have come in the spirit of Elijah - he claimed no association with Elijah at all.

  c]  The prophesy about the return of Elijah says that he would restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers.  There is no evidence that John the Baptist accomplished this.


11) According to the Jewish Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of King David.  (Jeremiah 23:5, 33:17; Ezekiel 34:23-24)  Although the Greek Testament traces the genealogy of Joseph (husband of Mary) back to David, it then claims that Jesus resulted from a virgin birth, and, that Joseph was not his  father.  (Mat. 1:18-23)  In response, it is claimed that Joseph adopted Jesus, and passed on his genealogy via adoption.


There are two problems with this claim:

  a) there is no Biblical basis for the idea of a father passing on his tribal line by adoption.  A priest who adopts a son from another tribe cannot make him a priest by adoption;

  b) Joseph could never pass on by adoption that which he doesn’t have.  Because Joseph descended from Jeconiah (Mat. 1:11) he fell under the curse of that king that none of his descendants could ever sit as king upon the throne of David.  (Jeremiah 22:30; 36:30).


To answer this difficult problem, apologists claim that Jesus traces himself back to King David through his mother Mary, who allegedly descends from David, as shown in the third chapter of Luke.  There are four basic problems with this claim:

  a]  There is no evidence that Mary descends from David.  The third chapter of Luke traces Joseph’s genealogy, not Mary’s.

  b]  Even if Mary can trace herself back to David, that doesn’t help Jesus, since tribal affiliation goes only through the father, not mother.  Cf. Num. 1:18; Ezra 2:59.

  c]  Even if family line could go through the mother, Mary was not from a legitimate Messianic family.  According to the Bible, the Messiah must be a descendent of David through his son Solomon (II Sam. 7:14;

I Chron. 17:11-14, 22:9-10, 28:4-6)  The third chapter of Luke is useless because it goes through David’s son Nathan, not Solomon.  (Luke 3:31)

  d]  Luke 3:27 lists Shealtiel and Zerubbabel in his genealogy.  These two also appear in Matthew 1:12 as descendants of the cursed Jeconiah.  If Mary descends from them, it would also disqualify her from being a Messianic progenitor.

information listed taken from www.outreachjudaism.org

Judge for yourself: Did Jesus fulfill ALL these criteria?
The Jewish tradition of "The Messiah" has its foundation in numerous biblical references, and understands "The Messiah" to be a human being - without any overtone of deity or divinity - who will bring about certain changes in the world and fulfill certain criteria before he can be acknowledged as "The Messiah".

First of all, he must be Jewish - "...you may appoint a king over you, whom the L-rd your G-d shall choose: one from among your brethren shall you set as king over you." (Deuteronomy 17:15)

He must be a member of the tribe of Judah - "The staff shall not depart from Judah, nor the sceptre from between his feet..." (Genesis 49:10)

To be a member of the tribe of Judah, the person must have a biological father who is a member of the tribe of Judah.

He must be a direct male descendant of King David and King Solomon, his son - "And when your days (David) are fulfilled, and you shall sleep with your fathers, I will set up your seed after you, who shall issue from your bowels, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will make firm the throne of his kingdom forever..." (2 Samuel 7:12 - 13)

The genealogy of the New Testament is inconsistent. While it gives two accounts of the genealogy of Joseph, it states clearly that he is not the biological father of Jesus. One of the genealogies is through Nathan and not Solomon altogether!

He must gather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel -"And he shall set up a banner for the nations, and shall assemble the outcasts of Israel, and gather together the dispersed of Judah from the four corners of the earth." (Isaiah 11:12)

Are all Jews living in Israel? Have all Jews EVER lived in Israel since the time of Jesus?

He must rebuild the Temple in Jerusalem - "...and I will set my sanctuary in their midst forever and my tabernacle shall be with them.." (Ezekiel 37:26 - 27)

At last check, there is NO Temple in Jerusalem. And worse, it was shortly after Jesus died that the Temple was DESTROYED! Just the opposite of this prophecy!

He will rule at a time of world-wide peace - "...they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruning hooks; nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war anymore." (Micah 4:3)

Have you seen a newspaper lately? Are we living in a state of complete world peace? Has there ever been peace since the time of Jesus?

He will rule at a time when the Jewish people will observe G-d's commandments - "My servant David shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. They shall follow My ordinances and be careful to observe My statutes." (Ezekiel 37:24)

The Torah is the Jewish guide to life, and its commandments are the ones referred to here. Do all Jews observe all the commandments? Christianity, in fact, often discourages observance of the commandments in Torah, in complete opposition to this prophecy.

He will rule at a time when all people will come to acknowledge and serve one G-d - "And it shall come to pass that from one new moon to another and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before Me, says the L-rd" (Isaiah 66:23)

there are still millions if not billions of people in the world today who adhere to paganistic and polytheistic religions. It is clear that we have not yet seen this period of human history unfold.

All of these criteria are best stated in the book of Ezekiel Chapter 37 verses 24-28:

And David my servant shall be king over them; and they shall all have one shepherd. they shall also follow My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them. And they shall dwell in the land that I have given to Yaakov my servant, in which your fathers have dwelt and they shall dwell there, they and their children, and their children's children forever; and my servant David shall be their prince forever. Moreover, I will make a covenant of peace with them, it shall be an everlasting covenant with them, which I will give them; and I will multiply them and I will set my sanctuary in the midst of them forevermore. And my tabernacle shall be with them: and I will be their G-d and they will be my people. Then the nations shall know that I am the L-rd who sanctifies Israel, when My sanctuary will be in the midst of them forevermore.

If an individual fails to fulfill even one of these conditions, then he cannot be "The Messiah." A careful analysis of these criteria shows us that to date, no one has fulfilled every condition.

We don't need to disprove what jesus wasn't.
The talmud tells us clearly what he was.
and that is ALL chapper's gonna add to this thread.

Thanks for the info.
 Which meal(s) is it that Jews set a place for Elijah?  I can't remember if it's every Sabbath, or Passover, or what.  I think my memory is failing as I get older.





FWIW, I was taking an Old Testament class and chatting with a man who had converted from Judaism to the LDS church, and he was saying that the LDS church is the ONLY Christian church which he is aware of that has ever addressed the prophesy of Elijah himself returning.  I thought it was pretty cool.

set a place for him at Passover and open the door for him (symbolically) also Elijah presides at every Bris( Brit Milah covenant of circumcision).  But our house has Elijah at every meal. (of course he is the youngest of my 5 children) he wont be the youngest in february.

HBAR,

In John Ch1 which you quoted earlier the Pharisees seemed to be looking for "the Christ, or Elijah, or the Prophet".

Then John the Baptist denied he was any of them but did say "I am 'The voice of one crying in the wilderness: "Make straight the way of the LORD"', as the prophet Isaiah said." (Isaiah 40:3)

What would be the significance of that statement to a Jew?

 Cute.





Thanks.

Could one of my Jewish brothers explain to me the meaning and title of Melchizedeck king of Salem (Jerusalem), a king and priest with no known lineage or birthright who attained these titles?

Who do you think he was?

Father Abraham must have thought him to be a valid and rightful king and priest because Abraham blessed him with the tithe.

This is not a trick question!

thanks

I would defer this to my fellow Jews, but will offer historical thought. That being that G*d existed before the Jews became who they are. The reference to to Abraham as Abram means before he was sent to task and G*d changed his name from Abram to Abraham.

That Melchizedek was a priest if G*d but not Jewish. There are theories that the Higher levels of Druidism were monotheistic. This is as the RCC uses the Stations of the Cross to teach about Jesus, most people were mmmm shall we say dumb? They needed almost a picture like teaching of anything.

the Mystery Schools may be the place of instruction for Moses, Jesus and the like.  Some thought, myself included , is that Jesus was enlightened in the Egyptian Mystery Schools and he taught some like he was and others through metaphors.

"TW", I had a friend a several years back that said she traced her "bloodline" back, and discovered that she was part Jewish.  I never asked her about how she found out, wish I had.  She is gone now. But, how does someone do that?  I mean, is it just tracing ancestory, or is their something tracable with the actual bloodline/genes?  Maybe that's a stupid question, but since I don't know the answer, I would like to know if you can tell me

try the LDS. they can tell you about everyone. (this isnt a slam. they do ancestry tracing to the nth degree)

Not really true though.  For example, we can't trace back on my maternal side past the early 1800's because so many records were destroyed in fires.  There are MANY non-LDS folks who use the LDS genealogy centers to do their own family research though.  



I would venture to guess that the vast majority of us have some Jewish ancestry to some degree or another.

Where is it that you get confirmation that Melchizedek was not a Jew?

Because he was not decended from Abram (Abraham)?

If he was not, were there any allowances especially for one such as this Melchizidek to become a Jew if this was his desire?

You know, say in simular fashion to yourself and your own personal experiance.

If  you do not believe that Melchizedek was a Jew , then who and what was he, do you suppose?

Again why do you think it is that Abraham, a Jew, would give a tenth of the spoils to this person, Melchizedek, reigning over ancient Jerusalem as if Abraham blessed him seemingly as a  covenant partner?

Payment or tribute for military,logistical or trading and marketing support maybe?  

thanks

After you've answered the others, I'd appreciate it if you could give some insight on graven images. I know we shouldn't have anything to worship it, but I don't know how to draw the line of what we should or shouldn't have. Some (non Jewish) people have told me that we shouldn't have any at all, which includes pictures, model vehicles etc., while others think you can even have the idols from some other religions as long as you don't worship them. Some have thought my mounts (deer, turkey, ducks etc.) were wrong too, but I obviously don't. The fact that God had the people make a bronze snake for healing after they were bitten by snakes confuses me even more.

Because he predated Abram, at the times, Abraham was not a Jew yet. I speculate he was a Hyskos Egyptian, they worshiped One G*d, the invisible Creator of the Universe.

A lot of my library, is still packed away, I have the books to Teach Hurricaine Allie and some new ones.
During one of my T*r*h study classes, (Conservative) we covered quite a bit about Abraham.

And as for being part Jew, I would say many people here are. But a freind of mine had his DNA checked, came out Celt and Italian...he is from a very Jewish family. His mother though was Swiss, a promenient Celtic Tribe.