Posted: 5/9/2012 6:50:37 AM EDT
| I was wondering how many of you LEO have used an interactive training system such as MILO/FATS in your departments training. How did you enjoy it? Was it an effective training aid? |
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We had a FATS simulator for awhile and sold it. We went with Simunition training for more realism.
The FATS sim was nice in the sense that it was somewhat interactive and gave feedback. The equipment became the problem as it became unreliable over time. Simunition training is far better, in that, you have the freedom to change your environment and scenario generation is restricted only by what types of areas you could find to train in and the limits of your imagination. MPD165 |
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I fail to see any advantage that using a video based simulator provides over using live scenarios and marking cartridges. No need for "actors", unwieldly protective equipent, etc. Replay of what exactly occurred, no "but I saw", really, let's rewind. Both offer advantages over the other. |
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We have a Milo system, and it has been a huge help. We have it hooked up to our driving simulator so we can build in scenarios where you respond to a call, then end up in a shooting scenario. Want to make it even better? Make a scenario where the BG drops his weapon and runs....our gym is right around the corner and we can have an instructor in RedMan gear ready to tangle.
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I fail to see any advantage that using a video based simulator provides over using live scenarios and marking cartridges. No need for "actors", unwieldly protective equipent, etc. Replay of what exactly occurred, no "but I saw", really, let's rewind. Both offer advantages over the other. We usually use the SWAT guys and some civilian auxillary personel for actors. Video cameras can replay any scenario you wish to review. Protective gear consists of a helmet with face shield. I prefer the SIMS over FATS for a number of reasons. Get use of one of our large parks and a few parol units and have a field day doing traffic stops and the like. Get use of one of the schools or industrial building active shooter traininig. Use of abandoned/borrowed house, domestic,high risk call response, building searches... the list goes on and on. Fats is normally a one room deal. No moving from room to room no patrol units involved and so on. I liked FATs when we had it, Simunition is just more versitile. MPD165 |
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FATS is yesterday.
My point is all you need for FATS/MILO is one room, 1 instructor, 1 student, and the machine. You can train using that system 24/7/365 with miminal support. You can't do that with real actors, safety staff, coaches, etc that marking cartridges need. Both have their place in a well thought out training plan. |
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I fail to see any advantage that using a video based simulator provides over using live scenarios and marking cartridges. MILO allows you to use baton and TASER options in addition to deadly force options. You use simunitons, and you kinda pretty much assume that you will be shooting. MILO scenarios you can't bet on that. Another thing is that Simunitions requires you to use role players. If you have good ones or experienced ones, great. Not all agencies have that large of a pool to choose from. You also have to make sure you have good disciplined role players that will stick to the script and not interject their own elements to their response as a way to maybe mess with the guy going through the scenario. MILO doesn't replace the other forms of training, but they have a lot of benefits to discount systems entirely. I have a small agency that runs MILO for surrounding departments a couple hours away from you if you ever want to see how it works. |
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I was wondering how many of you LEO have used an interactive training system such as MILO/FATS in your departments training. How did you enjoy it? Was it an effective training aid? It was good training but there is nothing better than simunitions. Instantaneous feedback when you take a sim round to the shoulder that you should have checked the corner of the room a bit closer. |
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I've used FATS more in.mil than LEO. They had a portable FATS come through town about a decade ago and the dept rented time on it for the deputies.
It's fine for what it is, but I'd rather invest time and limited funds in sims right now. FATS are good for showing non-LEOs how fast a scenario can unfold and have them put themselves in an officers shoes. edit: I hadn't read the thread when I replied, and I see others are agreeing with me. Every jury member in an OIS case and CRB's should be run through a few FATS scenarios. They'd never do it of course |
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I've used FATS more in.mil than LEO. They had a portable FATS come through town about a decade ago and the dept rented time on it for the deputies. It's fine for what it is, but I'd rather invest time and limited funds in sims right now. FATS are good for showing non-LEOs how fast a scenario can unfold and have them put themselves in an officers shoes. edit: I hadn't read the thread when I replied, and I see others are agreeing with me. Every jury member in an OIS case and CRB's should be run through a few FATS scenarios. They'd never do it of course Actually, i have been told that harris county jurors are given this exact experience before judging any police shooting. |
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I fail to see any advantage that using a video based simulator provides over using live scenarios and marking cartridges. MILO allows you to use baton and TASER options in addition to deadly force options. You use simunitons, and you kinda pretty much assume that you will be shooting. MILO scenarios you can't bet on that. If your sim instructors aren't incorporating no-shoot scenarios and utilizing less lethal tools, they're doing it wrong. Foam batons, deactivated TASERs, and inert OC are all standard issue along with a sim-converted sidearms and sim-converted rifles and LL shotguns in the squad going into any of our scenarios. If you have acces to it for real, you have access to it in the scenario. And we routinely throw in a standard report call in our scenarios just to keep 'em honest. Another thing is that Simunitions requires you to use role players. If you have good ones or experienced ones, great. Not all agencies have that large of a pool to choose from. You also have to make sure you have good disciplined role players that will stick to the script and not interject their own elements to their response as a way to maybe mess with the guy going through the scenario. There are plenty of alternatives available that won't cost a dime. If you have a volunteer FD, check with those guys, they love to help. Check with your local high school. If they have a drama department, they have actors and actresses that would be happy to hone their craft. Spend a little time training them and you'll have plenty of role players available. In my experience (generally speaking of course), cops make the worst role players anyway. They always want to win, which is usually not their job when role playing. MILO doesn't replace the other forms of training, but they have a lot of benefits to discount systems entirely. I have a small agency that runs MILO for surrounding departments a couple hours away from you if you ever want to see how it works. Some responses above Don't get me wrong boss, I've used MILO plenty and I'm not bashing it at all. I just wouldn't spend a dime on it if I were the guy writing checks. There are better options out there but any stress-inoculation training is better than none at all. And in response to whoever above posted that you can replay and review/debrief a MILO scenario as an advantage over sim scenarios...video recording and debriefing a sim scenario is the most important part. We record ours from multiple angles and use them in the debrief. |
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FATS has been bought out by a British company Megget (sp?). They are working on new machines that can do alot.
They have a facility injecting smells, 360 screens, holograhic sound, temperature and air flow changes - so real for some veterans it was dangerous. PTSD episodes and extremely high heart rates. Very interesting results. |
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And in response to whoever above posted that you can replay and review/debrief a MILO scenario as an advantage over sim scenarios...video recording and debriefing a sim scenario is the most important part. We record ours from multiple angles and use them in the debrief. Thats one thing we don't do. Our sims training is a week-long multi-agency event, and some of the participating agencies protested about recording because they viewed it as something that could be used against officers in court, and that if we recorded for eveluation but then erased the video that it would be viewed as destroying an official record. So no recording Lawyers 
It would be great if we could record the sessions because its amazing how some people want to argue about what they did or did not do. |
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And in response to whoever above posted that you can replay and review/debrief a MILO scenario as an advantage over sim scenarios...video recording and debriefing a sim scenario is the most important part. We record ours from multiple angles and use them in the debrief. Thats one thing we don't do. Our sims training is a week-long multi-agency event, and some of the participating agencies protested about recording because they viewed it as something that could be used against officers in court, and that if we recorded for eveluation but then erased the video that it would be viewed as destroying an official record. So no recording Lawyers
It would be great if we could record the sessions because its amazing how some people want to argue about what they did or did not do. You could try arguing it this way...We record them, mistakes and all. We have the student break down their response without seeing the video. If there are inconsistencies between between their recollection and what really happened, we'll show them the video. After we've discussed any mistakes or areas where improvement is needed, we have them re-do that part of the scenario so they actually get to experience how it feels to do it right. The debrief and any remedial repeats are videotaped as well. That way, we provide the instructors and the agency some documentation that the officers were shown how to do it right and they actually did do it right. Structured that way, it's win-win. It's just my opinion, but the video component and the quality debriefing are the most important parts. |
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You could try arguing it this way...We record them, mistakes and all. We have the student break down their response without seeing the video. If there are inconsistencies between between their recollection and what really happened, we'll show them the video. After we've discussed any mistakes or areas where improvement is needed, we have them re-do that part of the scenario so they actually get to experience how it feels to do it right. The debrief and any remedial repeats are videotaped as well. That way, we provide the instructors and the agency some documentation that the officers were shown how to do it right and they actually did do it right. Structured that way, it's win-win. It's just my opinion, but the video component and the quality debriefing are the most important parts. It wasn't my agency that threw the wrench into it. Thats the issue with multiple agencies participating. Couldn't get everyone on the same sheet on that issue. |
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You could try arguing it this way...We record them, mistakes and all. We have the student break down their response without seeing the video. If there are inconsistencies between between their recollection and what really happened, we'll show them the video. After we've discussed any mistakes or areas where improvement is needed, we have them re-do that part of the scenario so they actually get to experience how it feels to do it right. The debrief and any remedial repeats are videotaped as well. That way, we provide the instructors and the agency some documentation that the officers were shown how to do it right and they actually did do it right. Structured that way, it's win-win. It's just my opinion, but the video component and the quality debriefing are the most important parts. It wasn't my agency that threw the wrench into it. Thats the issue with multiple agencies participating. Couldn't get everyone on the same sheet on that issue. That sucks. There are definitely some challenges when collaborating with multiple agencies. It's most frustrating when you address their concerns and they still don't budge, just because. |
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I fail to see any advantage that using a video based simulator provides over using live scenarios and marking cartridges. MILO allows you to use baton and TASER options in addition to deadly force options. You use simunitons, and you kinda pretty much assume that you will be shooting. MILO scenarios you can't bet on that. If your sim instructors aren't incorporating no-shoot scenarios and utilizing less lethal tools, they're doing it wrong. Foam batons, deactivated TASERs, and inert OC are all standard issue along with a sim-converted sidearms and sim-converted rifles and LL shotguns in the squad going into any of our scenarios. If you have acces to it for real, you have access to it in the scenario. And we routinely throw in a standard report call in our scenarios just to keep 'em honest. Another thing is that Simunitions requires you to use role players. If you have good ones or experienced ones, great. Not all agencies have that large of a pool to choose from. You also have to make sure you have good disciplined role players that will stick to the script and not interject their own elements to their response as a way to maybe mess with the guy going through the scenario. There are plenty of alternatives available that won't cost a dime. If you have a volunteer FD, check with those guys, they love to help. Check with your local high school. If they have a drama department, they have actors and actresses that would be happy to hone their craft. Spend a little time training them and you'll have plenty of role players available. In my experience (generally speaking of course), cops make the worst role players anyway. They always want to win, which is usually not their job when role playing. MILO doesn't replace the other forms of training, but they have a lot of benefits to discount systems entirely. I have a small agency that runs MILO for surrounding departments a couple hours away from you if you ever want to see how it works. Some responses above Don't get me wrong boss, I've used MILO plenty and I'm not bashing it at all. I just wouldn't spend a dime on it if I were the guy writing checks. There are better options out there but any stress-inoculation training is better than none at all. And in response to whoever above posted that you can replay and review/debrief a MILO scenario as an advantage over sim scenarios...video recording and debriefing a sim scenario is the most important part. We record ours from multiple angles and use them in the debrief. I guess it all depends on your reources. In my area, it is easier to set up a MILO system for use for an entire days worth of running individual officers through. One officer can run the system for an entire days versus having additional role players who are willing to give up their time for an entire day. It's purely from a logistical standpoint, as there is much less required to organize and setup with a MILO versus roleplayers. You're right, both have their good points and bad points. |