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Posted: 9/8/2005 5:23:19 AM EDT
Just saw an old lady attached by the NOLA police in her own home for not wanting to leave her home. (Fox news) She showed them a revolver and she showed them it was unloaded stating she keeps this for her protection, they then jumped on her and took her out with force. Guess what these f@ckheads did next. Took her gun and took her to the Civic center and dropped her off and left her on her own. I can't emagine why people are randomly shooting at the police in NOLA.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:26:56 AM EDT
It's for her own good.

Government proprty (you) must be protected.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:29:50 AM EDT
wow that's fucked up. contrast that with the actions of the Army and NG.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:30:01 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:30:05 AM EDT
We're from the government and we are here to help.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:39:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Q3131A:
We're from the NOPD and we are here to help.




Fixed it for you.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:41:52 AM EDT
Sad
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:43:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:46:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 5:57:45 AM EDT
Were those California Highway Patrol officers in that clip?. I thought i saw the same story last night, and they were talking about how the CHP sent some officers to help.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:05:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:21:27 AM EDT
Yes, I saw that.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:28:01 AM EDT
Possibly we are just seeing examples in the open of what goes on with the NO PD. Some of the shooting at the police may be the result of pent up grievances from earlier encounters.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:30:18 AM EDT
Bush ordered this
and the suns spots
and that Tsunami
etc etc.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:31:13 AM EDT
This is nothing. Wait until the fleet of East Peoria's finest move in.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:31:23 AM EDT
this is fucking sad


i can't believe this fucking bullshit
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:35:23 AM EDT
I would've just stayed indoors and let the Keystone Cops move on to the next house.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:35:44 AM EDT
Apparently I saw a different news clip.

In that one, she pulled a revolver out (to show it was unloaded, according to the report) and was tackled. I'd of done the same - no, I am not a cop. She was never cuffed and not arrested. I saw her grab the gun to show the officers, and they reverted to their training. Same thing we advocate.

I do not agree with forcing her to leave her home. Dying is her decision. But the cops were reacting to a gun that was pulled, not tackling her to force her out of her home. Pull a gun on me and, yeah, I'm taking it away from you.

Again, before the flames start:

I do NOT agree with what the police are doing there. But she should have been smart enough not to grab a gun when dealing with the police - that's just stupid. She's unhurt, and was never arrested... Just held down until they could get the gun. I see nothing wrong.

Flame away - I know defending police here is akin o suicide, but I saw the news clip with my own eyes just an hour agao, over and over on Fox. Dunno what the hell y'all were watching.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:37:17 AM EDT
It's martial law folks.... this is right and just. You will be forced to accept government shelters and being penned in with animals unarmed. They can do as they please. It's martial law. That's what I hear here anyway.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:38:39 AM EDT
Looks like the mayor is getting his way
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:40:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:19:30 AM EDT by BigDozer66]

Originally Posted By Q3131A:
We're from the government and we are here to help.



This is what I was thinking!

If you are going to let the gubmint take care of you then you have to submit to them.

BigDozer66
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:40:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Apparently I saw a different news clip.

In that one, she pulled a revolver out (to show it was unloaded, according to the report) and was tackled. I'd of done the same - no, I am not a cop. She was never cuffed and not arrested. I saw her grab the gun to show the officers, and they reverted to their training. Same thing we advocate.

I do not agree with forcing her to leave her home. Dying is her decision. But the cops were reacting to a gun that was pulled, not tackling her to force her out of her home. Pull a gun on me and, yeah, I'm taking it away from you.

Again, before the flames start:

I do NOT agree with what the police are doing there. But she should have been smart enough not to grab a gun when dealing with the police - that's just stupid. She's unhurt, and was never arrested... Just held down until they could get the gun. I see nothing wrong.

Flame away - I know defending police here is akin o suicide, but I saw the news clip with my own eyes just an hour agao, over and over on Fox. Dunno what the hell y'all were watching.




Well that makes the gun aspect a little more clear. I'm not sure how to handle that. It's hard to say they should hand her the gun back, but taking her away to some animal pen and leaving her is not my idea of making things better for her.

Was she in standing water though?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:43:27 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 6:47:29 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:49:05 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Apparently I saw a different news clip.

In that one, she pulled a revolver out (to show it was unloaded, according to the report) and was tackled. I'd of done the same - no, I am not a cop. She was never cuffed and not arrested. I saw her grab the gun to show the officers, and they reverted to their training. Same thing we advocate.

I do not agree with forcing her to leave her home. Dying is her decision. But the cops were reacting to a gun that was pulled, not tackling her to force her out of her home. Pull a gun on me and, yeah, I'm taking it away from you.

Again, before the flames start:

I do NOT agree with what the police are doing there. But she should have been smart enough not to grab a gun when dealing with the police - that's just stupid. She's unhurt, and was never arrested... Just held down until they could get the gun. I see nothing wrong.

Flame away - I know defending police here is akin o suicide, but I saw the news clip with my own eyes just an hour agao, over and over on Fox. Dunno what the hell y'all were watching.




Well that makes the gun aspect a little more clear. I'm not sure how to handle that. It's hard to say they should hand her the gun back, but taking her away to some animal pen and leaving her is not my idea of making things better for her.

Was she in standing water though?



As I said, I do not agree with them forcing her from her home. She owns it, she is not a threat, it should be her decision. Guess that's why I am not a cop. I'd of let her stay and focused on other things, like helping out those who wanted to leave.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:50:50 AM EDT
local govt has the right to condemn property, in this case it's not to turn the property over to commercial interests.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:52:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 6:54:22 AM EDT by tfod]
You don't own propery, and you don't have the right to be on the property you percieve yourself as owning. All you own and do is now at the mercy of the government.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:53:07 AM EDT

It was my impression that the government could only enter your house and forcibly remove you (without a warrant) if there is demonstrable evidence that you are going to DIE if they don't.

You have the right to stupid and unhealthy decisions, and I don't believe the government has the legal right to remove you from your home.



Technically - if what they are doing is legal, wouldn't it also be legal to remove really fat people from their homes and force them into government camps to lose weight? After all, obesity is really dangerous, and has been demonstrated to cause heart disease, circulatory problems, and early death. What's the difference exactly?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:53:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:

Originally Posted By richardh247:
Apparently I saw a different news clip.

In that one, she pulled a revolver out (to show it was unloaded, according to the report) and was tackled. I'd of done the same - no, I am not a cop. She was never cuffed and not arrested. I saw her grab the gun to show the officers, and they reverted to their training. Same thing we advocate.

I do not agree with forcing her to leave her home. Dying is her decision. But the cops were reacting to a gun that was pulled, not tackling her to force her out of her home. Pull a gun on me and, yeah, I'm taking it away from you.

Again, before the flames start:

I do NOT agree with what the police are doing there. But she should have been smart enough not to grab a gun when dealing with the police - that's just stupid. She's unhurt, and was never arrested... Just held down until they could get the gun. I see nothing wrong.

Flame away - I know defending police here is akin o suicide, but I saw the news clip with my own eyes just an hour agao, over and over on Fox. Dunno what the hell y'all were watching.


<sigh>

How very far we have come from the Founding Fathers' devout views on governmental action.

Even gun folks are starting to think like...this.

Sorry, but this 'grandmother' is not and was not a criminal, but someone in her very own home.

If either of my grandmothers were alive and some Jackassed JBT tackled her for peacefully displaying a weapon on her own property, then they'd better get used to...always looking over their shoulder.

Not a threat...just a promise.

Eric The(OriginalIntent)Hun



Don't blame them for reverting to their level of training. Blame the idiots who put the police on their ears by looting and shooting. Blame the governor for making a decision that forced them to take action. Regardless of who it is, I don't want ANYONE jacking up a gun in front of me at any time, much less in the midst of a catastrophe.

We call them deserters if they walk away, and JBTs if they follow through with their orders.

There is no simple answer. Sad it came to this.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 6:55:54 AM EDT
Not sure I have a problem with forced evacuation under the circumstances. From what is being reported anyway the level of toxicity and bacteria in the water and from whats been let behind is a major health hazard. Now if you live outside of the areas that flooded you should be ok, but in the city is a different situation I'd think. Sure if you want to live in it, let something fester and kill you then thats your business but they also cant let it spread. Who knows what kind of disease could result from those conditions.
Take it a step further and say people in a flooded area remain in thier homes...become sick or carriers of some nasty infection...then evacuate to a shelter and spread whatever they've contracted to hundreds or thousands of others. Im not thinking something on the level of a plague spreading but there still could be serious health risks from people sticking around before its been cleaned up. No one wants to be kicked out of thier own homes but it might be for thier own good for a while.
I guess it also comes down to HOW they are "forced" out of thier homes. Putting people in handcuffs or escorting them by gun point out ofthe city will just cause more problems...those law enforcement officers and military have a shitty job ahead of themselves.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:01:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
It's martial law folks.... this is right and just. You will be forced to accept government shelters and being penned in with animals unarmed. They can do as they please. It's martial law. That's what I hear here anyway.


no fucking shit. what i heard on faux news yesterday is that the old woman was an edp who was totally incapable of making any type of rational decision.

besides, there IS a state of emergency down there right now, some of you idiots might remember a big rainstorm a couple of days ago? shit flowing through the streets?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:01:59 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dpmmn:
Looks like the mayor is getting his way



This was the original plan, mandaatory evacuation. I think the Mayor and Gov. realized they couldn't force people to leave, even if the bus was waiting outside for them. They either didn't have the political will or the manpower to go door to door and do this.......and that's the real reason people stayed and died....and stayed and looted.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:07:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:10:56 AM EDT by EricTheHun]
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:08:29 AM EDT
She was clearly not a threat, even showed the officers that the gun was clearly unloaded. Never pointed the weapon in their direction. If your training is to jump on people who clearly demonstrate no danger to anyone or theirself, then I revert back to: I can't emagin why people are shooting at NOLA police officers.

They took her only means of defence and dropped her off at the Civic center to fend for herself. She also showed she had food, Ice, water and her home wasn't under water.

Just following orders BS, the SS was just following orders so that makes what they did ok than.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:11:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By erickktm:
She was clearly not a threat, even showed the officers that the gun was clearly unloaded. Never pointed the weapon in their direction. If your training is to jump on people who clearly demonstrate no danger to anyone or theirself, then I revert back to: I can't emagin why people are shooting at NOLA police officers.

They took her only means of defence and dropped her off at the Civic center to fend for herself. She also showed she had food, Ice, water and her home wasn't under water.

Just following orders BS, the SS was just following orders so that makes what they did ok than.



Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:17:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By EricTheHun:
Originally Posted By richardh247:

Don't blame them for reverting to their level of training.

The days of 'I was just following orders' are long gone, as should be the days of 'I was just reverting to training.'

If you are that tightly wired around grandmother-types in an American City, you need to rethink your choice of professions.

New orleans, even today, is NOT, repeat NOT, Fallujah.

There have been precisely TWO N.O.P.D. wounded by gunfire....in New Orleans.

That is hardly a combat zone in any sense of the term, despite the cries of Geraldo Rivera and what the thin blue line may wish us to believe!

This remains America, and New Orleans remain an American City, full of American citizens, and those parts of the United States Constitution that secure the rights of private individuals to be left alone in their own homes has not yet been suspended.

That should be a very simple concept to grasp.

Blame the idiots who put the police on their ears by looting and shooting.

No. Everyone is responsible for their own acts.

They cannot blame it on the actions of others.

That is 'irresponsibility' properly defined.

Blame the governor for making a decision that forced them to take action.

Again, don't blame your own misconduct on the perceived misconduct of others.

Regardless of who it is, I don't want ANYONE jacking up a gun in front of me at any time, much less in the midst of a catastrophe.

That's what the grandmother probably wished, as well.

If you don't like it, then keep off other folks' property.

Come back later and tag the dead woman's toe...since you think that she is in such danger.

We call them deserters if they walk away, and JBTs if they follow through with their orders.

'Following orders' hasn't been an acceptable excuse since about August, 1945.

There is no simple answer. Sad it came to this.

The answer if very simple.

There are enough folks who desire to be 'saved' from New Orleans.

Save the ones who wish to be saved and simply leave the others to their God.

Easy enough?

Eric The(SafeguardingOurRights)Hun



As I said before, I am saying now, and I will contend still later: I DO NOT AGREE WITH WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

But I also don't agree looking at it from the very opposite side of the spectrum, either. You made by my point by alluding to the fact no blame can be assigned. The cops should not have been there in the first place. But I cannot blame them for wanting to get her out of there where she faced death as a result of her own stupidity.

There's the difference: I place no blame on either her or the cops. As I stated, it is a sad situation all around. Everyone immediately posts to threads like these with "That's fucked up!" "Blame the gooberment!" "Damn JBTs!" withou thinking anything through. If it was your responsibility, things would be in a different light. Leave her there to let her die, her family could sue you and ALL YOUR FAMILY for negligence. Walk away from the job and you are a coward. Remove here and you are oppressing right.

Can't win in this situation.

Richard (the realist) 247. Hmmm, just doesn't have the same ring as yours
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:31:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 7:35:52 AM EDT by TheCommissioner]

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:
It was my impression that the government could only enter your house and forcibly remove you (without a warrant) if there is demonstrable evidence that you are going to DIE if they don't.

You have the right to stupid and unhealthy decisions, and I don't believe the government has the legal right to remove you from your home.



It's really not a legal issue as much as it is a PR problem. The US government does not want television viewers worldwide witnessing the horror of occupied homes being bulldozed.

The handwriting is on the wall. The MSM's reports on the toxcity of the water are growing more dire by the day. Many are opposing rebuilding in a section of the city that is just another hurricane away from the same kind of flooding. Lots of residents won't be returning anyway. So, the final solution is to 'promote' the lowest lying areas of New Orleans as this century's Love Canal and Times Beach. Mark my words.

Edited to repair typos.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:33:30 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:43:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By hardcorps1775:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
It's martial law folks.... this is right and just. You will be forced to accept government shelters and being penned in with animals unarmed. They can do as they please. It's martial law. That's what I hear here anyway.


no fucking shit. what i heard on faux news yesterday is that the old woman was an edp who was totally incapable of making any type of rational decision.

besides, there IS a state of emergency down there right now, some of you idiots might remember a big rainstorm a couple of days ago? shit flowing through the streets?



Maybe you missed my sarcasim?

If she was not under the shit water and had her own stock of food and drinking water they had no business forcing her from her home where she had some means into a situation of total homelessness. I'm sure they were finding all kinds of reasons why she was too dumb for her own good. Here in the US dragging an old woman out of her house and throwing her in a den of thieves and vagrants when she had her own means doesn't play well without some spin.

If I'm off base on this and she was a total nutcase in a sewage filled home, I'll take it back, but for now this makes me pretty angry. Abandon your home to looters and flee forever or be dragged out a week later by the friendly folks from the POPO. Nice options.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:45:41 AM EDT
I saw that news clip last night too, totally unnecessary on the cops part. He took that old lady down pretty hard. To answer the one question, no there was no water in her house, she even showed the Po-Po all the supplies she had like numerous bottles of water and shit like that on the floor, the floor wasn't wet.
They also showed her showing 5-Oh the revolver she had, she was pointing it down towards the floor, she never waved it around or anything.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:49:43 AM EDT
Before all the finger pointing and clueless fucks being armchair commandos. Think for a second how you would react after several days of little to no sleep, not knowing about your family, fellow officers committing suicide, you have no home left, you may not know where your family is, and you've been shot at multiple times but a bunch of fucking thugs. Then make your call on what level of force is appropriate for what incident.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:52:17 AM EDT
Eric The Hun,

I greatly value your input on this board, and we are actually on the same page here. So I am not going to get into a pissing contest with you.

I said that if I were them, I'd of let her be. You said they should have moved on.

I said I don't agree with what they are doing. You said the same thing.

I said she had every right to stay. So did you.

I said she had the right to be stupid. So did you.

I see both sides here, and I refuse to condemn anyone. Exactly where in my post did you find me condoning anyone, either? If I can't blame the lady for staying, I can't blame the cops for removing her, either. Comparing that to looting is silly. One is a criminal act designed to hurt others, while the other--this discussion--is about trying to help someone.

If it was your grandma you'd be screaming after she died. "You should have punched her out and taken her! She's old! She's senile!" We see this hypocrisy every day, Eric, every fucking day! "He was a such a good boy - he didn't deserve to die!" But you are the first to say "He had a knife and an arrest record, he was gangbanging scum!"

I am guilty of the same thing.

This whole N.O situation SUCKS! It just SUCKS! Yet another point we agree on. But I will not condemn the police for forcing her out of a place where she faced a slow, miserable, rotting, disease-filled death, anymore than I will condemn her right to make that decision. No matter what the situation came to, no one is going to be happy.

Hard to practice your rights when you're dead, ya know? And raped from the gangs. And robbed of your food and water. And carrying a deadly disease.

It is the big picture, Eric, the big picture. No one is an advocate of rights more than I am; but sometimes the greater good must be taken into account.

Like I said, we are on the same page. We just disagree on the liability issue.

Have a beer on me, bro.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:53:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 7:57:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:02:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By erickktm:
Just saw an old lady attached by the NOLA police in her own home for not wanting to leave her home. (Fox news) She showed them a revolver and she showed them it was unloaded stating she keeps this for her protection, they then jumped on her and took her out with force. Guess what these f@ckheads did next. Took her gun and took her to the Civic center and dropped her off and left her on her own. I can't emagine why people are randomly shooting at the police in NOLA.



Where on earth did you learn to spell ?
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:02:48 AM EDT
I get a little bent sometimes when I read the JBT threads. They are usually poorly thought out and arent concerned much with reality, only perception. This reminds me of the young marine shooting the wounded insurgent terrorist in the mosque. Half the folks were saying how unneccessary it was and it was murder, not taking into account the larger picture.

I'm merely saying, nobody has the whole picture but the guys who were there.

Not trying to get pissy but I just got off a graveyard shift and am trying to relax before bed. Dealing with fucking crooks all night gets me a bit uptight. What do I know though, I'm just a friggen turnkey jail guard
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:03:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:05:20 AM EDT by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
Before all the finger pointing and clueless fucks being armchair commandos. Think for a second how you would react after several days of little to no sleep, not knowing about your family, fellow officers committing suicide, you have no home left, you may not know where your family is, and you've been shot at multiple times but a bunch of fucking thugs. Then make your call on what level of force is appropriate for what incident.




You're too late.

Anyway. Is it understandable for them to be on edge? Yes, I'm not saying they are the SS. Is it appropriate to tackle grandma when she is obviously avioding pointing a weapon at you and demonstrating that it is unloaded? Not really in my opionion. Understandable in the conditions, but still not to be commended either. I'm not calling for their heads on that issue. It's not right what they are doing to people who are not directly threatened by filth water. That is the bigger issue by far. A pompus little mayor who decides he can order people who aren't even in the flood to be dragged from their homes and forced into camps.

No sir, I don't support that.

Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:04:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Well that makes the gun aspect a little more clear. I'm not sure how to handle that. It's hard to say they should hand her the gun back, but taking her away to some animal pen and leaving her is not my idea of making things better for her. Was she in standing water though?



Well I support Police most of the time, but if she had broken no laws and wanted to stay they have no right to make her leave. Law Abiding people with guns are no threat to me. I would have given her her property back and left.

Now if they wanted to arrest her they could have arrested her for brandishing a weapon and taken her to jail.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:08:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
Before all the finger pointing and clueless fucks being armchair commandos. Think for a second how you would react after several days of little to no sleep, not knowing about your family, fellow officers committing suicide, you have no home left, you may not know where your family is, and you've been shot at multiple times but a bunch of fucking thugs. Then make your call on what level of force is appropriate for what incident.





Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:09:17 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:13:23 AM EDT by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By sum-rifle:

Originally Posted By Grunteled:
Well that makes the gun aspect a little more clear. I'm not sure how to handle that. It's hard to say they should hand her the gun back, but taking her away to some animal pen and leaving her is not my idea of making things better for her. Was she in standing water though?



Well I support Police most of the time, but if she had broken no laws and wanted to stay they have no right to make her leave. Law Abiding people with guns are no threat to me. I would have given her her property back and left.

Now if they wanted to arrest her they could have arrested her for brandishing a weapon and taken her to jail.



While many DAs get away with it for far less, "brandishing" has an element of anger or force to it. As in showing off a weapon to gain the upper hand in an argument or to scare someone into doing what propose they do. Simply showing someone the condition of a weapon and that it is not loaded is NOT brandishing. Otherwise we could all be arrested anytime we set foot in a gun store and present a weapon.

ETA: I tend to agree on returning her property but I can also understand not given they were apparently going to transport her to a place where she can't have it anyway. Nothing GOOD in this story.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:10:23 AM EDT

Will her food and water be there when she gets back?

She is probably planning her escape right now.
Link Posted: 9/8/2005 8:17:23 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2005 8:18:21 AM EDT by cluster]


posted by someone...

Now if they wanted to arrest her they could have arrested her for brandishing a weapon and taken her to jail.





in her own home..? given the situation that city is in.. wow..


proper response should of been " ma'am.... do you need any extra ammo ... i have an etra box.. "



im watching the news... and it seems the people that are forcing folks out of thier homes.. <without force.. just intimidation> are trhe NOPD everyone else seems to say.. you DONT have to go ... but its in your best interest..



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