Lets say the enemy has 5 guys and you only have 9 man squad, but your machine guns are keeping there heads down so well you can manuever.  Now by the book can you flank and assault the enemy or do they just have too many people?

or, you could just call in artilliary support and blow them off the face of the earth.

You deploy the 101st Chairbore to solve the crisis.

Quoted: or, you could just call in artilliary support and blow them off the face of the earth.

Yes calling for fire is very fun ( and expensive!)

Quoted: Lets say the enemy has 5 guys and you only have 9 man squad, but your machine guns are keeping there heads down so well you can manuever.  Now by the book can you flank and assault the enemy or do they just have too many people?

how many guys on MGs do you have? Let's say you have 2 guys on MGs laying suppressive fire leaving 7 guys to move and flank them, how you'd do this depends on where they are, territory, etc etc.  I think in some situations it would be possible, in others you'd have to go with the arty strike.

Quoted: Lets say the enemy has 5 guys and you only have 9 man squad, but your machine guns are keeping there heads down so well you can manuever.  Now by the book can you flank and assault the enemy or do they just have too many people?

Um lets see you have a 4 man advatage? they are pinned down.....
Hmmmm um yup I'd say you should be able to flank them and assault thier position.

Every third man has a SAW and immediate access to 2 AT-4s when mounted. (Mounted to the rear of our turret shield. Just his SAW when dismounted. Each team consists of a M4/M9 (Driver) M4/M203/M9 (Team Leader) and SAW(or M240B)/M9 (Gunner). Three or four teams to a squad.

I would say it depends on how good you are.

There is no substitute for training. Or for experience. In most cases battle hardened troops will kick the shit out of newbies anyday.

The main thing you point out though is that you have them down with suppressive MG fire which is a substantial advantage. Once flanked they are screwed.

#1 as an 11b whos served in iraq and (currently in) afghanistan through ambushes and firefights in both I can honestly say it does matter but it's never a perfect world.

if we have our way we will always have 3 to 1 odds but we don't always have it our way. we will fight and try to gain fire superiority to conduct the appropriate battle drill.

if at all possible artillery or close air support will be brought into the fight rather than closing with and destroying the enemy up close and in person because we've done that to and that usually result in atleast on or two of our guys being wounded or killed.

the awnser is mett-t. it all depends on the situation.  keep in mind also that you might think that you have a good idea of the size of the enemy force and try to flank like in you 9 to 5 scenerio and find out that you've just walked into a baited ambush (which are common enemy ttp's in both theatres) to include command detonated ied's.

in iraq it is much more difficult to use air support and artillery assests, but here in afghanistan we like to fix the enemy and destroy them with the most readily available stand off assests to include artillery and cas. and frankly I gives an @#$% how much money rounds and rockets cost. no amount of money can bring back my dead buddies and wounded friends.

as for the make up of and INFANTRY squad (not mp) in varies quite a bit from unit to unit.
but the basic infantry squad of 9 men will have two fire teams with one saw each. the average wpns sqd usually has 2-3 m240b's. but the two 240's are often tasked out to the line squads

so you would have approximately 1-2 automatics that would provide a hasty support by fire and one machine gun with the maneuver element.

if at all possible, get 3 to 1 otherwise you will likely take unneeded casualties.

Quoted: Lets say the enemy has 5 guys and you only have 9 man squad, but your machine guns are keeping there heads down so well you can manuever.  Now by the book can you flank and assault the enemy or do they just have too many people?

Greg, this ratio is used at corps level to wargame certain courses of action, and with the eventual goal to be able to recommend a primary and secondary course of action so the old man can pick one.  At the Corps level we are talking hundreds of troops and weapons systems.  

The 3/1 ratio is completely inapplicable when you are talking about 5/9 or especially if you can obtain overmatch through technology, etc.  I think the first level I would apply it is platoon attacking a MRB, something that would be wargamed on a modified combined arms obstacle overlay.  bottom line, you can kick their ass, I believe in you!  Now move out and draw fire....

With a Gunner and AG for each gun (if the guns are properly placed) you should be able to keep the 5 guys' heads down while your other 5 guys flank them.  

METT-T dependant of course.  Don't get fixated on numbers alone.  If your MGs are used properly you can accomplish A LOT.  

Quoted: Lets say the enemy has 5 guys and you only have 9 man squad, but your machine guns are keeping there heads down so well you can manuever.  Now by the book can you flank and assault the enemy or do they just have too many people?

You shouldn't depend on arfcom for Counterstrike tips. We can't reply in time before the next round.

ah1z, where are you at over here?

Aggressivness (the will to win) makes a difference also.

Quoted: You deploy the 101st Chairbore to solve the crisis.

Was the 67th dissolved and reformed or was another division created?

Quoted: Quoted: You deploy the 101st Chairbore to solve the crisis. Was the 67th dissolved and reformed or was another division created?

Another division................

Ask Alvin York.

Quoted: Quoted: Lets say the enemy has 5 guys and you only have 9 man squad, but your machine guns are keeping there heads down so well you can manuever.  Now by the book can you flank and assault the enemy or do they just have too many people? Greg, this ratio is used at corps level to wargame certain courses of action, and with the eventual goal to be able to recommend a primary and secondary course of action so the old man can pick one.  At the Corps level we are talking hundreds of troops and weapons systems.   The 3/1 ratio is completely inapplicable when you are talking about 5/9 or especially if you can obtain overmatch through technology, etc.  I think the first level I would apply it is platoon attacking a MRB, something that would be wargamed on a modified combined arms obstacle overlay.  bottom line, you can kick their ass, I believe in you!  Now move out and draw fire....

Also understand that the ratio is "combat power" and not numbers.  For example, a USMC rifle company will have a higher "combat power" than a rifle company from bumfuckistan, even if they have the same numbers and even the same equipment.  The difference being: "Marines", leadership, training, support, even nutrition, health, medical care, and field sanitation.  The result is that the Marine company would have a greater combat power.  So the ratio isn't 1:1 when you figure it up.  As you would expect, there's a whole manual on how to do the figuring.

That's how you figure out that an Army Mech Infantry Division, an Army Air Assault Division, an Army Airborne Brigade, and a Marine Corps Divison has more combat power than the entire Iraqi Army.  Combat power is what it's all about, not numbers.  Numbers matter at some point, of course, but combat power is the deciding factor.  The 3/1 or 6/1 ratios, etc. are all about combat power and not raw numbers.

If you're assaulting ninjas, or airsofters, you're going to need more men.....and body bags.

well, generally speaking we're at salerno but in reality we're all over the place.

well, generally speaking we're at salerno but in reality we're all over the place.

I'm with 2/504 PIR

Umm, insurgents are'nt stupid. To them it's hit and run. Unless you have somehow blocked off their escape route they'll be long gone before you have time to flank them. Then again it could be a trap set for YOU!! SAy you are on a patrol in a city with 9 men. First off they are gonna use suprise when opening up salvo's and hope to at least hit someone. Then they will continue firing until your supress then. Most likely when they have to change mags. And the SAW keeps up the pressure. You see a perfect path to flank'em (the insurgents planned this all along). So you lead a team to "cut'em to ribbons". Two things will happen either you will run into a HE booby trap or you will get caught in a cross fire by some other "waiting" insurgents. Best thing to do is stay put and call in something, (mortars, artillary, 40mm's, anything!) also make sure they dont try to FLANK YOU! Problem is the initial advantage will always be with the Gurillias. They have suprise and the choice of terrain and local knowledge. We have better equipment, training. Those guys dont even aim they just pop a AK over the wall and hope it hits something.

Quoted: Quoted: or, you could just call in artilliary support and blow them off the face of the earth. Yes calling for fire is very fun ( and expensive!)

I think the last thing a guy calling for fire worries about is how much the arty rounds cost.

Quoted: You see a perfect path to flank'em (the insurgents planned this all along). So you lead a team to "cut'em to ribbons". Two things will happen either you will run into a HE booby trap or you will get caught in a cross fire by some other "waiting" insurgents.

One of Murphy's Laws of Combat:


The easy way is always mined.

Quoted: Hence the term, "Force Multiplier" This is a literal planning term used.  For example, a battlion equipped with M1A2 SEPs would have a force multiplier applied when attacking a T-72 equipped force.

I always giggle when I think about this concept.


I can just see a couple of Generals and associated staff pukes sitting around a table in a basement, with one of them having a DM shield at his station.


"My M1A2 SEP hits your ogre for 300 hit points!"

"Roll an 8d6 for a saving throw."




What is the AC of an M1A2 SEP anyhow?

Quoted: I always giggle when I think about this concept. I can just see a couple of Generals and associated staff pukes sitting around a table in a basement, with one of them having a DM shield at his station. "My M1A2 SEP hits your ogre for 300 hit points!" "Roll an 8d6 for a saving throw." What is the AC of an M1A2 SEP anyhow?

Lightning bolt!

Quoted: Quoted: or, you could just call in artilliary support and blow them off the face of the earth. Yes calling for fire is very fun ( and expensive!)

A hell of a lot more cost effective than replacing dead people is.

Quoted: Quoted: I always giggle when I think about this concept. I can just see a couple of Generals and associated staff pukes sitting around a table in a basement, with one of them having a DM shield at his station. "My M1A2 SEP hits your ogre for 300 hit points!" "Roll an 8d6 for a saving throw." What is the AC of an M1A2 SEP anyhow? Lightning bolt!

Yeah, it's easier to say that than run around saying, "APFSDS! APFSDS!"

I think the best answer is "METT-T" dependant.

Your scenario basically is a no brainer.  Nine on five, you've already established fire superiority and got their heads down?  If theres no fires available then apply battle drill 1A and call it a day.

Quoted: If you're assaulting ninjas, or airsofters, you're going to need more men.....and body bags.

or a german shepherd.

Quoted: Hence the term, "Force Multiplier" This is a literal planning term used.  For example, a battlion equipped with M1A2 SEPs would have a force multiplier applied when attacking a T-72 equipped force.  The exact numbers aren't important, but the point is you wouldn't need three M1A2 SEPs for each T-72 when on the offensive.  An M1A2 SEP company sliced to an M1A1 battalion would have a force multiplier applied when higher HQ determines what missions that Task Force could accomplish. Artillery support against an enemy without it is a force multiplier.   You could take Bat Boys and apply a force multiplier vs (or compared to) regular infantry. Likewise, a unit that had been in combat and taken maintenance deadlines or casualites would have a force multiplier of less than 1 applied to determine what missions it could achieve. Your example. A US Army Infantry Squad of 9 with possible mortar supprt vs a raghead unit with 2 clips per man of AK-47, no belt fed support, and a couple of RPGs. When training, equipment and logistical multipliers are applied against both forces, you easily exceed the required 3-1. Me, I like to have ten gazillion to one advantage before I attack.  But thats just me.

What are the odds with an entire Brigade (+) of the 4th ID attacking a battallion of third world armor supported only by artillery, ADA and a couple of rotary air attack missions?

Well in the last three HIC rotations at NTC,  over a total of seven battle periods, the 4th ID, the heaviest and most sophisticated division on earth, was defeated 7 consecutive times by an OPFOR less than half as large as normal and manned by National Guard troops.

4th ID Brigade(+)   VS  Nevada National Guard Armor BN(+)  = 0 and 7 for the 4th ID

The odds were much more than 3 - 1.  The odds don't always mean shit.

Quoted: Ask Alvin York.

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