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Posted: 12/27/2003 9:44:24 PM EDT
Besides the venerable 10mm, I mean.

Looking to get a gun in this caliber. Probably a Glock 32.

But what do you think about this round? I may upgrade from 9mm carry gun to this.

10mm is fine, but Glock 29 is too fat, and Glock 20 too big for concealed carry.

Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:54:13 PM EDT
I fired the .357 sig for the first time today. While I was impressed with the Sig I was shooting it out of the round was indistinguishable from a 9mm+P.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:56:48 PM EDT
I've got a Sig P229 in it and really like it. Have not shot a lot of handgun, some 9mm, and 40 cal. once, I like it better. Killed quite a bit of papper with it, I like the big hole it leaves. And more than powerfull enough to go right threw both sides. Ultimate, I don't know about, I always wanted a 10mm (even bigger hole in papper).PEAX
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 9:57:29 PM EDT
From the stats I've seen on the .357 SIG's performance, it's not anything outstanding. Basically equal to 7.62x25mm. I've shot a SIG chambered in it. Incredibly loud. I like how Glock calls guns it chambers for it .357 Auto.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:02:43 PM EDT
Never really understood the need for it... As was stated, ballistically it is pretty much covered by 9mm +P or +P+ loads...
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:05:56 PM EDT
Talk about a solution looking for a problem.... And the ammo will always be more expensive because it's necked.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:19:20 PM EDT
Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1 The .357sig is alright, but for necked pistol calibers, I always liked the .30 luger
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:28:04 PM EDT
Why the disdain for this round?
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:30:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Why the disdain for this round?
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Um.... "...ballistically it is pretty much covered by 9mm +P or +P+ loads..."
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:31:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: Why the disdain for this round?
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It's not disdain, it's just that it's pointless. As Shivan and others pointed out. Why pay more, to carry less, for the same performance?
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:34:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 10:35:43 PM EDT by kpel308]
400 CorBon. Hell, just neck down a .50AE to .22!
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:35:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin: Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1....
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amen
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:48:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 10:59:04 PM EDT by Cato556]
I think it is an excellent round. Its bottle-necked design is inherently more reliable then the un-tapered .40 S&W (the 9mm and even .45 ACP have slight case tapering to increase feeding/extraction reliability). Also, heavy .40 S&W bullets can cause dangerous pressure increases if set-back occurs, which can lead to kB!’s; this is much less of an issue with .357 SIG because of the bottle-necked design. The .357 SIG is significantly more powerful than the 9x19, even +P loads. Winchester states that its 125gr. JHP load has 506 ft. lbs. of ME; I have yet to find a 9x19 factory load that performs this well. However, the .357 SIG is not nearly as popular as .40 S&W or 9x19; this is the most significant strike against it. Edited to add: OK, the .357 SIG does have more recoil/blast/flash than the 9x19 as well as less magazine capacity. HOWEVER, it DOES fill an important niche.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:48:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Q-Man:
Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin: Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1....
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amen
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Amen Brothers. I dont have anything BAD to say about the .357 SIG, other than its an excellent example of marketing to law enforcement something thats not really needed. It generally is loaded to the same velocity of a .357 magnum out of a 2.5" barrel revolver, hardly an equal (go ahead, argue exaggerated factory over estimates v. chrono'd rounds all day). In my area at least, its difficult to locate, and when you do, its not cheap. Nor are there any affordable readily available practice rounds.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:53:45 PM EDT
Cartridge Velocity Energy Penetration in inches Expansion CCI-Speer 125 gr. Gold Dot 1385 533 16.5 .68 Cor-Bon 115 gr. Sierra JHP 1515 586 12.5 .58 Cor-Bon 125 gr. Sierra JHP 1440 576 13.3 frag. Cor-Bon 91 gr. BeeSafe 1525 470 7.0 frag. Federal 125 gr. JHP 1430 568 12.7 .62 Federal 150 gr. JHP 1140 433 18.0 .50 Federal 125 gr. Tactical 1410 552 12.0 .65 Glaser 80 gr. Blue Safety 1610 461 8.0 frag. Glaser 80 gr. Silver Safety 1610 461 9.0 frag. Hornady 124 gr. XTP-HP 1395 536 14.5 .55 Hornady 147 gr. XTP-HP 1210 478 16.2 .58 MagSafe 64 gr. Defender 2275 736 11.3 frag. Remington 125 gr. JHP 1350 506 14.3 .57 Triton 125 gr. JHP 1440 576 13.8 frag. Triton 115 gr. Quik-Shok 1425 519 9.0 3-frag. Winchester 125 gr. Ranger T 1385 533 11.5 .75 I have noticed the energy of the .357 Sig is consistently in the 500 fp level on average. This is significantly higher than 9mm +P and .45ACP and .45ACP +P fpe. It is not recommended that you shoot much .45ACP +P in a 1911 style pistol. There are not too many pistols that I would shoot 9mm +P+ ammo through. And 9mm +P ammo is not a significant cost savings compared to .357 Sig. Just my observations.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 10:56:25 PM EDT
Shoot the biggest bullet you can, 'cause you're damn sure not going to be shooting it very fast.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:00:11 PM EDT
Sounds like you had your mind made up, and posted here to get support for your decision. You don't have to convince us, it's your money. You buy what you want, and hopefully you'll love it. Sounds like you're sold, so go for it.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:05:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By norman74: Sounds like you had your mind made up, and posted here to get support for your decision. You don't have to convince us, it's your money. You buy what you want, and hopefully you'll love it. Sounds like you're sold, so go for it.
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Well, my thread title was tongue-in-cheek. I made this thread because I wanted to see how the members here like the round or if they didn't. It has no bearing on my final conclusions, of course, but I was curious. So far, it seems the caliber is not popular here for various reasons, namely a loyalty to the .45ACP, which is a great cartridge, too. My only criticism of the .45ACP is the limited capacity of its guns, usually 7-10 rounds.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:21:24 PM EDT
[URL]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000581.html[/URL]
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:31:24 PM EDT
Not for me, I'll still take the 10mm or some of the choicer .45 loads available.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:35:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By Q-Man:
Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin: Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1....
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amen
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Amen Brothers.
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Uh...... Getting any of this yet..... There's a reason this combo was the USGI handgun for 80 years.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:37:22 PM EDT
Well, for me I would carry .357Sig over .45ACP.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:42:34 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 11:44:11 PM EDT by raven]
I have nothing against the round, other than it is kind of oddball with not enough strong points to warrant selecting it, except out of idiosyncracy.
Link Posted: 12/27/2003 11:57:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/27/2003 11:59:29 PM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By SGB: the round was indistinguishable from a 9mm+P.
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That's because ballistically speaking, they are nearly identical. Except the .357 has more recoil, is harder on the weapon, and has more muzzle flash. I'm sure there's more, but it's 3AM and I'm tired. (reading more responses reminded me. You get .40SW capacity with 9mm +p ballistics...) In a nutshell, I'd rather have a 9mm +p or +p+ over the .357 (and yes, I DO have a .357S).
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:00:23 AM EDT
That's because ballistically speaking, they are nearly identical.
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I'm not doubting you, but I would appreciate a ballistic chart to support your statement.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:05:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By Q-Man:
Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin: Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1....
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amen
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Amen Brothers.
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Uh...... Getting any of this yet..... There's a reason this combo was the USGI handgun for 80 years.
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You forgot to mention "venerable" in there [:)]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:08:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2003 12:09:52 AM EDT by brouhaha]
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
That's because ballistically speaking, they are nearly identical.
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I'm not doubting you, but I would appreciate a ballistic chart to support your statement.
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You'll have to search around if you want the data tonight. But I will provide you with this: [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html[/url] This is linked within the first link: [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum1/HTML/000432.html[/url] Note this phrase...basically what I just said: "[red]The best that can be said of the .357 Sig is that it equals the 9mm in terminal performance, although at the price of less ammunition capacity along with greater recoil, muzzle flash, and wear on the weapon.[/red]"
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:08:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SNorman:
Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By Q-Man:
Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin: Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1....
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amen
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Amen Brothers.
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Uh...... Getting any of this yet..... There's a reason this combo was the USGI handgun for 80 years.
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You forgot to mention "venerable" in there [:)]
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If you carry a round out of a sense of tradition, then fine, but it does not mean it is ballistically superior.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:20:17 AM EDT
Ultimate doesn't mean jack if the person who is shooting the "gun" can't hit the target (as in control the gun). Everyone is going on stoping power, bullet size, energy and wounding affect. I say, go with what you can shoot and control. Heck, in six months to a year, someon will be asking if the .45 GAP will be the "ultimate" round.... since Glaston Glock came out with it. I have all those rounds that everyone has metioned (9mm Luger, 40 S&W, .357 Sig, .45 ACP, 10mm, .357 Mag) and a bunch more. I've loaded some 40 SW that would sting your hand (out of a G27), but I couldn't control it...so what' the point. Same goes w/ the 10mm....loaded them so hot that it stung my hand and that's in a S&W 610!!!! And the 357 Mag, call me a wimp, but there are some loads I dare not shoot.... Me, heck, give me a 22LR semi pistol and some good rounds. I'll hit my target everytime. Will it stop someone? Sure. Will it stop everyone? Probobly not, but I can shoot knee caps out if center of mass doesn't work. May the flaming continue...
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 12:22:08 AM EDT
Me, heck, give me a 22LR semi pistol and some good rounds. I'll hit my target everytime. Will it stop someone? Sure. Will it stop everyone? Probobly not, but I can shoot knee caps out if center of mass doesn't work.
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Gunkid... [:D]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:00:37 AM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut: If you carry a round out of a sense of tradition, then fine, but it does not mean it is ballistically superior.
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I carry the round because I trust it, no one has to claim its [b]as good[/b] as other rounds, and I find my .45ACP platform or choice, the 1911, ergonomically superior and more "shootable" than any other design.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:04:29 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2003 1:06:07 AM EDT by rugerman1022]
All hail the venerable .45 Automatic Colt Pistol God sent his only son, the .45, to die on the cross for our sins [img]http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_hail2.gif[/img][img]http://images.ar15.com/forums/smiles/anim_bow.gif[/img] Ohh 45... thou shalt not use you name in vain nor forsake thy neighbors ass with thyn graven image
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:12:07 AM EDT
I gotta say that anyone that would carry anything other than a .45acp is a moron. Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong. [;D] I own 6 handguns, and they're all 1911s in .45acp. John Moses Browning IS God. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:40:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/28/2003 2:40:36 AM EDT by KA3B]
I have a .357 Sig because I like having to pay extra for ammo, playing the "do you have it in stock" games, always having Billy-Bob the gun store flunkie hand me .357 magnum and then look at me like I asked to fuck his one legged sister when I say "no, .357 Sig please". I have a Glock 23 with a .357 Sig barrel.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:58:33 AM EDT
I made my mind up which round was best when I was shooting bowling pins. 9MM and 357SIG often wouldn't knock the pins over, while 45ACP would send them tumbling every time.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 3:14:43 AM EDT
You pay your money and make your choice. We can debate the merits of any and all calibers. To me when I carried, it was a Colt Combat Commander in 45 ACP. I shot a min of 150 rounds a week with that gun and became very accurate with shot placement. All the calibers discussed previously are all good. How good are you with your gun? BobK
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 3:30:16 AM EDT
If you can find the .357Sig ammo, it will be more expensive of course... ok, so far. Then, depending on intended use, range, street or bedroom, there is still considerable flash and noise, along with reduced capacity. You really need all that at 3AM? I lean toward proven things as opposed to new kids on the block anyway. My final answer would be no. [thinking] Ever notice lack of .357Sig or .40 S&W in +P? The .357Sig...novelty status, along with the 9MM rimmed, 9MM WinMag, the .41 A&E and the .45AR.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 6:28:13 AM EDT
My only criticism of the .45ACP is the limited capacity of its guns, usually 7-10 rounds.
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Not usualy found to be a problem by those who train for real life, and train not to miss.[;)]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 6:54:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Valkyrie:
Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Originally Posted By Q-Man:
Originally Posted By TacticalPenguin: Well, as anyone who know should tell you, the best handgun round is of course the .45acp preferably fired out of a 1911A1....
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amen
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Amen Brothers.
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Uh...... Getting any of this yet..... There's a reason this combo was the USGI handgun for 80 years.
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The reason they didn't change was the expense for a weapon the army considered insignificant. The .45 was issued to paymasters who needed both hands free to carry the money, cooks, truck drivers, people who had no use for a rifle. It would be a mistake think this longevity was due to the army thinking it was a great weapon.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 6:59:41 AM EDT
Let's assume our always popular hypothetical SHTF scenario. What ammo am I going to have the easiest time finding? I'm thinking 9mm and .45. But that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 7:05:27 AM EDT
I like the 9X23 winchester better. But then, I liked the Colt 1911 that came with it.[:D]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 8:00:18 AM EDT
The only pistols I shoot are a G32 & G33. I have others but I rarely shoot them. If you practice with the 357 Sig you'll never notice more recoil. It seems high at first but with some time it becomes a non-issue, if your willing to work with it. I've shot some 45 and it didn't take my arm off like so many said it would. Speer Gold Dot and Winchester white box have negligible muzzle flash. Both the 32 & 33 are more accurate than my 17 or 19, no better or worse than my 23. I'm not exactly MR. pistol and I don't have numbers in front of me, but I don't think recovery time between shots is much of an issue in defensive type scenarios. I think you'll love it. And you can pack 14rds which is better than 8 but not as good as 18.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:02:22 PM EDT
Load your 9mm with Win Ranger RA9T or CCI/Speer 124Gn GDHP. Then spend the money you would have spent on a .357Sig and ammo on some training at Gunsite or Thunder Ranch.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:06:12 PM EDT
Originally Posted By clean_cut:
That's because ballistically speaking, they are nearly identical.
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I'm not doubting you, but I would appreciate a ballistic chart to support your statement.
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Here's one with pictures [url]http://64.177.53.248/ubb/Forum78/HTML/000581.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:22:38 PM EDT
I like the .45 ACP and will stick with it! Thanks, BigDozer66
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:35:51 PM EDT
Is the .357Sig the ultimate semi-auto handgun caliber?
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We don't seem to think so. But if you want one, help yourself. [:D] Personally, I will go with the "venerable' ([:D]) 1911 in .45 ACP. "Never get in a gun fight with a pistol, the caliber of which does not begin with at least a 4." As Jeff Cooper tells the story of Sgt. York (paraphrased): "Seven Germans and their officer circled around behind Sgt. York. They decided to charge him with bayonets. When they began their charge, he saw them, realized that he could not get them all with his 5 shot rifle, and drew his 1911. He shot the last one first and then worked forward, shooting each and stopping them with one shot. Eight men, all stopped with one shot, in the time it takes to run 20 yards. This shows what a great fighting man can do with a great fighting pistol." I agree. Give me a 1911 loaded with .45 ACPs.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:53:04 PM EDT
Originally Posted By gus: I made my mind up which round was best when I was shooting bowling pins. 9MM and 357SIG often wouldn't knock the pins over, while 45ACP would send them tumbling every time.
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Well, while I am a fan of the .45ACP, I like the .357Sig. My experience shooting steel was quite different. .357Sig was the only cartridge to dent my steel plates. .45ACP, .45Super, .38, .40 all failed. .50AE made a crater and .357Mag made a dent smaller than the Sig round. Just my personal experience.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 1:53:14 PM EDT
I would rather have a 10mm than a 357 sig. but what the heck do I know ?????
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:07:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Mbsk01:
Originally Posted By gus: I made my mind up which round was best when I was shooting bowling pins. 9MM and 357SIG often wouldn't knock the pins over, while 45ACP would send them tumbling every time.
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Well, while I am a fan of the .45ACP, I like the .357Sig. My experience shooting steel was quite different. .357Sig was the only cartridge to dent my steel plates. .45ACP, .45Super, .38, .40 all failed. .50AE made a crater and .357Mag made a dent smaller than the Sig round. Just my personal experience.
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Mbsk01, I believe your experience. I hope you won't think this is a personal attack, but please consider... If I am ever attacked by bowling pins or steel plates, this would be important data. But almost all assailants are men. Experience indicates that a large caliber round tends to work well on men. Fast moving, expanding bullets work well also, but only if they expand as designed. As Clint Smith points out, when you shoot someone with a .45ACP, he will always have a .45 caliber hole through him, whether the bullet expands or not.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:16:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Old_Painless: As Clint Smith points out, when you shoot someone with a .45ACP, he will always have a .45 caliber hole through him, whether the bullet expands or not.
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I agree. According to what I've read the most effective round in police experience is the 125gr JHP .357 Magnum round (then again, that's most police carried for the longest period, too.) However much I like the .357 Magnum, and it's new incarnation in the 125gr 357Sig, the .45ACP is my choice as well for a defensive pistol. Hell, the muzzleblast from either .357 flavorings is enough to make me flinch without ear protection.
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 2:33:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cyanide: I would rather have a 10mm than a 357 sig. but what the heck do I know ?????
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Me too, especially with full power ammo in the 10. Danny
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