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Posted: 9/1/2009 2:49:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2009 2:50:18 PM EST by T1NMAN]
A good read by John MacArthur

If God is sovereign, is He responsible for evil?

"No. Scripture says that when God finished His creation, He saw everything and declared it "very good" (Genesis 1:31). Many Scriptures affirm that God is not the author of evil: "God cannot be tempted by evil, and He Himself does not tempt anyone" (James 1:13). "God is light, and in Him there is no darkness at all" (1 John 1:5). "God is not the author of confusion" (1 Corinthians 14:33)-and if that is true, He cannot in any way be the author of evil.

Occasionally someone will quote Isaiah 45:7 (KJV) and claim it proves God made evil as a part of His creation: "I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things" (emphasis added).

But the New American Standard Bible gives the sense of Isaiah 45:6-7 more clearly: "There is no one besides Me. I am the Lord, and there is no other, the One forming light and creating darkness, causing well-being and creating calamity; I am the Lord who does all these." In other words, God devises calamity as a judgment for the wicked. But in no sense is He the author of evil.

Evil originates not from God but from the fallen creature. I agree with John Calvin, who wrote,

. . . the Lord had declared that "everything that he had made . . . was exceedingly good" [Gen. 1:31]. Whence, then comes this wickedness to man, that he should fall away from his God? Lest we should think it comes from creation, God had put His stamp of approval on what had come forth from himself. By his own evil intention, then, man corrupted the pure nature he had received from the Lord; and by his fall drew all his posterity with him into destruction. Accordingly, we should contemplate the evident cause of condemnation in the corrupt nature of humanity-which is closer to us-rather than seek a hidden and utterly incomprehensible cause in God's predestination. [Institutes, 3:23:8]

It is helpful, I think, to understand that sin is not itself a thing created. Sin is neither substance, being, spirit, nor matter. So it is technically not proper to think of sin as something that was created. Sin is simply a lack of moral perfection in a fallen creature. Fallen creatures themselves bear full responsibility for their sin. And all evil in the universe emanates from the sins of fallen creatures.
For example, Romans 5:12 says that death entered the world because of sin. Death, pain, disease, stress, exhaustion, calamity, and all the bad things that happen came as a result of the entrance of sin into the universe (see Genesis 3:14-24). All those evil effects of sin continue to work in the world and will be with us as long as sin is.

First Corinthians 10:13 promises us that God will not permit a greater trial than we can bear. And James 1:13 tells us that God will not tempt us with evil.

God is certainly sovereign over evil. There's a sense in which it is proper even to say that evil is part of His eternal decree. He planned for it. It did not take Him by surprise. It is not an interruption of His eternal plan. He declared the end from the beginning, and He is still working all things for His good pleasure (Isaiah 46:9-10).

But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).



Link Posted: 9/1/2009 3:34:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 10:05:40 AM EST by SAE]
I do not know if God about His own initiative is responsible for evil.

God's Word does however say that not one thing without Him was created though.

It is possible that evil is a negitive bi-product of righteousness that is manifested because of a cursed and corrupted enviroment, using different avenues in which to infect it's host possibly.

I know that He made Himself responsible for our sins thus taking on that resposibility for us.

We also know that the wages of evil behavior(sin) leads to death.

We know too that there was a tree in the Garden of Eden which partially contained the full knowledge of evil, in which I would imagine was what we would call evil and about it's content.

It is also reported in God's Word that evil exists or existed not only here on earth but in heaven also, as it entered into Lucifer and others before they were dispached to earth from heaven as the outcome concerning His judgement, like a bolt of lightning.

We know that there is usually some form of what man considers to be evil, that either influences us daily or makes an attempt to sway some of the decisions we make.

We also know that at the end of this age that the Father will judge the one's who loved and practiced evil and will judge them into eternal damnation from His ''White Throne of Judgement''.

So yes, in that sense God has and will take responsibility for evil and the containment of it, to ensure it's neutralization and nullification in the end before His new beginning.

And so be it.

Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 9/1/2009 3:48:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2009 3:48:52 PM EST by ziarifleman]
He is no more or less responsible for it than you would be when your children disobey you.
Link Posted: 9/1/2009 7:48:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/1/2009 8:14:44 PM EST by bigj480]
Never mind, I'm staying out of this one.
Link Posted: 9/1/2009 8:18:00 PM EST

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?


Link Posted: 9/1/2009 9:29:03 PM EST
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




You may feel guilty, but I wouldn't think you are actually guilty.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 5:39:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 5:44:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 5:45:34 AM EST
If I create a gun but someone steals it from me and uses it to kill someone, did I kill that person?
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 8:38:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By Regency:
If I create a gun but someone steals it from me and uses it to kill someone, did I kill that person?


This is a serious question right?

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 8:50:35 AM EST
Originally Posted By SAE:
Originally Posted By Regency:
If I create a gun but someone steals it from me and uses it to kill someone, did I kill that person?


This is a serious question right?



It's the same question of agency and free will Dino posed, but phrased in a less emotionally provocative manner.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 9:16:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 9:22:55 AM EST by tbonifie]
Dark is not a thing unto itself. It is the absence of light.

Emptiness is not a thing unto itself. It is the absence of something.

Evil is also not a thing unto itself. It is the absence of Good.

God is, by definition, the source of all Good.


Did God create evil? Well, sort of, but only in the same way that when you get up from a chair you leave an empty space.

God gave humans free will. In giving us free will, God has agreed to respectfully remove his active positive influence on us when we reject him. Like a good neighbor that knows when he is no longer welcome and leaves the house. When God is absent, emptiness, or what we refer to as Evil, is what remains. When man decided to go his own way rather than follow God's commands, he actively chose to remove Good from himself.

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 10:24:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 10:26:24 AM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




That would depend on the situation.

Normally though, in my opinion the two should share in their accountability equally, even in the allowance by law concerning capitol punishment, if it were ever an option to be applied for such a crime.

For one millstone will pull down into the depths, the same way as another.

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 12:24:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By SAE:
Originally Posted By Regency:
If I create a gun but someone steals it from me and uses it to kill someone, did I kill that person?


This is a serious question right?



It's the same question of agency and free will Dino posed, but phrased in a less emotionally provocative manner.

No it isn't. If you create gun and someone steals it isn't the same. If you happen upon the thief using that gun to pistolwhip someone to death during a mugging then you have the choice to act to prevent the murder. If you aren't in the area when the murder occurs, you are not responsible.

The problem is the way God has been defined is usually omniscient, omnipotent, and omnibenevolent. That simply doesn't fit with the observed world.

If you take any one of the three out, then the problem of evil is no longer a problem.

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 12:36:49 PM EST

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Dino:

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?

Perhaps, but you did not create the molestor nor give him the ability to make choices in this life.

IOW, you are not God and the same rules/standards cannot be applied (assuming a sovereign God, as the OP did in posing this question).


Sovereign or not, if he chooses to allow evil to exist for his greater plan, he is still in part responsible for any evil he has the power to stop and is aware of.

No one is saying he doesn't have the right to allow evil to exist, or that the way things are might be better than whatever alternative is out there.

God can be sovereign and still be partly responsible. Being sovereign doesn't excuse God from responsibility and being responsible doesn't in any way limit his sovereignty.

Responsibility doesn't come from sovereignty, it comes from knowledge and ability. If you don't know or can't do something to affect it, it isn't your responsibility. Since God is all knowing and all-powerful, the buck stops with him.

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 12:42:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2009 4:14:22 AM EST by Junbuggg]
____________
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 12:45:50 PM EST

Originally Posted By SAE:
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




That would depend on the situation.

Normally though, in my opinion the two should share in their accountability equally, even in the allowance by law concerning capitol punishment, if it were ever an option to be applied for such a crime.

For one millstone will pull down into the depths, the same way as another.


Agreed, it does depend on the situation.

In a way I find this discussion to be the opposite of the Good Samaritan parable. If the Samaritan was praiseworthy for his actions, weren't the actions of the priest and temple assistant also worthy of condemnation?

In essence, the question is really is God a good neighbor? Looking at the world I would have to say no.

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 12:48:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 12:56:12 PM EST by Dino]
ok so you don't believe God is everywhere? Most believe the combined abilities of omniscience and omnipotence imply God knows everything and is in all places simultaneously.

I prefer the limited omniscience solution to both the problem of free will and the problem of evil, but I can see how having a limited area of effect would do the same thing.


Originally Posted By Junbuggg:
No, I don't believe God is responsible for evil. Evil shows up when God is not present. Is God responsible for not being present. Nope, that's what free will is all about.


Link Posted: 9/2/2009 1:06:53 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 1:07:48 PM EST by HardShell]
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 1:13:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2009 4:14:39 AM EST by Junbuggg]
________________
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 1:38:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 1:39:42 PM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By Junbuggg:
Originally Posted By Dino:
ok so you don't believe God is everywhere? Most believe the combined abilities of omniscience and omnipotence imply God knows everything and is in all places simultaneously.

I prefer the limited omniscience solution to both the problem of free will and the problem of evil, but I can see how having a limited area of effect would do the same thing.


Originally Posted By Junbuggg:
No, I don't believe God is responsible for evil. Evil shows up when God is not present. Is God responsible for not being present. Nope, that's what free will is all about.




Oooppps, my bad. That came out wrong. Yes Dino, I do believe God is everywhere. But no, I don't believe He is "responsibe" for evil. Humanity, and the existance of Satan within our world is what "causes" evil. God is always present, but whether or not He chooses to interviene in an evil act is entirely up to Him. (Hope that came out right)


Actually, through His Word I am more compelled to believe that it is more up to us, using our authority given us in Jesus' name.

Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 1:53:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 4:17:08 PM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Dino:

... God can be sovereign and still be partly responsible. Being sovereign doesn't excuse God from responsibility and being responsible doesn't in any way limit his sovereignty...

I'll respectfully disagree.

If He is indeed sovereign then He has no "responsibility" to us beyond what He may choose to impose Himslef and impart to us; His ways are beyond our understanding and we cannot judge Him by our standards; we have neither the authority nor the ability to question His actions or judgements; He is not accountable to us in any way, shape, or form.

That is the God that I worship. (I realize that I am in the minority on this, of course.)



Brother Shell,

Do you believe that God might among other things, have sent His Son to die on the cross, because He indeed did take into account, some sort of accountability for putting contained evil in a place where Himself being God, and knowing all things, would allow the first of His human creations to be decieved by a creature much more intellegent and cunning than they?

I mean, not in the sense of accountability as one would think of himself or another, but for righteousness sake, for lack of a better description of it.

I'm not sure about this one.

Maybe you can help?

Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 2:41:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Dino:

... God can be sovereign and still be partly responsible. Being sovereign doesn't excuse God from responsibility and being responsible doesn't in any way limit his sovereignty...

I'll respectfully disagree.

If He is indeed sovereign then He has no "responsibility" to us beyond what He may choose to impose Himslef and impart to us; His ways are beyond our understanding and we cannot judge Him by our standards; we have neither the authority nor the ability to question His actions or judgements; He is not accountable to us in any way, shape, or form.

That is the God that I worship. (I realize that I am in the minority on this, of course.)


I got you now. Yeah I have a hard time with that concept.


Link Posted: 9/2/2009 5:29:43 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 8:27:12 PM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By SAE:
Originally Posted By HardShell:

Originally Posted By Dino:

... God can be sovereign and still be partly responsible. Being sovereign doesn't excuse God from responsibility and being responsible doesn't in any way limit his sovereignty...

I'll respectfully disagree.

If He is indeed sovereign then He has no "responsibility" to us beyond what He may choose to impose Himslef and impart to us; His ways are beyond our understanding and we cannot judge Him by our standards; we have neither the authority nor the ability to question His actions or judgements; He is not accountable to us in any way, shape, or form.

That is the God that I worship. (I realize that I am in the minority on this, of course.)



Brother Shell,

Do you believe that God might among other things, have sent His Son to die on the cross, because He indeed did take into account, some sort of accountability for putting contained evil in a place where Himself being God, and knowing all things, would allow the first of His human creations to be decieved by a creature much more intellegent and cunning than they?

I mean, not in the sense of accountability as one would think of himself or another, but for righteousness sake, for lack of a better description of it.

I'm not sure about this one.

Maybe you can help?

Thanks,

SAE



Now here are some more posed questions; We know through God's Word that we are commanded to do two things; To love the LORD God with all that is within us, and to love our neighbor as ourselves.

OK, how much is a man humanly capable of loving His God.

I submit to you that however much a man has the capacity to love God, that it may very well not be enough in our present condition to satisfy God completely, and I don't see how it could, for God wants all of us, completely, yet He cannot or will not look upon sin.

In that sense I believe Junbuggg was correct.

God knows and senses evil wherever it may be, However even in His Word, He speaks from His throne saying,''The rampantness of their sin has stacked all the way to heaven and has come before Me, and has become a stench in My nostrils.''

Who did God consider to be Adam and Eve's neighbors?

Themselves, one to another?

Was, Jehovah, the Father present when His only begotten Son cried out in pain and agony nailed to a crimminal's cross shouting; ''Eli, Eli. lem'a sabachth'ani,'' that is,''My GOD, My GOD, why have You forsaken Me!

Can God stand before sin, which is the active commission of evil, as a direct witness to it in a passive state, knowing through His Word that He is a jealous God, and is prone to righteous anger when provocted?

Can God stand to witness evil in an agressive form and destroy it, or does God send His messegers to do His will concerning this?

Could God indeed have witnessed His Son crucifiction on the cross, or could He not bear to watch and experiance it close up and on the scene?

If Jesus told His disciples that,''I and My father are One,'' then could the Father have internally escaped the pain and suffering as well as the emotional upheaval of His own Son?

What then?

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 6:19:47 PM EST
Here's my thoughts on God and evil.

Light doesn't make dark. Dark is what you get when there is no light. If you go outside at night and it's dark, you cannot blame the light for creating it and you cannot blame the light for forcing you to go outside.

If God is good and the source of good, then when you eliminate him or move away from him, you get bad. He didn't make it, it's just what we call the absence of good.

When he made everything it was good. If he is perfect good, he is incapable of making evil (otherwise he wouldn't be good or perfect).
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 6:42:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 6:43:50 PM EST by happycynic]
I view evil as a lack of good. Accordingly, God can be said to create evil in the sense that He gives new souls free will, and until these souls learn to perfect themselves, and always choose good, they will have the capacity to choose evil. To train souls to choose good over evil, God creates schools such as earth - schools which pit us in a life or death struggle against one another for limited resources, and which give us a million motives to harm one another through murder, rape, theft, adultery, etc. Our challenge is to learn to prefer the good in spite of these obstacles. Or, to quote one of my favorite books, "God created Arrakis to train the faithful."

Link Posted: 9/2/2009 8:25:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/2/2009 8:26:09 PM EST by Pacs]
Originally Posted By Dino:
ok so you don't believe God is everywhere? Most believe the combined abilities of omniscience and omnipotence imply God knows everything and is in all places simultaneously.

I prefer the limited omniscience solution to both the problem of free will and the problem of evil, but I can see how having a limited area of effect would do the same thing.


Originally Posted By Junbuggg:
No, I don't believe God is responsible for evil. Evil shows up when God is not present. Is God responsible for not being present. Nope, that's what free will is all about.






There goes free will, You may think it's free will, but God already knows your choice. He already knows everthing you will ever think or do. if not he does not have abilities of omniscience and omnipotence, and implying God knows everything and is in all places simultaneously.
Link Posted: 9/2/2009 9:06:11 PM EST
No ...
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 3:47:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/7/2009 3:49:47 PM EST by barkley-addict]

If there's any God who created this vile world then he is certainly responsible for it. At the least, people would have to conclude that if there is is a God who watched all of the suffering and pain endured here on earth, and has the power to stop it but doesn't then God approves of it.

This was the difference maker between my former beliefs of christianity and present day lack of faith and agnostic beliefs, which are more and more becoming atheist beliefs, after all, if there is no god, only a world of physical life where the law of nature rules, this is exactly how life would unfold.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 4:16:16 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2009 7:17:42 PM EST by SAE]
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

If there's any God who created this vile world then he is certainly responsible for it. At the least, people would have to conclude that if there is is a God who watched all of the suffering and pain endured here on earth, and has the power to stop it but doesn't then God approves of it.

This was the difference maker between my former beliefs of christianity and present day lack of faith and agnostic beliefs, which are more and more becoming atheist beliefs, after all, if there is no god, only a world of physical life where the law of nature rules, this is exactly how life would unfold.


I can certainly see if one refuses to live a life based on faith in Jesus Christ, it could certainly appear that way to some.

Thanks,

SAE

Link Posted: 9/7/2009 4:56:16 PM EST
Trick question. God is not responsible for anything, there is no such thing. Stop looking for a crutch to get through life.
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 4:57:36 PM EST
Originally Posted By JWP58:
Trick question. God is not responsible for anything, there is no such thing. Stop looking for a crutch to get through life.


Why did you post then?
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 5:33:55 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2009 5:59:06 PM EST
Originally Posted By SAE:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

If there's any God who created this vile world then he is certainly responsible for it. At the least, people would have to conclude that if there is is a God who watched all of the suffering and pain endured here on earth, and has the power to stop it but doesn't then God approves of it.

This was the difference maker between my former beliefs of christianity and present day lack of faith and agnostic beliefs, which are more and more becoming atheist beliefs, after all, if there is no god, only a world of physical life where the law of nature rules, this is exactly how life would unfold.


I can certainly see if one refuses to live a life based on faith in Jesus Christ, it could certainly appeear that way to some.

Thanks,

SAE



Actions speak louder than words. I'm not refusing to have faith, I just don't, based on what is.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 12:20:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




You may feel guilty, but I wouldn't think you are actually guilty.

If I knew someone was molesting your child, and I did nothing to stop it I wouldn't be actually guilty of anything. (?)

mmmmmkay.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 6:19:47 PM EST
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




You may feel guilty, but I wouldn't think you are actually guilty.

If I knew someone was molesting your child, and I did nothing to stop it I wouldn't be actually guilty of anything. (?)

mmmmmkay.


No, you wouldn't.
That was underlined for the purpose of illustrating the need to remove your emotional bias about the event to think clearly about it.
Link Posted: 9/10/2009 8:01:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/10/2009 8:02:42 PM EST by kaos]

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




You may feel guilty, but I wouldn't think you are actually guilty.

If I knew someone was molesting your child, and I did nothing to stop it I wouldn't be actually guilty of anything. (?)

mmmmmkay.


No, you wouldn't.
That was underlined for the purpose of illustrating the need to remove your emotional bias about the event to think clearly about it.
I was trying to understand the extent of your sincerity.

I think your position is too alien for my personal comfort and nature. Turning a blind eye to injustice is an evil all it's own.

MY philosophy.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 2:55:47 AM EST
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By Dino:

Originally Posted By T1NMAN:
But God's role with regard to evil is never as its author. He simply permits evil agents to work, then overrules evil for His own wise and holy ends. Ultimately He is able to make all things-including all the fruits of all the evil of all time-work together for a greater good (Romans 8:28).

If I know someone is molesting a child and do nothing to stop it, doesn't that make me at least partly guilty for whatever happens?




You may feel guilty, but I wouldn't think you are actually guilty.

If I knew someone was molesting your child, and I did nothing to stop it I wouldn't be actually guilty of anything. (?)

mmmmmkay.


No, you wouldn't.
That was underlined for the purpose of illustrating the need to remove your emotional bias about the event to think clearly about it.
I was trying to understand the extent of your sincerity.

I think your position is too alien for my personal comfort and nature. Turning a blind eye to injustice is an evil all it's own.

MY philosophy.


The only conclusion would be that a God who does such approves of it happening.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 4:48:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

The only conclusion would be that a God who does such approves of it happening.


Or cares so much about your free will that He will allow you to choose to do the most evil and despicable things imaginable.

You will die for it, but that's later.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 6:33:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

The only conclusion would be that a God who does such approves of it happening.


Or cares so much about your free will that He will allow you to choose to do the most evil and despicable things imaginable.

You will die for it, but that's later.


I don't have a problem with the accountability aspect of it, but I have a problem with the suffering of innocents.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 6:52:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:

The only conclusion would be that a God who does such approves of it happening.


Or cares so much about your free will that He will allow you to choose to do the most evil and despicable things imaginable.

You will die for it, but that's later.


I don't have a problem with the accountability aspect of it, but I have a problem with the suffering of innocents.


An emotional or logical problem with it?
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:00:52 AM EST
I think God is evil.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:04:02 AM EST
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
I think God is evil.


What is your evidence to support that conclusion?
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:37:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
I think God is evil.


What is your evidence to support that conclusion?


The world itself.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:42:12 AM EST
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
I think God is evil.


What is your evidence to support that conclusion?


The world itself.


Could you expound on that a bit, it's a little vague.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 7:48:59 AM EST
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
I think God is evil.


What is your evidence to support that conclusion?


The world itself.


Could you expound on that a bit, it's a little vague.


what's vague about it, the world is full of evil, pain, suffering, starvation and death, God approves of it, has a hand in making it happen, and then supposedly God's going to burn a few billion of his loved ones to death eternally for getting it wrong or not believing in him in a world that he hides from.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 3:40:44 PM EST
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By ziarifleman:
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
I think God is evil.


What is your evidence to support that conclusion?


The world itself.


Could you expound on that a bit, it's a little vague.


what's vague about it, the world is full of evil, pain, suffering, starvation and death, God approves of it, has a hand in making it happen, and then supposedly God's going to burn a few billion of his loved ones to death eternally for getting it wrong or not believing in him in a world that he hides from.




He doesn't interfere in the good or the bad, it's his game, he plays it like he wants, the ending game, I have no idea.

There may be a Heaven and Hell, or there may be nothing. Live your life. In the end you will know.
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 4:25:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 9/13/2009 4:26:19 PM EST by kaos]

Originally Posted By Pacs:

He doesn't interfere in the good or the bad, it's his game, he plays it like he wants, the ending game, I have no idea.

There may be a Heaven and Hell, or there may be nothing. Live your life. In the end you will know.

Isn't that the point of praying to the Saints for intervention?
Link Posted: 9/13/2009 5:40:08 PM EST
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By Pacs:

He doesn't interfere in the good or the bad, it's his game, he plays it like he wants, the ending game, I have no idea.

There may be a Heaven and Hell, or there may be nothing. Live your life. In the end you will know.

Isn't that the point of praying to the Saints for intervention?


Even more that goes against what people say when something bad happens to say an innocent child and they say it's God's plan so somehow it will work for the good of God. Or God is testing someone. Or God does this or that to bring people closer to him ect., lots of examples of people believing God does cause things to happen. God could never have any plan for anyone if he didn't somehow influence life on earth.
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 8:27:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By Pacs:

He doesn't interfere in the good or the bad, it's his game, he plays it like he wants, the ending game, I have no idea.

There may be a Heaven and Hell, or there may be nothing. Live your life. In the end you will know.

Isn't that the point of praying to the Saints for intervention?
[/quote



Saints, I thought you were to pray to God?
Link Posted: 9/14/2009 8:30:52 AM EST
Originally Posted By barkley-addict:
Originally Posted By kaos:

Originally Posted By Pacs:

He doesn't interfere in the good or the bad, it's his game, he plays it like he wants, the ending game, I have no idea.

There may be a Heaven and Hell, or there may be nothing. Live your life. In the end you will know.

Isn't that the point of praying to the Saints for intervention?


Even more that goes against what people say when something bad happens to say an innocent child and they say it's God's plan so somehow it will work for the good of God. Or God is testing someone. Or God does this or that to bring people closer to him ect., lots of examples of people believing God does cause things to happen. God could never have any plan for anyone if he didn't somehow influence life on earth.


It's not God's plan to have millions of starving children on the earth. Shit happens, Good shit, bad shit. Who the crap is God testing with the starving children?
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