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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 10/4/2002 7:08:58 AM EDT
The police have no evidence that the shooting was done with an AR-15 other than a bullet that may be a .223, but they are parading ARs all over the place. Yet, we all know about the terrorist training tapes. But based on no evidence to the contrary, they have ruled out that it was a terrorist attack. All that, and the shots taken were not that difficult to make from a marksmanship standpoint. From a human standpoint shooting multiple people has got to be a very difficult thing to do. Which would seem to make it even more likely it was a terrorist attack. Instead of looking for what I would consider the most likely suspects (terrorists), they are asking people to turn in their neighbors who own and shoot “evil black rifles.” Who out there is going to show their friends/family their collection in the future? Not ME!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:23:42 AM EDT
unless they are withholding significant details, the police really have no evidence at all to go on. despite the resources of the FBI, ATF, CIA, Secret Service and anyone else in the area, there appears to have been little to no headway made in the past 24 hours on the case. so yea, i've been wondering what all this crap about the ar15 is. to me, it seems far more likley that a bolt action would be used. but then again, maybe there are details not known. even so, it seems as if all they are doing is workign from a possible psychological profile of the shooter because that is all they can do. and apparently they decided an ar15 was a key part of that mind set. jackasses. also though, is the idea that law enforcement, despite all of the available resources, is helpless to do anything in this case. and it should be glaringly obvious to those that think about it, how vulnerable any person can be and how there is a limit to the protectioin that law enforcement can provide. maybe the ar15 and all the other assualt talk is a convenient way to distract people from that realization.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:24:48 AM EDT
You are 110% correct on this. They are using this tragedy as a springboard in the war on black rifles and the people who own them. Not only that...they have zero evidence that these cowards even used an AR. All my friends and family know me as a shooting enthusiast and gun lover. It would appear that one must now conceal the love of sport/target shooting and hunting [rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:29:17 AM EDT
[It would appear that one must now conceal the love of sport/target shooting and hunting] Quite the contrary...........now is the time to stand and be counted.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:39:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By RAVYN: [It would appear that one must now conceal the love of sport/target shooting and hunting] Quite the contrary...........now is the time to stand and be counted.
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You know what...Good Point! I do represent the law abiding, safe, hardworking, tax paying, family man that loves to shoot, hunt, & fish. Fuck em.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:46:46 AM EDT
No matter what kind of a gun the killer used.....It doesn't look good for all of us AW's owners. Sure Law Enforcements, politicians and the Media will put the blame on the AWs period. I am afraid that our future does not look good.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:54:27 AM EDT
In the "legal" sense.....yes we are screwed. There is no way that the government will allow us to win........no matter what!!! But I made my mind up along time ago that I am proud of what I do and in my heart I am no criminal...........I can die with a clear concience...........my major concern is my family..........I'd hate to have to put them thru alot of shit.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:05:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/4/2002 8:09:29 AM EDT by HbarOwner]
Originally Posted By AR_Rifle: No matter what kind of a gun the killer used.....It doesn't look good for all of us AW's owners. Sure Law Enforcements, politicians and the Media will put the blame on the AWs period. I am afraid that our future does not look good.
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DO NOT count me among the LEO's who blame AWs. I live and work near where this occurred. I wish that we had a CCW law and that some fine citizens had turned that white truck and its occupants into swiss cheese! That's why I am praying that Bob Ehrlich gets in the governor's office instead of KKT. I just have a sick feeling that my prayers won't be enough for this lilly-livered, banana-backboned liberal state.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:08:24 AM EDT
Hey guys! Since when has it ever been easy for any black rifle owner or gun owner in America? We are always under attack for our 2nd amendment beliefs. This is simply another example. It's never good when a crime happens with a gun, especially an AR or other type weapon. But if we all act to denounce it as the terrible act that it is, we act to protect the legal rights of AR owners such as ourselves. I agree with RAVYN, let's stand and be counted as law-abiding AR owners! (my $.02)
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:08:43 AM EDT
I hear ya!.....and I am with ya.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:39:02 AM EDT
It does not matter now, the damage has been done. The gov't, and the media whores, have pulled their usual bait and switch - can't find the PERSON that is responsible, quickly move on to the the FIREARM 'that is responsible' for running around killing people. Ask anyone today, next week or next year about this and the weapon will be the dreaded, 'killer assault rifle', even if it turned out to be a hi-velocity red ryder.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 9:42:05 AM EDT
I wonder how they know what type rifle fired the rounds? Did they find the cases?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 9:45:17 AM EDT
No, they didn't find the cases. This is just a quick way to get people to focus their anger on a piece of metal. Since the police can't actually find the person/people responsible, they have to further their anti-gun agenda by focusing all this knee-jerk fear and anger on a firearm.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 9:55:28 AM EDT
The cops are idiots. In the press conference I saw, they held up an FNC. For crissake, if the crime was actually committed with an FNC, I will eat my fucking shooting mit! It was the most "evil looking" and spreading more fear is what this incident is good for. There are dozens of rifles chambered for the .223/5.56, but the most common one by far is the AR-15. So it would be right to hold up an AR, but also right to hold up a Savage 10FP or other light varmint rifle which can be purchased at any Wal-Mart.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 9:59:33 AM EDT
My guess is that the examination of any recovered slugs will tell the tale. For instance, a slug with 1X12 rifling striations will lead LEO's to consider either an SP1, a Daewoo or a bolt action rifle. Those rifles generally sport 1x12" twist barrels. However, if they discover that the rifling twist was 1X9", then that bit of evidence would tend to indicate a recent model HBAR or post-ban sporter. Most of these later AR's feature 1X9" twist rates. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that current Remington bolt actions sport 1X12" twists.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:16:32 AM EDT
I already have an idea on the repercussions from this mess. Maryland in particular and the USA in general may very well turn into the type of gun control that has taken over Great Britain.It could happen MUCH SOONER that anyone predicted! The SHEEPLE DON'T GIVE A DAMN! They will FEED ON NEWS,ANY NEWS,be it the TRUTH or LIES!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:17:38 AM EDT
Originally Posted By PINGi3: My guess is that the examination of any recovered slugs will tell the tale. For instance, a slug with 1X12 rifling striations will lead LEO's to consider either an SP1, a Daewoo or a bolt action rifle. Those rifles generally sport 1x12" twist barrels. However, if they discover that the rifling twist was 1X9", then that bit of evidence would tend to indicate a recent model HBAR or post-ban sporter. Most of these later AR's feature 1X9" twist rates. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that current Remington bolt actions sport 1X12" twists.
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The Remington 700 VLS is a 1X12". Can't speak about the rest. I don't see how they can tell the rifle twist by looking at the bullet. The bullet will identify the rifle's lands and groves and any unique charateristics about the particular barrel. I don't think you can determine the barrel twist by looking at the bullet. Now if they had the rifle, that would be a different story.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:34:40 AM EDT
The only thing that appears obvious to me is that it is Al Queda, or Palestinian. If it's true that there are two of them, one is a spotter/driver, the other the sniper. I believe the vehicle spotting is crap. It took everyone by suprise that the shots were taken at 100-200 yards. How many reports have we had about training camps, shooting 100000s of rounds, killing everything in sight, men women, children. Even today the Washington Times is reporting that this week intelligence was gathered about our schools, from elementary through university will be targets of gunmen. WTF and why the hell is not TERRORISTS leading the headline of this shooting. The Governor ought to demand that everyone with a gun be ready to defend themselves and that all Muslims be rounded up and put in camps for interrogation.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:48:52 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 5:35:40 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:14:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: FWIW: Rem PSS and Savage 10FP bolt rifles have 1:9 twists. ARs have been made with virtually every available twist rate, including: 1:16 (for .22LR) 1:14 1:12 1:10 1:9 1:8 1:7.7 1:7 -Troy
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Now I'm going wacko. . . the PSS is different from the 700P, then, in terms of barrels? "Knew" that the VS and PSS shared the same barrel, but the 700P has a twist rate of 1/9" for .223, and the VS has a rate of 1/12", right?
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 7:43:10 PM EDT
Originally Posted By MrP: I don't see how they can tell the rifle twist by looking at the bullet.
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They can tell by comparing the bullets' circumference and the angle of the land/groove impressions on the bullet.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:03:41 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:34:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: At least it wasn't a .50 BMG or the six people murdered would be dead. [^]
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Sorry, thought this line was a good one... debating on putting it in my list of famous quotes or not... :)
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:36:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:46:21 PM EDT
Even if they had evidence that it was an AR. Even if they found out for sure it was an AR, they shouldn't do anything. Crimes are comitted ALL THE TIME with 9mm handguns, and they havn't taken those away.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 8:52:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: [The murder of the people in MD is a result of a human being and the only way to prevent this from happening again is for the people of MD to stand up and defend themselves.] Unfortunately, the elitists in power in the Peoples Republic of Maryland only allow their citizens the right to die, not to defend themselves. It's sad and shameful. I'm just glad I live on the other side of the river where we have the right to defend ourselves.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 9:59:30 PM EDT
Are you guys looking at what you are writing? 5 people get murdered and you guys are more worried about your ARs. I've seen folks actually hope it was a bolt action rifle that did the killing to take the heat off the ARs. People died here folks. Get a grip. Good greif. The paranoia is palpable. Relax. No one is going to take your ARs from you. Put all that energy into thinking of and helping the families of the murdered. Not everything is about taking your guns away. And yeah I've got two AR15s among other weapons in the house. Sometimes I get really embarrassed by the paranoia that shows up here.
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:08:54 PM EDT
Here in Texas alot of us do carry ccw. And they would have been turned into swiss cheese. Its not too late, get here as fast as you can!
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:16:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/4/2002 10:17:13 PM EDT
That was a good point: [b] They didn't ban planes after 09.11.01 didthey?[/b] As usual, 'Law Enforcement' doesn't have a clue what's going on, so they try to misdirect the sheeple by parading ominouslooking implents before the salivating media whores. Why don't we have [b]our own press conference[/b] and decry their spurious, irresponsible actions and ask them some tough questions?
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 12:01:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 3:58:44 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 4:59:56 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Guppy223: Are you guys looking at what you are writing? 5 people get murdered and you guys are more worried about your ARs. I've seen folks actually hope it was a bolt action rifle that did the killing to take the heat off the ARs. People died here folks. Get a grip. Good greif. The paranoia is palpable. Relax. No one is going to take your ARs from you. Put all that energy into thinking of and helping the families of the murdered. Not everything is about taking your guns away. And yeah I've got two AR15s among other weapons in the house. Sometimes I get really embarrassed by the paranoia that shows up here.
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Time to change the aquarium water guppy........
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 5:27:46 AM EDT
DO NOT count me among the LEO's who blame AWs. I live and work near where this occurred. I wish that we had a CCW law and that some fine citizens had turned that white truck and its occupants into swiss cheese! That's why I am praying that Bob Ehrlich gets in the governor's office instead of KKT. I just have a sick feeling that my prayers won't be enough for this lilly-livered, banana-backboned liberal state.
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You may be a great person and gun owner, but as long as your union and your national group is supported by individual policemen you cops as a group are opposed to guns openly and publicly. Here in my town the police have started a jihad against the CCW reform by vowing street punishment against anyone who holds a permit to carry, by orders of their union.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 5:48:12 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Guppy223: Are you guys looking at what you are writing? 5 people get murdered and you guys are more worried about your ARs. I've seen folks actually hope it was a bolt action rifle that did the killing to take the heat off the ARs. People died here folks. Get a grip. Good greif. The paranoia is palpable. Relax. No one is going to take your ARs from you. Put all that energy into thinking of and helping the families of the murdered. Not everything is about taking your guns away. And yeah I've got two AR15s among other weapons in the house. Sometimes I get really embarrassed by the paranoia that shows up here.
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After JFK was shot, we got the National Firearms Act of 1968. After the guy in Stockton California used an AK in a school, (yea I know his name, but I won't soil this site by printing it) we got the assault rifle ban. After Luby's, we got more legislation. After the shooting on the subway, we got McKarthy (sp?)in the House. We have all seen it time and time again. Every time something like this happens, we get screwed. We didn't do this and we are tired of getting the blame. And now any and all AR owners are to be subjected to search because of this BS call to turn in your neighbor? Welcome to the police state, where all known suspects (that means anyone that owns whatever it is this week) are to be rounded up. Yea we read it. We feel for the victims and their families. We are as sick by it as anyone else. We are also sick of people using these things to further their own political goal of disarming Americans that have comitted no crime. Just sit back in the next few days and watch all the hoopla about banning AW on the "news". We are not paranoid, we just know our enemies, because we have been fighting this battle for a long time. It has nothing to do with crime control, it has everything to do with people control. Just ask Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Fidel and the rest. (Sorry for the rant)
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 5:56:59 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 6:19:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By MrP:
Originally Posted By PINGi3: My guess is that the examination of any recovered slugs will tell the tale. For instance, a slug with 1X12 rifling striations will lead LEO's to consider either an SP1, a Daewoo or a bolt action rifle. Those rifles generally sport 1x12" twist barrels. However, if they discover that the rifling twist was 1X9", then that bit of evidence would tend to indicate a recent model HBAR or post-ban sporter. Most of these later AR's feature 1X9" twist rates. I think (please correct me if I'm wrong) that current Remington bolt actions sport 1X12" twists.
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The Remington 700 VLS is a 1X12". Can't speak about the rest. I don't see how they can tell the rifle twist by looking at the bullet. The bullet will identify the rifle's lands and groves and any unique charateristics about the particular barrel. I don't think you can determine the barrel twist by looking at the bullet. Now if they had the rifle, that would be a different story.
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If they have enough unexpanded bullet it would be easy to deermine the twist rate. The problem here is the perp used expanding type ammo, most likely "varmit" construction based on the wound profiles I have heard (one report was a "fist-sized entry wound). Even so, there shouuld be enough of the base left to determine the twist rate. This is of little utility unless it is determined to be a 1:8" or 1:7".
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 6:31:57 AM EDT
If we accept and acquiesce in the face of discrimination, we accept the responsibility ourselves and allow those responsible to salve their conscience by believing that they have our acceptance and concurrence. We should, therefore, protest openly everything that smacks of discrimination or slander.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 6:49:08 AM EDT
All we are doing is worring about our ar15's!!! were pissed that they are blamming ar15's when they don't even know what type of gun is used why? they are doing this to get these guns banned. why not capitalize on this crime huh! I think letter's need to written to them tell there police chief if he want's to get relected stop the blamming guns that you don't have evidence of being used.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 7:15:25 AM EDT
The chief is probably appointed and dont give a rats ass.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 7:21:31 AM EDT
If this point has been made already forgive me but, as most of us here on this site know a .223 rem round tends to make a lot of noise to be as small as it is. So I am thinking of maybe the possibility of a suppressor, this would tend to help explain the lack of witnesses to the shootings. Oh I almost forgot, it couldn't be suppressor related because as we all know, they were made illegal in 34 and also as we know when you make something evil illegal we all live in a safer world![rolleyes]
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 7:33:00 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 7:39:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 7:47:16 AM EDT
How hard would it be identify a bullet when it fragments? Also could this guy have been using a .22-250 or a .222?
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 8:11:31 AM EDT
Originally posted by 321Bang:
as we know when you make something evil illegal we all live in a safer world!
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Now if we could only make murder illegal all of our problems would be solved.[rolleyes] .....and we could stop all bank robberies by legislation limiting the maximum speed a vehicle could be operated at. We could call it a SPEED LIMIT! WOW! As rediculous as that sounds, it's the same mentality of the anti-gun types who believe that the fear of enforcement of a lesser misdemeanor or felony will deter the commision of a capital offense. The very notion is so silly it would be laughable if the majority of the public wasn't inclined to go where ever the media steers them. Here's another thing to ponder: Some of these shootings happened in the District of Columbia, right? Can you legally own an AR-15 in DC? I don't think so. So, if it is illegal to own one, how could one have possibly been used if gun control works? Several on this board have come close to scolding others for worrying about their Constitutional rights more than the families of the victims of this heinous spree. For those people I say that nothing can be done to bring back the victims, so don't let their demise distract you from the end game of the anti-gunners. While I am not inclined to say that anti-gun zealots would organize such a spree to move their agenda forward, they most certainly will capitalize on it. They are hoping that we avert our eyes to their grandstanding out of shame or associated guilt that the media so broadly splashes our way. The proper thing to do is to stand up and be counted; and to vehemently denounce whomever is responsible for these shootings. Someone mentioned that this could actually be an Al-Queda thing. I don't know about that since it seems so localized, but I also don't know to what extent their ability to communicate beyond the cell level has been degraded. I am also suspicious about the lack of reports heard, but a sound proofed panel van with only a small opening could knock the sound down quite a bit. A sound suppressor is also possible I suppose, but that sure would tend to point to an organizational sponsorship rather than one or two kooky white guys with family trees that don't fork (standard media profile of AW owners). I saw part of that news conference yesterday where they paraded those weapons around, and instantly thought that it made them seem desperate to divert attention away from the fact that they didn't know anything about what had happened, and that they were powerless to protect anyone. That is the real message in this criminal episode: The police are powerless to protect you from evil. That should be the mantra to those who will certainly use this to further hamper a citizen's ability to take responsibility for their own protection. Saleen
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 8:22:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DoubleFeed: Buzzworm, after Luby's, we got CHL in Texas! Yes, Anne Richards vetoed it under her administration, but George W. Bush passed it under his!
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This is true. You also got Dr. Suzanne Gratio (I hope I spelled it right) in the State Leg. You folks in Texas Got it right. Help the citizen to protect himself and his neighbors. I saw a blurb on tv a while back that Dr. Gratio (sp?) was trying to get Texas Leg. passed to allow school admins. carry rights in schools. More power to her. She has a good head on her shoulders. Have a good one. BW
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 8:30:33 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Guppy223: Are you guys looking at what you are writing? 5 people get murdered and you guys are more worried about your ARs. I've seen folks actually hope it was a bolt action rifle that did the killing to take the heat off the ARs. People died here folks. Get a grip. Good greif. The paranoia is palpable. Relax. No one is going to take your ARs from you. Put all that energy into thinking of and helping the families of the murdered. Not everything is about taking your guns away. And yeah I've got two AR15s among other weapons in the house. Sometimes I get really embarrassed by the paranoia that shows up here.
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guppy, I for one do feel for the victims families!If you had read MORE posts about these murders and the overall scope of whats going on at THIS SITE,then maybe you would understand but I doubt it! And if you're embarassed by "all the paranoia", GROW UP! YOU....Don't even live here! DON'T speak for those OF US THAT DO LIVE HERE! Its apparent that you DO NOT have a CLUE WTF is going on here behind the scenes! It doesn't really matter if these murders were caused by a SEMI-AUTO or a Bolt Action! EVEN if was done with a BLACK POWDER gun, IT DOESN'T MATTER! The MAJORITY OF POLITICIANS in this state are GUN GRABBERS! I suppose you can read, RIGHT?Then read the F-ing papers! The bitch running for Governor would make the present Gov., look like a PRO-GUN politician,WHICH HE IS NOT! You should expand your life OUTSIDE OF A FISHBOWL! And now they are openly asking for SNITCHES! I'll bet that you would FIT RIGHT IN! And IT DOESN'T MATTER how MANY GUNS that YOU HAVE TO ME! You still sound like a FAIR WEATHER,WHINY,LIBERAL WIMP! There is a saying attributed to Confucius and its applicable here. "Its better to let people think you are an idiot, than to open your mouth and remove ALL DOUBT! BTW, I have LIVED HERE all my life and I know what I'm talking about when it comes to THIS STATE! Oh,I'm not just worried about AR's, I AM WORRIED ABOUT ALL GUNS. The anti-gunners FEED ON THESE INCIDENTS! YOU NEED TO GET A GRIP!
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 8:32:20 AM EDT
Happyshooter, I noticed that you didn't put down where you lived, why not. If you have documentation or proof that the police union is organizing an effort to usurp your Constitutional rights, what have you done besides post it here? Have you contacted any representatives? The NRA, GOA, etc.? All that it takes for evil to triumph is for good men to do nothing. Remember that. Since I don't know where you are from, I can't comment on the police mentality towards guns in your area. I can say that you paint us with an awfully broad brush when you say that "we" are anti-gun. In this area, and especially in my department, the overwhelming majority of the department are pro-gun. You can also find NRA stickers on windows and NRA / GOA membership cards in wallets. Several of the more outspoken proponents (like myself) also regularly write our representatives concerning 2nd ammendment issues. In fact, I'd be willing to bet that I have more letters in to my congress critters in the last year than most of the members on this board will write in a lifetime. I'm sure that there are anti-gun cops out there. I even know a few, though I don't call them friends. My point is that alot of us are working just as hard as you are to keep all of our remaining liberties intact, and I take it personally sometimes when I am grouped into a segment that I despise. I'm not asking for a group hug or anything like that, but stereotyping like that is exactly what pisses us (pro-gun community) off about the media and anti-gun types. Sorry for the rant. I'll get off my soapbox and yield the balance of my time to whomever cares to comment. Saleen
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 11:36:45 AM EDT
IM response to your main questions.... public apology, though, for sort of suggesting a board poster is a bad person. My attempted point was that national cop groups and the unions as a body are total anti-gunners. The second point was that my local force was bad, each and every one, as they were obeying their union and violating gunner's rights.
Link Posted: 10/5/2002 4:07:56 PM EDT
Originally Posted By lostwildcat: Do not take the cowardly way out of this situation and blame a weapon of any type for the heinous acts of A PERSON OR PERSONS who took the lives of innocent Americans. To do so would be akin to blaming 737's for the WTC attacks. Maybe it's time for a new t-shirt. "When 737s are outlawed, only outlaws will fly 737s. As we all know, it's never been the inanimate objects in our lives that cause problems. Will the rest of the world ever realize this? ==Bob
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