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Posted: 6/10/2002 9:43:49 AM EDT
 Been trying to let this go but just cannot seem to.
 At our daughters HS graduation 2 weeks ago one of her classmates is JW. A number of JW were there but I had never known her parents. At the end the Honor Guard picked up the flags and stood ready to exit. The HS band played the National Anthem. Most of the JW were in the bleachers behind us. I noticed that a couple and their young daughter a little to my right and behind were just sitting looking down at the floor. A foreign exchange student had graduated so I thought just maybe it was her parents. After we had returned home I described the couple to the wife and she stated whom they were and they were JW's.
 The more I thought about the recent past events, our servicemen and our country the madder I got. I had known that they were anti service and would not recite the Pledge of Allegiance but not this anti American.
 Well my neighbor just down the street(in his 20's) and I believe this same dude and his young daughter  came to my door last Tues.
 AND A BIG ASS REAMING THEY DID RECIEVE.After reminding this young fellow of the way our country is being attacked and the service men putting their lives on the line everyday and how our military was filled with many different races, religions all working together and how  appalled and disgusted I was with their actions and beliefs towards our country his answer was "We do many things for our country, we pay taxes and other important things".
  He kept trying to read me reasons from a Bible dictionary. I kept asking for his reasons and not what came from a book. After getting no resonse worth a shit I told him they just as well spit on me, my country and my military. Then told him to get his sorry pathetic ass off my property before I let out my minpin.
  Just wanting to vent and get others opinions. I just cannot for the life of me forget it nor understand how worthless, gutless and undeserving these ************* are.
  1    2    3   4   5   5   5 oh the hell with the count to ten sh*t.
  Wish I woulda turned around and seen if the rest were scrubbing their carrots or what behind us.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 9:50:18 AM EDT
I spied one this Saturday morning coming up my driveway , she was dressed in a nice black dress and armed with a stack of Watchtowers. Our driveway was wet and a little mudy from the retaining wall I'm putting in, so I just let out our over friendly fox terrier who was more than happy to share the mud with her before she decided that maybe the neighbors house was a better place to go.  
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 9:50:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2002 9:52:17 AM EDT by Graves14]
Originally Posted By SDwhirlwind:
 Been trying to let this go but just cannot seem to.
 At our daughters HS graduation 2 weeks ago one of her classmates is JW. A number of JW were there but I had never known her parents. At the end the Honor Guard picked up the flags and stood ready to exit. The HS band played the National Anthem. Most of the JW were in the bleachers behind us. I noticed that a couple and their young daughter a little to my right and behind were just sitting looking down at the floor. A foreign exchange student had graduated so I thought just maybe it was her parents. After we had returned home I described the couple to the wife and she stated whom they were and they were JW's.
 The more I thought about the recent past events, our servicemen and our country the madder I got. I had known that they were anti service and would not recite the Pledge of Allegiance but not this anti American.
 Well my neighbor just down the street(in his 20's) and I believe this same dude and his young daughter  came to my door last Tues.
 AND A BIG ASS REAMING THEY DID RECIEVE.After reminding this young fellow of the way our country is being attacked and the service men putting their lives on the line everyday and how our military was filled with many different races, religions all working together and how  appalled and disgusted I was with their actions and beliefs towards our country his answer was "We do many things for our country, we pay taxes and other important things".
  He kept trying to read me reasons from a Bible dictionary. I kept asking for his reasons and not what came from a book. After getting no resonse worth a shit I told him they just as well spit on me, my country and my military. Then told him to get his sorry pathetic ass off my property before I let out my minpin.
  Just wanting to vent and get others opinions. I just cannot for the life of me forget it nor understand how worthless, gutless and undeserving these ************* are.
  1    2    3   4   5   5   5 oh the hell with the count to ten sh*t.
  Wish I woulda turned around and seen if the rest were scrubbing their carrots or what behind us.
View Quote


They live by a code of morals, and stick to them, no matter how many people try to tell them they're wrong(or annoying).  I'd say that's worthy of respect.

What business is it of yours what those people do?  Maybe you should report them to the Office of Homeland Security for un-American activities, Herr Whirlwind.  Those non-comformists will be dealt with harshly.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 9:56:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/10/2002 9:58:48 AM EDT by redray]
your reaction is understandable. i am (quietly)  retired from the military after having served a thousand or so (it seems)  years honorably. it pains me, to this day, to see people with no respect for their country, flag, and fellow American.  i remember the thousands of times i saluted during morning colors, in formation or otherwise. during the times that i sang along with the anthem, wouldnt you know it i would get teary eyed! (and not because of those high notes mind u.)

there was a time, we were outside during morning colors, and i witnessed two young sailors running for cover (inside a building) so they wouldnt have to salute. after that last note of the anthem, i rushed inside the building and found those two knuckleheads and they knew from the look on my face, what the hell i was after. i chewed their asses til my voice was gone- and then turned them in to their DIV-O for more of the same. it was sad. i was pissed. and i believe i reacted because of pride and love for my country.  just like you did SDwhirlwind.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 9:58:22 AM EDT
I understand your reaction, but they aren't really anti-American, but rather they believe that oaths and reverence to objects (such as flagss) are worshiping false gods.  As far as not believing in military service, there are many religeous sects that are pacifists such as Quakers.  I'm not defending them just pointing out that there are two sides to every story.  While I don't believe in what they stand for you do have to admire the conviction of faith it takes for them to practice an unpopular stance as well as go door to door trying to "save" (in their eyes) people who aren't part of their church.  Just remember that one of the freedoms we cherish is freedom of religion.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 10:05:25 AM EDT
FWIW, JW also don't observe Christmas or people's birthdays. Kinda strange bunch, IMO.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 10:08:06 AM EDT
Convictions... I'll tell you a story, a JW crashed his private plane in my town while doing photography. Both him and his 5 yr. old son are rushed to the hospital, he dies and it took a court order to save the sons life. both needed blood transfusions , another taboo for JW's. I had to admire his convictions, as he knew the out come. but the childs.... well I can't go along with that.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 10:50:04 AM EDT
I had an uncle who was a joho, always preaching about how bad our govt was, how their religion says they should'nt have to pay taxes to support what the govt does. YET he worked and retired from the post office and collects a govt pension. How important is their religion to them REALLY ????  I would think your faith would come before all else, right ???  Well, then why not follow it to the letter and have absolutly nothing to do with it, don't pay ANY taxes and go to jail. You will be in jail but at least you have your "convictions".  My problem with them and others like them is simple. You live in this country which allows you to practice your "religion" freely yet you refuse to support or defend it when necessary. You take and use all the benefits offered by the govt yet would'nt pay for them if it was'nt the law.  
[b]Graves14 said:  They live by a code of morals, and stick to them, no matter how many people try to tell them they're wrong(or annoying). I'd say that's worthy of respect.[/b]

Not true, if they actually lived by their "code" they would all be jailed for not paying taxes.  I would actually respect them if they had the sack to go by their "code" but I guess being jailed makes them lose some level of faith.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 11:03:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 11:11:59 AM EDT
I worked with a JoHo many times. Hellava nice guy till I found out he was a JoHo. They celebrate their wedding anniversary but not their kids birthdays. They don't attend others birthdays. They would refuse to fight for their freedom. This bothers me the most. They want to live here, enjoy all that America offers but are unwilling to defend her.

Perhaps we should be a bit more careful in deciding what a valid religion is.

I have no time for a religion that makes you a coward.

Don't get me started.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 11:23:15 AM EDT
Originally Posted By rainman:


Perhaps we should be a bit more careful in deciding what a valid religion is.

I have no time for a religion that makes you a coward.

Don't get me started.
View Quote


or perhaps we should be a bit more careful in deciding who is sane enough and trained enough to carry a gun.

or perhaps we should be a bit more careful about the things we let people say.  that hatefulness some groups spew can be dangerous.

or perhaps we should be a bit more lax about making sure all individuals' rights are protected.

some of you people are hypocrites, only people you approve of are afforded the full rights and benefits of living in this country?  what bullshit.  it's an unfortunate consequence of this country's freedoms that people also have the choice not to defend and/or support her.  but would you really rather have it any other way?  do you know what that would mean?

as for the comment that this country "allows" people to practice religion, you couldn't be more off base.  this country doesn't "allow" anything.  it is prohibited from infringing on RIGHTS, god-given or natural, however you want to phrase it.  but rights nonetheless.

why is it that so many people demand the ultimate in freedoms and liberty for themselves but get so angry and want to deny others those same liberties and freedom just because they disagree with others' viewpoints?
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 11:48:16 AM EDT
All well and good that they have rights..   I appreciate that, but reserve my right to disagree with them and don't have to like them...   I feel that some religions are crutches for those who are not willing to participate in the system that assures these rights..  AND  I think, that's wrong...[:(]
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 12:59:21 PM EDT
ARLady, I have no problem with a persons right to practice their religion. What I DO have a problem with is when people of a certain religion refuse to participate, defend or protect the very country which allows them that right. If you believe in a religion which says paying taxes is wrong, fine, don't pay taxes BUT be prepared to go to jail for your beliefs. Why should one group in the nation get all the benefits of living here all the while despising the govt and refusing to fight to defend it.
They are hypocrites, choosing only the parts of their religion that suites them and calling on it when asked to defend the nation.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 1:11:08 PM EDT
First off, I DON'T like JW's. I think they are following a whacked out psuedo religion. (That's ok. I know some people think the same about main-stream Christians.)

That being said...

We don't defend the constitution/bill of rights only for viewpoints, religions, etc. we like. We uphold them for all. That is why I can salute and cherish the US Flag even while I defend someone's right to burn it. I may not like it, but the First doesn't guarantee that I'll like the free speech we grant.

(put's on nomex jockie shorts)

-legrue

Link Posted: 6/10/2002 1:14:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By legrue:
First off, I DON'T like JW's. I think they are following a whacked out psuedo religion. (That's ok. I know some people think the same about main-stream Christians.)

That being said...

We don't defend the constitution/bill of rights only for viewpoints, religions, etc. we like. We uphold them for all. That is why I can salute and cherish the US Flag even while I defend someone's right to burn it. I may not like it, but the First doesn't guarantee that I'll like the free speech we grant.

(put's on nomex jockie shorts)

-legrue

View Quote


I agree.  Well said.  You MUST take the good with the "bad" in a free society or it isn't a free society.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 4:37:34 PM EDT
Graves14
  Al Quaeda also lives by a code of morals do you honor their beliefs and respect them?

  I did not say they couldn't believe in what they wish. I feel that when you live in a country that offers the freedoms ours does you should feel morally obligated to defend it because of the freedoms it offers. Nothing is free and when you expect someone else to die for what you believe but you wouldn't even consider it then you are a hipocrit.

  What business is it of mine you ask?  Well when someone has the freedom to come onto my property to spew his BS and tell me I am going to burn in HELL because my beliefs are way off base then I guess it would probably be my business. They have the freedom to believe as they wish and I respect that.

  My feelings are that they could have at least stood out of respect for our National Anthem. Nothing else just stand, but to stay seated and look down at the floor. I have noted people from other countries have shown our country more respect than that. At the Olympics respect is shown for other countries.

  The excuse that our flag should not be worshipped is horse pucky. I nor anyone I know worships our flag. There is a difference between honor and worship.

  The same argument holds true against the liberal BS about how we are taking away the constitutional rights of middleeasterners. If you come to this country to attack it you have no constitutional rights. At least that is my opinion. The Constitution applies to citizens not terrorists.

  Thousands of US citizens have died fighting for the rights of this country as well as many others. Serving our country has its price. There is a price at Walmart, not everything there is free either.

  In our community most JW's only work partime. None I know of have full time jobs. They have mooched off of elderly people until they have nothing and have no problem living in susidized housing. They also run small businesses that are not licensed so collect no sales tax or partake in any other events to benefit the community. If it doesn't benefit them or other JW's they are not involved.

  So when you state that it is none of my business in what they believe or how they conduct themselves then you my friend must also only expect things and never figure you have a debt to your country. Freedom whether it is religion, Constitutional rights or what has a price and many have paid it but not in cash.

  To refuse to serve your country in some way (not necessarily killing as the military has many duties) is chickenshit plain and simple.

  In fact when I asked him about JW's lack of military involement his statement was "It is against God to murder, as Jesus said LAY DOWN THY SWORD".

  So I am not against freedom of religion. My gripe was with what they think of the country they live in.  
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 5:25:02 PM EDT
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.”
--Edmund Burke

“We sleep soundly in our beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on our behalf.”
--George Orwell

“If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without bloodshed; if you will not fight when your victory will be sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may be even a worse fate. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves."
--Winston Churchill

“Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
--Patrick Henry

[b]“War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things. The decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feeling which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. The person who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself.”
--John Stuart Mill[/b]
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 6:16:43 PM EDT
My sister became a Yaweh's Witness (they can't even pronounce it right - so how can they be God's true order???) about 10 years ago.

They are some of the most whacked out, brain fried, starry eyed, cult members I have ever encountered.

Their logic is circular at best. They rewrote the Bible and created their own.

Their faith has been riddled with contradictions since it's beginning.

They proliferate a doctrine that is completely against Jesus' teachings by practicing things like shunning family members, etc...

They are almost as bad as Moonies or Krishnas.

They are indeed anti-government and anti-USA.

I tell them I am Wiccan when they come to my door. That usually gets rid of them.

Link Posted: 6/10/2002 6:39:26 PM EDT
First of all, about the taxes stuff Jesus said "Pay Ceasar's things to Ceasar".  This point is stressed regularly in JW literature and it is their position that all income should be honestly reported and all taxes paid.  Of course I'm sure you can find some individuals with warped reasoning that shirk their duty, but this is true of all walks of life.  

JWs were imprisoned during WWI for their neutral stand.  They were offered non-combatant roles in the nedical corps, etc, but refused.  Now really, which is the more pleasant path, 10 years in a turn-of-the-century Federal Prison or 2 years in the rear echelons?  Their stand was hardly the path of cowardice.  

Note that they took a similar stand on BOTH sides of combat.  Thousands were herded into Hitlers camps because of their non-participation and hundreds were killed there.  Now would you have prefered it if JWs took up arms for their country, in this case Hitler's Germany, and killed American farmboys?  Becasue thats what every other religion did.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 6:42:31 PM EDT
Some of the Jehovah's Witnesses are nice people -- what about Michael Jackson?  

[img]http://members.aol.com/mojorisenn/jacko.jpg[/img]

Errr... never mind. [%|]

Link Posted: 6/10/2002 7:10:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SDwhirlwind:
Graves14
  Al Quaeda also lives by a code of morals do you honor their beliefs and respect them?
View Quote


Yes, because I think people should mind their own damn business I support terrorists.  You should report me to the FBI.


  I did not say they couldn't believe in what they wish. I feel that when you live in a country that offers the freedoms ours does you should feel morally obligated to defend it because of the freedoms it offers. Nothing is free and when you expect someone else to die for what you believe but you wouldn't even consider it then you are a hipocrit.
View Quote


I don't believe they expect anyone to die.  I think they'd prefer no one died, and that there were no wars at all.  Is that realistic?  Not in the least.  But it's what they believe.  They're pacifists.  That means they would prefer you didn't fight and die as well...understand?

Which one of them demanded that you die for him, anyway?


  What business is it of mine you ask?  Well when someone has the freedom to come onto my property to spew his BS and tell me I am going to burn in HELL because my beliefs are way off base then I guess it would probably be my business. They have the freedom to believe as they wish and I respect that.

View Quote


Such are the wonders of a free society.  You're just as free to put up no trespassing signs or to ask them to leave.  And by the sound of your original post, you were the one bragging about jumping their asses, not the other way around.


  My feelings are that they could have at least stood out of respect for our National Anthem. Nothing else just stand, but to stay seated and look down at the floor. I have noted people from other countries have shown our country more respect than that. At the Olympics respect is shown for other countries.
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When you're elected dictator you can make it illegal for people to remain seated while the National Anthem is being played.  You can even form an enforcement squad that "encourages" people who aren't quite enthusiastic enough about it.


  The excuse that our flag should not be worshipped is horse pucky. I nor anyone I know worships our flag. There is a difference between honor and worship.
View Quote


It's horse pucky to you.  To them it's quite serious.  There's a difference between perception and reality.


  The same argument holds true against the liberal BS about how we are taking away the constitutional rights of middleeasterners. If you come to this country to attack it you have no constitutional rights. At least that is my opinion. The Constitution applies to citizens not terrorists.
View Quote


I'm not sure what you're talking about here.  Are you implying that JW's are terrorists?

cont.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 7:11:40 PM EDT

  Thousands of US citizens have died fighting for the rights of this country as well as many others. Serving our country has its price. There is a price at Walmart, not everything there is free either.
View Quote


As someone else pointed out, they've paid a high price for refusing to enlist.  


  In our community most JW's only work partime. None I know of have full time jobs. They have mooched off of elderly people until they have nothing and have no problem living in susidized housing. They also run small businesses that are not licensed so collect no sales tax or partake in any other events to benefit the community. If it doesn't benefit them or other JW's they are not involved.
View Quote


It sounds like you have a personal axe to grind with JW's.  "Benefit the community?"  Uhh...That's socialism, my friend.  People work for themselves, not the "benefit of the community."  It's not their responsibility to enrich the community.


  So when you state that it is none of my business in what they believe or how they conduct themselves then you my friend must also only expect things and never figure you have a debt to your country. Freedom whether it is religion, Constitutional rights or what has a price and many have paid it but not in cash.
View Quote


Yes, if I disagree with you then I must be just like all the people who are out to get you.  Great logic.  By the way, what they do still isn't your business, no matter how much you wish it was.  

 
To refuse to serve your country in some way (not necessarily killing as the military has many duties) is chickenshit plain and simple.

  In fact when I asked him about JW's lack of military involement his statement was "It is against God to murder, as Jesus said LAY DOWN THY SWORD".

  So I am not against freedom of religion. My gripe was with what they think of the country they live in.  
View Quote


Nobody said you were against freedom of religion.  I just suggested that you keep your nose out of other people's affairs.  What do you care what they think of this country?  Maybe we should start up some re-education camps for people who don't think quite like you would like them to.
Link Posted: 6/10/2002 7:12:28 PM EDT
its okay if they come to the door with "The Watchtower" pamphlets i come to the door with the AR aimed in the air (unloaded mag in the well of course) and shout "Praise Allah! I send these to you!... should see them run.
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 10:38:22 AM EDT
JW, IMVHFO, like most sects of Islam, are particularly oppressive to women, as far as your "mainstream" christians go.

I always found their avertion to being willing to sacrifice themselves for a greater good (military) to be a bit highbrow to me...

When they come knocking I invite them in and ask them questions they can't answer. (Mainly about their genocidal, baby-killing god.)

It's nearly impossible, though, to get them to acutally [i]think[/i] past the indocrination and brainwashing.

I think that I'm being used as a training device of sorts - they keep sending the newbies over...  Fresh meat - Muuuuwwwahhhhahahahahahahahaha!!!

P3[pyro][}:D][heavy]
Link Posted: 6/11/2002 11:41:52 AM EDT
bigyeti and SPECTRE,

i understand and sympathize with the extreme dislike of people who refuse to support the country in which they live, the country that comes with certain guaranteed freedoms to live how they feel they should.

BUT, the minute you start limiting those freedoms to people that you do approve of, you start limiting the freedoms of ALL.  if america started picking and choosing the people who got to be free, it wouldn't be america.

you don't have to like JWs.  but you do have to let them worship and believe as they choose to.  otherwise, you are undermining the very constitution that makes this country great.

just for shits and giggles, how would you change the situation?  could you do it without violating or eliminating the directives in the constitution and BoR?
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