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Posted: 8/8/2005 6:20:06 AM EDT
He is now 43 years old. His record this year is 11-4 with an ERA of 1.38, the lowest of the majors. He has 339 wins in his career and has won seven Cy Youngs. This year he may win his eighth.

Who's been better over the last 20 years? Anyone?

I think Randy Johnson and Curt Schilling are the only current pitchers who have similiar longevity and credentials but they fall far short of Clemens. Pedro Martinez has some credentials (not nearly as much, however) and has only pitched for about half the time.

Well?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:22:41 AM EDT
Yes, and IMO, he's the greatest righthander in history. No one will ever top Nolan's strikeout total, but Roger is almost inhuman. His road ERA is ridiculously low, and if we had any sticks, he'd be undefeated right now.

He'll win another Cy this year...just watch.

HH
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:24:23 AM EDT
At 43, I'd say he's the best pitcher of the previous generation AND the current generation.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:24:34 AM EDT
I will reserve judgement until some other pitchers who are in his "generation" have ended their careers too.

There are guys like Johan Santana, Jake Peavy, Mark Prior, Carlos Zambrano who may put up some pretty incredible numbers.

However, my gut feeling is that Roger is the 2nd best pitcher ever, right behind Nolan Ryan.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:24:49 AM EDT
Sid Finch is easily the greatest pitcher of the past 30 years. Makes Clemens and Nolan Ryan look like fat slow pitch softballers.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:30:50 AM EDT
Didn't Clemens flip off the crowd for booing him?

Great role model (low ERA / high SO or not)

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:31:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By DzlBenz:
At 43, I'd say he's the best pitcher of the previous generation AND the current generation.


That's a good point.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:34:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Didn't Clemens flip off the crowd for booing him?

Great role model (low ERA / high SO or not)




I'm curious....

Have you never raised a 1-finger salute in public?

Though I don't believe I've heard of the Rocket flipping a crowd off.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:38:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:
Sid Finch is easily the greatest pitcher of the past 30 years. Makes Clemens and Nolan Ryan look like fat slow pitch softballers.





Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:39:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By dvr9:
Sid Finch is easily the greatest pitcher of the past 30 years. Makes Clemens and Nolan Ryan look like fat slow pitch softballers.








Come on guys, you've never heard of Sid Finch? SI had a great write up/scouting report on him several years back.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:41:47 AM EDT
Yesterday's game:
_______________________________________________________________________

Rocket rights Astros
Clemens masters Giants, offense ignites to end 3-game skid
By JOSE DE JESUS ORTIZ
Copyright 2005 Houston Chronicle


SAN FRANCISCO - After watching the National League West's fourth-place Giants beat Andy Pettitte and Roy Oswalt while the Astros' offense went AWOL on consecutive days, Roger Clemens took the SBC Park mound Sunday afternoon knowing there might not be much offensive support.

Clemens had seen the Astros' offense derail the team early in the year, so he did his part long enough to keep the Astros close until his teammates broke open a close game with a four-run rally in the eighth inning.

With another dominant performance from Clemens, the Astros beat the Giants 8-1, snapping a three-game losing streak to avoid a three-game sweep before a sellout crowd of 42,947.

"I almost expect it," catcher Brad Ausmus said of Clemens' dominant outing. "He's setting a standard for himself that's very tough to maintain, and somehow he continues to maintain it."

Clemens (11-4) held the Giants to six hits and one unearned run with two walks and four strikeouts over seven innings, lowering his road ERA to 0.37 and his overall ERA to 1.38. Those marks lead the majors.
With the victory, the Astros increased their lead in the National League wild-card race to two games over the Washington Nationals.

Until the four-run rally in the eighth, the Astros appeared in danger of suffering their first four-game losing streak since they were at their lowest this season.

The Astros have not lost four in a row since they dropped seven straight from May 18-24, the losing streak that dropped them to a season-high 15 games under .500 (15-30).

HH

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:43:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dvr9:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By dvr9:
Sid Finch is easily the greatest pitcher of the past 30 years. Makes Clemens and Nolan Ryan look like fat slow pitch softballers.








Come on guys, you've never heard of Sid Finch? SI had a great write up/scouting report on him several years back.



I know WHAT it is....hence the rolling of my eyes.

It was a stupid gag then, it's a stupid gag now.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:44:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 6:44:24 AM EDT by Merrell]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Didn't Clemens flip off the crowd for booing him?

Great role model (low ERA / high SO or not)




I'm curious....

Have you never raised a 1-finger salute in public?

Though I don't believe I've heard of the Rocket flipping a crowd off.



Could be wrong, thought there was a notable incident where he did just that. (Sure, I;ve flipped people off, not the ones that put bread on my table though)

Here's another shining moment from Clemens' career;



I guess in the modern era of steroid-freak ball throwing a bat is pretty tame, then again when you grew up watching the likes of Aaron, Mays & Clemente, it was a little different...

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 6:52:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Didn't Clemens flip off the crowd for booing him?

Great role model (low ERA / high SO or not)




I'm curious....

Have you never raised a 1-finger salute in public?

Though I don't believe I've heard of the Rocket flipping a crowd off.



Could be wrong, thought there was a notable incident where he did just that. (Sure, I;ve flipped people off, not the ones that put bread on my table though)

Here's another shining moment from Clemens' career;

images.usatoday.com/sports/nate/08clemens.jpg

I guess in the modern era of steroid-freak ball throwing a bat is pretty tame, then again when you grew up watching the likes of Aaron, Mays & Clemente, it was a little different...




Your comment was about being a role model.

Aaron, Mays and Clemente had to speak softly and carry themselves "just right". They were not too far removed from racial injustice that surrounded baseball in that era.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:20:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Merrell:
Here's another shining moment from Clemens' career;

images.usatoday.com/sports/nate/08clemens.jpg


Yes, that was a bizarre thing he did.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:22:41 AM EDT
Steroids?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:10:06 AM EDT
John Smoltz is the my favorite...He's done it all. Start, Middle relief, Closer, And he's a damn good hitter(for a pitcher)

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:13:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:02:37 AM EDT by mmx1]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Steroids?



The roidheads tend to burn brightly and briefly. The compilcations catch up with them and end their careers early. Part of Clemen's mystique is that he's continued his dominance so late in his career.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:19:46 AM EDT

Originally Posted By shooter0311:
John Smoltz is the my favorite...He's done it all. Start, Middle relief, Closer, And he's a damn good hitter(for a pitcher)

espn-i.starwave.com/media/apphoto/STS10308060100.jpeg



Different generation, but Sandy Koufax (I've seen it spelled many ways...dunno which is correct) was definately a renaissance pitcher...
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:23:45 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Steroids?



The roidheads tend to burn brightly and briefly. The compilcations catch up with them and end their careers early. Part of Clemen's mystique is that he's continued his dominance so late in his career.




Ralfie does not follow your theory.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:25:08 AM EDT
He has 3 earned runs on the road all year. He is a freak. If he can get any run support from the astros he can get an 8th Cy Young. I think he would have to get atleast 16 wins.

3 of his losses are when the stro's were shutout. They have no bats.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:31:18 AM EDT
To earn the title of "best pitcher" the candidate would also have to show a record of good sportsmanship, which I would consider an unwritten prerequisite for professional sports.

So no...Clemen's is definately NOT the best pitcher of this generation. He can throw the ball, granted, but the guy's an asshole.

Unfortunately, that 'prerequisite' also disbars many other 'professionals' out there.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:47:54 AM EDT
Greg Maddux. Here is a guy who rarely has thrown harder than 90 mph but has struck out over 3000 batters, he has like 4 different fastballs, slider, several curveballs, and one hell of a changeup to go along with his incredible control.

In 4329.0 innings has only walked 897 batters, about half of those walks Bobby Cox forced him to intentionally walk the batter.

He reached the 300 win at the age of 38, one of the youngest pitchers ever to do so. He is also consistantly ranked by NL hitters as the toughest pitcher to face as you rarely get a pitch worth hitting, he is always changing speeds, and he has studied tapes on all the hitters.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:53:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Greg Maddux. Here is a guy who rarely has thrown harder than 90 mph but has struck out over 3000 batters, he has like 4 different fastballs, slider, several curveballs, and one hell of a changeup to go along with his incredible control.

In 4329.0 innings has only walked 897 batters, about half of those walks Bobby Cox forced him to intentionally walk the batter.

He reached the 300 win at the age of 38, one of the youngest pitchers ever to do so. He is also consistantly ranked by NL hitters as the toughest pitcher to face as you rarely get a pitch worth hitting, he is always changing speeds, and he has studied tapes on all the hitters.


I thought of Atlanta's gaggle of fine hurlers (Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz) but figured Johnson and Schilling were better.

Those three were fantastic, however. Hard to believe their lack of success in the World Series.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:56:17 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:00:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
The greatest pitchers I have personally seen are in this order.............

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Roger Clemons
3. Randy Johnson
4. Orel Hershiser
5. Tom Glavine
6. Greg Maddux



Too bad you never got to see Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver.

Wow.

HH
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:03:00 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Steroids?



The roidheads tend to burn brightly and briefly. The compilcations catch up with them and end their careers early. Part of Clemen's mystique is that he's continued his dominance so late in his career.




Ralfie does not follow your theory.



Canseco was plagued by injuries late in his career and was not the home run demon he was in the 80's. So was Caminiti, though I'm not sure he ever admitted to steroid use, though it was widely suspected, because he was so injury-prone. Mark McGuire, an andro user, was regularly on the DL for his last few seasons.

The increase in muscle mass and strength that comes from roid use isn't accompanied by a corresponding increase in bone strength, so there's increased stress on the bones and joints, that results in susceptibility to injuries.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:04:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:05:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:07:59 AM EDT by rogerdodger]

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
I will reserve judgement until some other pitchers who are in his "generation" have ended their careers too.

There are guys like Johan Santana, Jake Peavy, Mark Prior, Carlos Zambrano who may put up some pretty incredible numbers.

However, my gut feeling is that Roger is the 2nd best pitcher ever, right behind Nolan Ryan.



they are not the 2 best ever (Clemens top 10, Ryan no)
Ryan could be unhittable at times, but not consistent.

60's- Koufax(best ever)
70's- Seaver,Carlton
85-95- Clemens
95-present , Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson

Maddux has to be right in there

My pop told me the best he ever saw til 2000 when he passed
were Koufax and Feller
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:05:39 AM EDT
Too bad we can't trust ANY of the athletes anymore.......
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:08:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/8/2005 9:09:14 AM EDT by Wobblin-Goblin]

Originally Posted By rogerdodger:
they are not the 2 best ever (Clemens top 10, Ryan no)
Ryan could be unhittable at times, but not consistent.




60's- Koufax(best ever)
70's- Seaver,Carlton
85-95- Clemens
95-present , Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson


Eh? I'll be willing to bet that Clemens has more wins, more strikeouts, and more Cy Youngs than Petey has since 1995.

You are waaaaay off base here.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:09:26 AM EDT
Clemens is unbelievable. I personally believe that Nolan Ryan was better, but I'm not sure if you consider him in the same Generation or not.

Only Randy Johnson, amongst currently active players, belongs in the same sentance as Clemens. Johnson's well behind the Rocket in wins, but wins are a bad stat (and the Unit played for some Crappy teams). The two of them are pretty close in many others. Both are assured of a first-ballot visit to Cooperstown, that's for sure.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:15:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:

Originally Posted By HoustonHusker:

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
The greatest pitchers I have personally seen are in this order.............

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Roger Clemons
3. Randy Johnson
4. Orel Hershiser
5. Tom Glavine
6. Greg Maddux



Too bad you never got to see Bob Gibson or Tom Seaver.

Wow.

HH



I know, I am young (30), there are a few I wish I could have seen...........

Gibson, Seaver, Koufax, Dean



+1 to all that.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:23:54 AM EDT

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Steroids?



The roidheads tend to burn brightly and briefly. The compilcations catch up with them and end their careers early. Part of Clemen's mystique is that he's continued his dominance so late in his career.




Ralfie does not follow your theory.



Canseco was plagued by injuries late in his career and was not the home run demon he was in the 80's. So was Caminiti, though I'm not sure he ever admitted to steroid use, though it was widely suspected, because he was so injury-prone. Mark McGuire, an andro user, was regularly on the DL for his last few seasons.

The increase in muscle mass and strength that comes from roid use isn't accompanied by a corresponding increase in bone strength, so there's increased stress on the bones and joints, that results in susceptibility to injuries.



What I meant was Rafael Palmeiro played year in and year out and he used roids.

Caminiti used crack and coke and admitted to winning the MVP on roids.

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:26:01 AM EDT
He didn't pitch very long, but Houston's JR Richards was incredible.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:26:56 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Steroids?



The roidheads tend to burn brightly and briefly. The compilcations catch up with them and end their careers early. Part of Clemen's mystique is that he's continued his dominance so late in his career.




Ralfie does not follow your theory.


Neither does Barry Bonds.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:30:25 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dport:
Neither does Barry Bonds.


Sure he does. Where's he now?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:30:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Greg Maddux. Here is a guy who rarely has thrown harder than 90 mph but has struck out over 3000 batters, he has like 4 different fastballs, slider, several curveballs, and one hell of a changeup to go along with his incredible control.

In 4329.0 innings has only walked 897 batters, about half of those walks Bobby Cox forced him to intentionally walk the batter.

He reached the 300 win at the age of 38, one of the youngest pitchers ever to do so. He is also consistantly ranked by NL hitters as the toughest pitcher to face as you rarely get a pitch worth hitting, he is always changing speeds, and he has studied tapes on all the hitters.



People dont' think highly of MadDog because he isn't a power pitcher. He's just a quiet, unassuming guy who just goes out and does what he has to do. He's a thinking pitcher.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:32:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ASUsax:
Clemens is unbelievable. I personally believe that Nolan Ryan was better, but I'm not sure if you consider him in the same Generation or not.

Only Randy Johnson, amongst currently active players, belongs in the same sentance as Clemens. Johnson's well behind the Rocket in wins, but wins are a bad stat (and the Unit played for some Crappy teams). The two of them are pretty close in many others. Both are assured of a first-ballot visit to Cooperstown, that's for sure.



Randy Johnson a first ballot HOF'er?



For what, exactly? Being a Gaylord Perry clone?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 9:34:08 AM EDT
Of the class of pitchers currently pitching, it is a toss up between Randy Johnson and Roger Clemons. The nod in my opinion goes to Clemons. There have been equally great pitchers before (Sandy Koufax, Bob Gibson) and there will be some after.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:09:06 AM EDT
Randy Johnson will be a 1st ballot HoF inductee. Clemens even more so (not that it's possible).
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:20:42 AM EDT
Can't forget about Steve Carlton...he was terrific for a number of years.

HH
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:30:08 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Burley:

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Greg Maddux. Here is a guy who rarely has thrown harder than 90 mph but has struck out over 3000 batters, he has like 4 different fastballs, slider, several curveballs, and one hell of a changeup to go along with his incredible control.

In 4329.0 innings has only walked 897 batters, about half of those walks Bobby Cox forced him to intentionally walk the batter.

He reached the 300 win at the age of 38, one of the youngest pitchers ever to do so. He is also consistantly ranked by NL hitters as the toughest pitcher to face as you rarely get a pitch worth hitting, he is always changing speeds, and he has studied tapes on all the hitters.



People dont' think highly of MadDog because he isn't a power pitcher. He's just a quiet, unassuming guy who just goes out and does what he has to do. He's a thinking pitcher.




Maddox looks like an accountant.

He also thinks like one. That guy remembers every pitch he ever threw to anyone. He will get batters to look at a (slow) fastball right down the middle, and swing at junk in the on-deck circle.

Since 1988, Maddox has never won fewer than 15 games. He probably won't get there this year, but that is incredible.


Maddox gets it done with less than powerful stuff, but has similiar career ERA and win/loss totals to Clemens.

Maddox, I believe, shares Clemens' rarified air.

Clemens is an amazing pitcher though. AT 43, he can still bring the heat when he needs it, and his breaking stuff is better than ever.

His ERA this year is incredible, as is his 11 wins.

He is probably in the top five of best pitchers ever.

My top five is (not necessarily in this order--and players that I've actually watched in my lifetime--how would I know how good was Christy Mathewson?):

Nolan Ryan

Steve Carlton--(often overlooked these days, but was right behind Ryan in Ks until Clemens--and had THE most wicked slider EVER--also is/was a weirdo and liked to do karate kicks in the OATMEAL--loathed talking to the media--entered the Hall of Fame in 1994).

Greg Maddox

Lee Smith

Roger Clemens

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:31:09 AM EDT
Randy Johnson pitches the WHOLE game. Most pitchers make like 5 or 6 innings.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:34:57 AM EDT
Warren Spahn was the best lefty of all time with 300 plus wins. He had it all speed, control, and in his later years a screwball that owned outside of the plate on right handed hitters. He would have been ever greater if he was wounded in the foot in Germany during WW1. The guy was awesome when he was pitching for the Braves it was a NL saying "Spahn and Sain and pray for rain"
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:59:39 AM EDT
One point I think everyone is missing. Clemens isn't bringing the heat like he did in the past. Clemens has studiously avoided too many breaking pitches because he thought it would shorten his career. With his success it looks like he made the right choices. However, this year he's throwing more than the usual two or three pitches. He's got some nasty breaking stuff and now, at the end of his career, he's using it.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:00:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By dport:
Neither does Barry Bonds.


Sure he does. Where's he now?


He's over 40. Many players over 40 have physical problems. Look at his career before now. No unusual DL stints.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:07:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Wobblin-Goblin:

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Greg Maddux. Here is a guy who rarely has thrown harder than 90 mph but has struck out over 3000 batters, he has like 4 different fastballs, slider, several curveballs, and one hell of a changeup to go along with his incredible control.

In 4329.0 innings has only walked 897 batters, about half of those walks Bobby Cox forced him to intentionally walk the batter.

He reached the 300 win at the age of 38, one of the youngest pitchers ever to do so. He is also consistantly ranked by NL hitters as the toughest pitcher to face as you rarely get a pitch worth hitting, he is always changing speeds, and he has studied tapes on all the hitters.


I thought of Atlanta's gaggle of fine hurlers (Maddux, Glavine, Smoltz) but figured Johnson and Schilling were better.

Those three were fantastic, however. Hard to believe their lack of success in the World Series.



Actually, Smoltz had always done well in the playoffs. Maddux and Glavine always crashed and burned in the playoffs for some reason.

When Glavine and Maddux both left here, I was sorry to see Maddux go, but NY can keep that sour faced Glavine, who has shown that he has been washed up for some time.

I always thought when he was here, he concentrated on the Player's Association bullshit more than he did his pitching.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:08:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigscrun:
The greatest pitchers I have personally seen are in this order.............

1. Nolan Ryan
2. Roger Clemons
3. Randy Johnson
4. Orel Hershiser
5. Tom Glavine
6. Greg Maddux



You put Glavine ahead of Smoltz????

...........or maybe you just haven't seen Smoltz.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:11:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By FredM:

Originally Posted By mmx1:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Steroids?



The roidheads tend to burn brightly and briefly. The compilcations catch up with them and end their careers early. Part of Clemen's mystique is that he's continued his dominance so late in his career.




Ralfie does not follow your theory.



Canseco was plagued by injuries late in his career and was not the home run demon he was in the 80's. So was Caminiti, though I'm not sure he ever admitted to steroid use, though it was widely suspected, because he was so injury-prone. Mark McGuire, an andro user, was regularly on the DL for his last few seasons.

The increase in muscle mass and strength that comes from roid use isn't accompanied by a corresponding increase in bone strength, so there's increased stress on the bones and joints, that results in susceptibility to injuries.



Also, IIRC, that crap did a number on Alzado (I know, football, not baseball, but the analogy is the same).
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 12:14:02 PM EDT

Originally Posted By magnum_99:

Originally Posted By Burley:

Originally Posted By eodtech2000:
Greg Maddux. Here is a guy who rarely has thrown harder than 90 mph but has struck out over 3000 batters, he has like 4 different fastballs, slider, several curveballs, and one hell of a changeup to go along with his incredible control.

In 4329.0 innings has only walked 897 batters, about half of those walks Bobby Cox forced him to intentionally walk the batter.

He reached the 300 win at the age of 38, one of the youngest pitchers ever to do so. He is also consistantly ranked by NL hitters as the toughest pitcher to face as you rarely get a pitch worth hitting, he is always changing speeds, and he has studied tapes on all the hitters.



People dont' think highly of MadDog because he isn't a power pitcher. He's just a quiet, unassuming guy who just goes out and does what he has to do. He's a thinking pitcher.




Maddox looks like an accountant.

He also thinks like one. That guy remembers every pitch he ever threw to anyone. He will get batters to look at a (slow) fastball right down the middle, and swing at junk in the on-deck circle.

Since 1988, Maddox has never won fewer than 15 games. He probably won't get there this year, but that is incredible.


Maddox gets it done with less than powerful stuff, but has similiar career ERA and win/loss totals to Clemens.

Maddox, I believe, shares Clemens' rarified air.

Clemens is an amazing pitcher though. AT 43, he can still bring the heat when he needs it, and his breaking stuff is better than ever.

His ERA this year is incredible, as is his 11 wins.

He is probably in the top five of best pitchers ever.

My top five is (not necessarily in this order--and players that I've actually watched in my lifetime--how would I know how good was Christy Mathewson?):

Nolan Ryan

Steve Carlton--(often overlooked these days, but was right behind Ryan in Ks until Clemens--and had THE most wicked slider EVER--also is/was a weirdo and liked to do karate kicks in the OATMEAL--loathed talking to the media--entered the Hall of Fame in 1994).

Greg Maddox

Lee Smith

Roger Clemens




Ahem, his name is Maddux.
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