The country was founded on  principal that people would be free.  That each individual would have the responsbility to defend their freedom's,  and that the census would choose who would run the government.

In 1934 over 100 years after The United States of America was founded,  the National Firearms Act was passed into law.  It said that all citizens would have to register their arms and register to  manufacture them.  The first step to dearming the public and future enslavement?

In 1986 they passed the "Firearms Owners protection Act" which says that no new weapons can be manufactured for civilians anda transfer fee of 200$ for weapons made before the law was passed.  Step two in total enslavement?  And now by limited supply these weapons are selling for 15 thousand dollars +.  Nevermind the fact that they are outdated.

Now the US Military has b2 bombers,  artillery,  tanks,  vehicle mounted heavy machine guns,  missiles,  rockets,  and mines.  The same basic arsenal almost every other foreign army has.

How are we as a population supposed to suppress invasion,  protect the sovereighnty of our States,  and fight enemies foreign and domestic with Semi Automatic AR15 weapons?  We would not stand a chance in fighting a foreign army,  nevermind would we stand a chance in fighting against total enslavement by a potential future or current government who would try and take our freedoms.   And the criminals would probably have better guns too.

Not every American is patriotic.  Half of them probably could care less about the 2nd Amendment.  As long as they have their refrigerators full of food to feed themselves into a heart attack and can commit adultery in their spare time,  they dont really care much about anything else.  Most police officers dont support the 2nd Amendment,  they profile guns as only being owned by people who commit crimes(not all but most). I see it on TV,  randomn innocent guy gets some guns found in his house and they try to symbolizs him as a bad guy.  Im sure maybe even our enlisted soldiers dont support the 2nd Amendment. I would say that the people who support the 2nd Amendment is in a minority.

We just wouldnt be effective (the unorganized militia).  We would most likely be outgunned in most situations,  not many people would even fight in a militia situation to begin with,  and people think the government is some force that could never be questioned,  nevermind kept in check and balance by a show of force,  we wouldnt have any support.


In 1986 when the most unconstitional gun law in history was passed I was 4 years old.  I was an innocent child who was being exploited and there was nothing I could do.  I was being enslaved.

I blame each and every US citizen who was 17+ (militia age) in 1986 and did nothing to try and stop this traitorous gun law from being passed.

You will be fighting an enemy with gatling guns that can shoot 10 thousand rounds per minute while you fight back with your semi automatic ar15.  Or outdated automatic weapons.

Now we have the UN,  NATO,  and all other New World Order type of operations going on.  We have a government who thinks they can get away with supressing people's rights little by little and behind closed doors (Patriot Act).  We have the majority of the people in the country who now feel it is ok that we face enslavement,  as long as they have freedom of speech and religion they dont care because guns are evil.  But when it comes down to the time they lose those rights,  there wont be a damn thing they can do about it.

The Supreme Court wont even hear any lawsuits claiming the 1986 law is unconstitional.  

So again,  I blame the old timers.  They failed.  Now Bush wants to practically make the US a part of Mexico and Canada by sharing borders and who knows what else.  I have lost faith in my fellow Americans as being honorable people whom I can respect,  and whom share the ideals that the Constition meant to preserve.  I respect the people who founded this country,  that is all.

Well because most other unconstitional laws are irrelevant if we have an armed militia,  because who would have the power to enforce them(the laws) against the will of the patriots (constitutional defenders)?  

The 1st and 2nd amendments are THE most powerful rights we have as a people.  The first Amendment to strike reason in people,  the 2nd Amendment to protect our beleifs and freedoms.

Yes the U.S. is a slave nation, but not everyone !

I'm going to catch hell for this, but oh well

We would not stand a chance in fighting a foreign army

tell that to people in Iraq
yeah, long run if we stay long enough the insurgent terrorists will lose, but not before public opinion puts a real strain on the administrations for staying there
the US is much larger, more places to hide, and more armed citizens for an invader to deal with
use the arms we do have to get weapons from the military after ambushing and killing patrols

Not very affective against an airstrike,  you especially make a good target all grouped up like that.

(talking about the picture of the militia group).

Need some rocket emplacements,  cruise missiles.  Anti air defense's. anti armor weapons,  10,000 more people.  Space based defense.   None of those you can manufacture or own.  Your screwed.

The country started going in the  crapper when women got the right to vote.

You can debate causality, but you CANNOT debate correlation.

Quoted: I'm going to catch hell for this, but oh well We would not stand a chance in fighting a foreign army tell that to people in Iraq yeah, long run if we stay long enough the insurgent terrorists will lose, but not before public opinion puts a real strain on the administrations for staying there the US is much larger, more places to hide, and more armed citizens for an invader to deal with use the arms we do have to get weapons from the military after ambushing and killing patrols

We used our Army to liberate Iraq not our unorganized militia.

Also note that the federal government took control over the organized militia (The National Guard),  another step to total enslavement.  Now even the State's are regulated on how they call up their militia.  Isnt this the opposite of a republic?

Quoted: Yes the U.S. is a slave nation, but not everyone ! x-plane.org/home/sideslip/images/jftx/editedpoint.JPG

so you have guns ... but you still pay over 50% of your income to the government in taxes, right?

Quoted: Not very affective against a GPS guided bomb,  you especially make a good target all grouped up like that. (talking about the picture of the militia group).

You assume the pilot can make it to the air-base.

Quoted: Quoted: Yes the U.S. is a slave nation, but not everyone ! x-plane.org/home/sideslip/images/jftx/editedpoint.JPG so you have guns ... but you still pay over 50% of your income to the government in taxes, right?

Negative, most in the picture are self sufficient and do not pay income tax.

Quoted: Quoted: Not very affective against a GPS guided bomb,  you especially make a good target all grouped up like that. (talking about the picture of the militia group). You assume the pilot can make it to the air-base.

I assume they could.  I see 8 guys in the woods dressed up like rambo with assault rifles.  Not equipped to fight an Army.  And try sneaking into an Air Force Base.  And you cant shoot the airplane down without anti air missiles,  unless you got lucky hitting a plane at 10,000+ feet with an ar15 or m16.  GOOD LUCK.  Again,  your screwed.

First of all, some of your facts are just plain wrong. Case in point: " the National Firearms Act was passed into law. It said that all citizens would have to register their arms and register to manufacture them." The part in red is wrong.

There are others but I won't belabor the point.

Here's a Devil's Advocate question for you: Seeing as how virtually ALL privately-held machine guns in the US have been "registered" now for over 70 years... when is the confiscation going to start? I mean, the NFA has lasted ALMOST as long as the Soviet Union lasted and yet there has NEVER been anything close to a nationwide confiscation of machine-guns. So... does registration REALLY lead to confiscation?

Sheepole have been enslaved by the teachings from people that have not had to fight on their own soil for any freedom. Once it occurs agian, the 1st Amendment and the 2nd Amendment will then be realized for their powers.

Think that guns are no longer allowed in our schools, in IA, for any reason. I, age 28, was the last generation in IA to see a class in PE on gun safety in High School. Now we are sending 18 yr. olds to the world that have only been told guns aren't safe. They will fear guns for the rest of their lives.

Quoted: I assume they could.  And you cant shoot the airplane down without anti air missiles,  unless you got lucky hitting a plane at 10,000+ feet with an ar15 or m16.  GOOD LUCK.

Again you think everyone in the military is a mindless drone that follows all orders no matter how illegal, sure many are that way but not all and it only takes one in the right place at the right time.

Quoted: The country started going in the  crapper when women got the right to vote. You can debate causality, but you CANNOT debate correlation.

Bah.

1863. May 10th, to be exact.

Life - its never as bad as it seems, or as good as it seems.

Quoted: First of all, some of your facts are just plain wrong. Case in point: " the National Firearms Act was passed into law. It said that all citizens would have to register their arms and register to manufacture them." The part in red is wrong. There are others but I won't belabor the point. Here's a Devil's Advocate question for you: Seeing as how virtually ALL privately-held machine guns in the US have been "registered" now for over 70 years... when is the confiscation going to start? I mean, the NFA has lasted ALMOST as long as the Soviet Union lasted and yet there has NEVER been anything close to a nationwide confiscation of machine-guns. So... does registration REALLY lead to confiscation?

Yes you do have to register all of your firearms in one way or the other,  the information trail is in place.  Im not talking about your pillow pistol,  im talking about significant equipment that means a damn.


It is not the point about confiscation.  It is about the point that when it comes down to you putting up a fight,  you are inaffective.

Quoted: Yes the U.S. is a slave nation, but not everyone ! x-plane.org/home/sideslip/images/jftx/editedpoint.JPG

Are you photo shopp in that to hide ID's (eyes / faces)

Quoted: The reason why?  People didn't have the ability to comminucate the way we do now.  I was in college during the "AWB", and didn't hear a thing about it, even though I had an AR and was a member of the NRA.   With the new communication available, I do believe we will be able to "salvage" America.   YMMV

Yep. The internet is the great equalizer.

Quoted: Quoted: The country started going in the  crapper when women got the right to vote. You can debate causality, but you CANNOT debate correlation. Bah. 1863. May 10th, to be exact.

Most women have NO CLUE about what's going on in the world of politics.

And most of the one who try to are overwrought with emotion.

Quoted: Quoted: I assume they could.  And you cant shoot the airplane down without anti air missiles,  unless you got lucky hitting a plane at 10,000+ feet with an ar15 or m16.  GOOD LUCK. Again you think everyone in the military is a mindless drone that follows all orders no matter how illegal, sure many are that way but not all and it only takes one in the right place at the right time.

Never in the history of this country has the Military stood against the legislative branch.  And I dont see it happening.  It should of happened in 86'.

So I dont have "faith" anymore that they would step up in a time of need.  It should be the States National Guards communicating with each other and organizing their own protest to anything stupid the government does,  but the National Guard isnt exactly in control of the State's anymore.  Which would make any organized resistance tot he legisliative branch very hard to do.

Quoted: Quoted: The country started going in the  crapper when women got the right to vote. You can debate causality, but you CANNOT debate correlation. I agree, along with non-landowners being allowed to vote by the same act.

Actually, you make an even better point.

People who don't own the  land to pay the taxes, and people too clueless about reality are killing this country. Of the clueless ones, a majority of them are women.

But of women and non-landowners, prolly letting non-landowners vote is worse.

Quoted: Quoted: The reason why?  People didn't have the ability to comminucate the way we do now.  I was in college during the "AWB", and didn't hear a thing about it, even though I had an AR and was a member of the NRA.   With the new communication available, I do believe we will be able to "salvage" America.   YMMV Yep. The internet is the great equalizer.

Ditto I concider the I- net to be the frouth branch of goobermint . The peoples branch . This world wide instant comm. with anyone on a personal level is unreal .

Quoted: Quoted: 1863. May 10th, to be exact. Most women have NO CLUE about what's going on in the world of politics. And most of the one who try to are overwrought with emotion.

Do you even know the significance of May 10th, 1863?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The country started going in the  crapper when women got the right to vote. You can debate causality, but you CANNOT debate correlation. I agree, along with non-landowners being allowed to vote by the same act. Actually, you make an even better point. People who don't own the  land to pay the taxes, and people too clueless about reality are killing this country. Of the clueless ones, a majority of them are women. But of women and non-landowners, prolly letting non-landowners vote is worse.

I think a good alternative for today would be "no pay taxes, no vote".

If we're going to have this damn income tax, we may as well get something for it.

Quoted: Quoted: First of all, some of your facts are just plain wrong. Case in point: " the National Firearms Act was passed into law. It said that all citizens would have to register their arms and register to manufacture them." The part in red is wrong. There are others but I won't belabor the point. Here's a Devil's Advocate question for you: Seeing as how virtually ALL privately-held machine guns in the US have been "registered" now for over 70 years... when is the confiscation going to start? I mean, the NFA has lasted ALMOST as long as the Soviet Union lasted and yet there has NEVER been anything close to a nationwide confiscation of machine-guns. So... does registration REALLY lead to confiscation? Yes you do have to register all of your firearms in one way or the other,  the information trail is in place.

Wrong again.

I have MANY firearms that have absolutely NO "information trail". NOBODY knows what firearms I own except me. Most were obtained through private transactions (some of which went through other private transactions before that too). Those that were obtained from dealers are, as of today, not even necessarily still in my possession.

For nearly all of my firarms, there is no "information trail" for anyone to follow that leads to my door nor to those firearms.

Quoted: It is not the point about confiscation.  It is about the point that when it comes down to you putting up a fight,  you are inaffective.

Read Sun Tzu.

"All warfare is based on deception."

How does the gov't fight an enemy that doesn't exist?

Quoted: I think a good alternative for today would be "no pay taxes, no vote". If we're going to have this damn income tax, we may as well get something for it.

I'll agree and raise ya - one vote for every $1000 paid in income tax.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: 1863. May 10th, to be exact. Most women have NO CLUE about what's going on in the world of politics. And most of the one who try to are overwrought with emotion. Do you even know the significance of May 10th, 1863?

Emancipation Proclamation. I think.

Either that or it was a barbeque.

Quoted: Emancipation Proclamation. I think. Either that or it was a barbeque.

[shakes head]

You ain't no Southern boy.

Quoted: Quoted: Emancipation Proclamation. I think. Either that or it was a barbeque. [shakes head] You ain't no Southern boy.

OK, I looked it up.

What does the death of Stonewall Jackson have to do with America circling the bowl??

Quoted: I dont see that happening.  I dont see people having the balls.  And the Military does not control politics.  Never in the history of this country has the Military stood against the legislative branch.

That is partly true and I agree in part, but the militia is all Americans, active duty that is in Iraq right now have trained with us, and there is a Marine in the picture, just like the battle Athens NC  it can go large scale very fast.

The militia is not a standing army, it is a instructer cadre that deploys when necessary as a force multiplier.

As the nation declines the militia grows.

Quoted: OK, I looked it up. What does the death of Stonewall Jackson have to do with America circling the bowl?

Actually, everything.

The Confederates hadn't lost a significant battle up to that point (Chancellorsville) and they probably wouldn't have lost at Gettysburg if Jackson hadn't been shot in May. If the Confederates had won at Gettysburg, they probably would have won the whole enchalada.

Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today.

Quoted: Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today.

Maybe.

But I tend to place the blame for the death of America on tens of millions of uneducated, un-invested voters, rather than on one lucky shot by a Union soldier.

If we had a loyal patriotic Army,  then they would be on the borders.

Two State's declared a State of Emergency,  and the federal government has done NOTHING.

Heck they didnt even call on their National Guard.  I doubt they even could now that the federal government has taken control of the National Guard.

And the unorganized militia probably doesnt exist in these two States,  nor are they equipped to help.  The drug smugglers have RPG's,  are mostly Mexican Military,  and half of that State supports illegal immigration,  or are illegals to begin with.

And just because our militia is intertwined with the regular Armed Forces doesnt mean all that much.  It is weapons and equipment that is important.  not necessarily manpower.

Quoted: Quoted: Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today. Maybe. But I tend to place the blame for the death of America on tens of millions of uneducated, un-invested voters, rather than on one lucky shot by a Union soldier.

Dude, did you take history in high school or college?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today. Maybe. But I tend to place the blame for the death of America on tens of millions of uneducated, un-invested voters, rather than on one lucky shot by a Union soldier. Dude, did you take history in high school or college?

Yes.

Did they not teach you the damaging effects of tens of millions of uninformed, un-invested voters in your civics classses??

You think that has LESS effect than the  death of Stonewall Jackson?

    Friend I can understand your displeasure with our current situation as citizens of this country. But all other alternatives should be pursued before the first shot ever rings out. I as a citizen, have been brought up with Prayer and the Pledge of Allegiance as a school-age child.  I was totally petrified to learn of the travesty our own Supreme Court had comitted with the imminent domain case. It goes against the very ideals I was taught as a child about what it means to be an American and how much honor went along with that title. I know as a gun owner that things have been made law that are a violation of the Second Amendment of the Bill of Rights, and the intent of our founding fathers.
     Sooner or later something's gonna give. I fear that Mammon has now taken precedence over the citizens of our country. Corporations, Big-Business, Industry, Good-ol' Boys Network, or New World Order,whatever you want to call them, are pulling most of the strings in our capitol. Nafta, Cafta, serve not the common citizen. They're touted to be "Free Trade Agreements". Free for who I ask? People in my town are paying a very hefty price via job losses because of it. We as a nation have strived for a better way of life, only to have it undermined by those who's responsibility it is to serve our best interests as it's citizens. Why? Money. Cheap Labor. We cannot compete with third-world countries and their cheap labor without destroying our own standards of living.
      Sorry for the rant and I'm not trying to hijack your thread. I'm just pissed off too. As a parent of two and a realist, I don't see anything but utter destruction ahead for anyone crazy enough to butt heads with the full force of our own government and it's military. If it came down to it, would you point and fire a weapon at a soldier of your own country's military?

Quoted: Quoted: Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today. Maybe. But I tend to place the blame for the death of America on tens of millions of uneducated, un-invested voters, rather than on one lucky shot by a Union soldier.

replace with "one fuck up by a confederate soldier"

he was killed by friendly fire

Quoted: Yes you do have to register all of your firearms in one way or the other,  the information trail is in place. It is not the point about confiscation.  It is about the point that when it comes down to you putting up a fight,  you are inaffective.

The vast majority of states allow face-to-face transfer of firearms with no paper trail.  If you are concerned about the gov't knowing what you own then buy private sale.  RI requires handguns to get transferred through an FFL but not long rifles.  

As for AR-15's not being adequate, the Afgans didn't acquire the Stinger until 1985-ish.  The experts still debate how much it really enhanced their fighting capability.  They never possessed their own airplanes or helicopter gunships, but they had the will to fight.  Just like the founders of the U.S.A.  

We are better armed than Jews were in the Warsaw Ghetto.  The only way the SS could get them all out was by burning and dynamiting every building to the ground, and gas the sewage tunnels.  

You don't fight your Revolution with the weapons you want but with the weapons you have.

ETA:  The_Macallan already made most of the same points while I was typing this.

Quoted: Quoted: I think a good alternative for today would be "no pay taxes, no vote". If we're going to have this damn income tax, we may as well get something for it. I'll agree and raise ya - one vote for every $1000 paid in income tax.

Please.  Bill Gates, Paula Abdul and Tom Cruise aren't thousands of times more valuable a citizen than I.  Take that elitist talk and throw it out the window.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today. Maybe. But I tend to place the blame for the death of America on tens of millions of uneducated, un-invested voters, rather than on one lucky shot by a Union soldier. Dude, did you take history in high school or college?

Shot by his own men who mistakenly thought he was the enemy.Damn War of Northern Aggression!!


From what I see of the youth of today,we are screwed.The kids I have talked to around here don't know squat of our history.

You want to get your blood pressure up?Go out and ask some high schoolers some history questions.They can tell you all about t.v. and movie people but very few can even guess the right friggin' century for some events-let alone the decade.

Adults aren't much better-I was in the bank the other day and not one person in there-NOT ONE!-knew the correct number of Supreme Court justices.Not just the tellers either-loan officers,managers,etc...

The best chance we have is a total economic collapse.That's the only way I can see change happening.

Better fasten your seatbelts for the 06 and 08 elections!



ETA-I guess I should have taken typing-I'm about 5 posts behind

Quoted: Quoted: First of all, some of your facts are just plain wrong. Case in point: " the National Firearms Act was passed into law. It said that all citizens would have to register their arms and register to manufacture them." The part in red is wrong. There are others but I won't belabor the point. Here's a Devil's Advocate question for you: Seeing as how virtually ALL privately-held machine guns in the US have been "registered" now for over 70 years... when is the confiscation going to start? I mean, the NFA has lasted ALMOST as long as the Soviet Union lasted and yet there has NEVER been anything close to a nationwide confiscation of machine-guns. So... does registration REALLY lead to confiscation? Yes you do have to register all of your firearms in one way or the other,  the information trail is in place. It is not the point about confiscation.  It is about the point that when it comes down to you putting up a fight,  you are inaffective.

maybe there is registration in the socialist hell-hole you live in bud, try moving to a free state.

If the militia is a bad joke in your neighborhood then go have a serious scolding to the guy in the mirror.

The National Militia Standards have been published since 2003, every month for over two years a Joint Training Exercise has taken place with photos After Action Reports and Lesson Learned.

Many states have many cells of instructer cadre, some hold FTX s' open to the public where a recruit can gain experience and work with others.

It is hard work with some risk but thats what it takes to be free.

George Washington The time is now near at hand which must probably determine whether Americans are to be freemen or slaves; whether they are to have any property they can call their own; whether their houses and farms are to be pillaged and destroyed, and themselves consigned to a state of wretchedness from which no human efforts will deliver them. The fate of unborn millions will now depend on God, on the courage and conduct of this army. Our cruel and unrelenting enemy leaves us only the choice of brave resistance, or the most abject submission. We have, therefore, to resolve to conquer or die.

I concur.........slowly the wheel grinds freedom into dust.........Washington, District of Criminals is so appropriate.  The hardest part is understanding politicians who will sell out their childrens futures for a bit of power now.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Jackson dying on May 10th, 1863 allowed the Federal government to become what it is today. Maybe. But I tend to place the blame for the death of America on tens of millions of uneducated, un-invested voters, rather than on one lucky shot by a Union soldier. replace with "one fuck up by a confederate soldier" he was killed by friendly fire

Whatever.

Fact remains, braindead voters are to blame for the journey down the porcelain throne - not an errant shot.

Quoted: <snip> In 1986 when the most unconstitional gun law in history was passed I was 4 years old.  I was an innocent child who was being exploited and there was nothing I could do.  I was too small to fight. I blame each and every US citizen who was 17+ (militia age) in 1986 and did nothing to try and stop this traitorous gun law from being passed. <snip>

I don't know if you really know the history of the '86 ban... no one really saw it coming, it was slipped in as an amendment to the bill on a questionable voice vote minutes before the bill was passed IIRC.   Few in the legistlature, much less the public knew that it was up for vote.

Quoted: Please.  Bill Gates, Paula Abdul and Tom Cruise aren't thousands of times more valuable a citizen than I.  Take that elitist talk and throw it out the window.

Its NOT elitist.

Its the people who pay the bills get to decide how the money is spent.

That's not elitist. You thinking your $276 of annual income tax buying you the right to call the shots is Marxist.