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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:55:03 PM EDT
Not even a joglee thread...
We killed OBL with HK416. USMC is adopting HK416. SAW and DMR are being replaced by HK piston rifles. Now Poland - who is mass producing an ACR clone of their own design - is requesting HK416 for their special forces. Let’s also remember the HK416 clones utilized internationally by military and LE: Sig 516/716 and Caracal 816. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/06/22/polish-special-forces-jednostka-wojskowa-formoza-seek-hk416/ It’s almost as if... piston ARs are a thing. 
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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:56:34 PM EDT
[#1]
Get one then?
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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:57:48 PM EDT
[#2]
Do you own a piston AR?
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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:58:27 PM EDT
[#3]
The HK416 is a good rifle, that's why.
That said, DI ARs are good rifles too, and they perform as well as or outperform most piston ARs. |
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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:58:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Piston ARs are fat and heavy like their wives back home.
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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:59:31 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you own a piston AR? A few. DI ARs as well. ETA - Piston ARs I have owned or currently own: - LWRC M6 IC-A5 - Adams Arms middy 556 - POF P308 (a bunch of them) - PWS MK116/118/216/220 mod1 - Titan TA415 (or something?) - Caracal CAR816 DI make superior Gucci and race rifles, but the heavy/ugly pistons don’t blow shit into my face and dirty my glasses when suppressed. |
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Posted: 6/22/2020 11:59:44 PM EDT
[#6]
Two versions of the same song.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:00:05 AM EDT
[#7]
I've got a LWRC. It does the same job as my DI gun. The piston isn't why operators choose the 416. It's reliable, accurate, and has a well established track record. That is why they keep coming back to it.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:04:00 AM EDT
[#8]
I love my piston LMT AR.
As time goes on however I have a greater appreciation for interchangeability, which all my other AR's have. The LMT is heavy for a 16" gun, but I have it set up with a 1x6, bipod and I use it accordingly. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:06:06 AM EDT
[#9]
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:07:46 AM EDT
[#10]
The USMC has been phasing out the SAW with the IAR for years. This is nothing new. They are thinking about having that be their standard issued service rifle, but nothing set in stone. I wouldn’t call the regular USMC infantry operators and they are not demanding anything. This has been a phased approach going back 10 years or more.
Some special forces get the 416, but even in special forces, you still don’t get to demand what weapons you get. Some units get certain liberties to be able and field weapons that others do not. They still don’t get to demand anything Some other countries can request service rifles, and have weapons sold to them through the bidding and procurement system. Purchasing and fielding new weapons, in both US military and foreign military is a lengthy process with lots of red tape. There is no instant changes or immediate response to any demands. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:08:28 AM EDT
[#11]
Because taxpayers are covering the cost
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:09:58 AM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've got a LWRC. It does the same job as my DI gun. The piston isn't why operators choose the 416. It's reliable, accurate, and has a well established track record. That is why they keep coming back to it. Too bad the same can’t be said of Colt and KAC... |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:10:16 AM EDT
[#13]
I never met anyone that complained about what they got shot with.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:10:52 AM EDT
[#14]
You can't just blanket all piston ARs into one category.
They need to be evaluated as seperate guns. And the HK416 is by all accounts an excellent gun. ETA: three SIG 516 and 716 ARE NOT HK clones. While Robert Hirt was involved in both projects the two are not the same design. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:11:27 AM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because taxpayers are covering the cost |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:11:59 AM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad the same can’t be said of Colt and KAC... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've got a LWRC. It does the same job as my DI gun. The piston isn't why operators choose the 416. It's reliable, accurate, and has a well established track record. That is why they keep coming back to it. Too bad the same can’t be said of Colt and KAC... You’re just trolling at this point. 
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:15:56 AM EDT
[#17]
The specific combo of very short barrels, suppressors, and full auto.
Most users won't gain any benefit at all vs reasonable length (say12.5-20") DI guns |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:16:06 AM EDT
[#18]
My buddy has an LMT piston gun I've shot before. It's nice. The recoil impulse is weird to me. I much prefer the DI set up.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:16:54 AM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The USMC has been phasing out the SAW with the IAR for years. This is nothing new. They are thinking about having that be their standard issued service rifle, but nothing set in stone. I wouldn’t call the regular USMC infantry operators and they are not demanding anything. This has been a phased approach going back 10 years or more. Some special forces get the 416, but even in special forces, you still don’t get to demand what weapons you get. Some units get certain liberties to be able and field weapons that others do not. They still don’t get to demand anything Some other countries can request service rifles, and have weapons sold to them through the bidding and procurement system. Purchasing and fielding new weapons, in both US military and foreign military is a lengthy process with lots of red tape. There is no instant changes or immediate response to any demands. Ok, branches don’t “demand” anything. Maybe they keep getting piston HKs because they’re lighter, more accurate, and less expensive than a Colt/FN.  Or maybe it’s because piston ARs actually are more reliable than DI. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:17:58 AM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad the same can’t be said of Colt and KAC... I have been in plenty of firefights with issued Colt M4 and it did the job just fine. I have no complaints and the people I shot are dead, so they can’t complain. The 416 is a great gun, but assuming you know more than the US military and make the assumption that Colt and FN should be just be all replaced by the 416 doesn’t hold water. The Colt and FN M4 is one of the most proven platforms on earth The IAR is not lighter, more accurate, less expensive or more reliable. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:18:20 AM EDT
[#21]
They don't, government procurement programs do.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:19:22 AM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, branches don’t “demand” anything. Maybe they keep getting piston HKs because they’re lighter, more accurate, and less expensive than a Colt/FN. Or maybe it’s because piston ARs actually are more reliable than DI. Thatsnothowitworks.gif |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:21:01 AM EDT
[#23]
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:21:35 AM EDT
[#24]
iirc, EU countries have to buy from within the EU. are any DI rifles even made in Europe?
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:22:53 AM EDT
[#25]
Poland has been using them for over a decade. They're just getting replacements/more.
The article states their Navy SF group is looking for a new rifle. They'll probably use the HK416 until they GROT is out and proven to be reliable. SF get new rifles every few years so they'll just drop the contract when the time comes. Regular army will subsidize Radom while they get teething problems worked out and get it ready for export. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:25:46 AM EDT
[#26]
because HK/SIG bid on the contracts and others didn't?
because HK/SIG are much better known than KAC, LMT etc? |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:26:42 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted: because HK/SIG are much better known than KAC, LMT etc? Uhhhhhhhhh |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:30:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Because they operate in the water and the HK is good at that without blowing chunks into people's faces/eyes when shit goes wrong? I'm not an operator, but I like goggles for the extra eye protection, and this probably has more to do with safety than anything else. Marines are going back to the water because China, so this is my guess. Water safety.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:30:53 AM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The specific combo of very short barrels, suppressors, and full auto. Most users won't gain any benefit at all vs reasonable length (say12.5-20") DI guns 100% this. The HK416 is great for what it’s designed for. That same application can be achieved with a DI gun, but it’s less consistent than the piston. I wouldn’t invest a lot in what NSW is using, especially their black side elements. They have a specific need to fulfill and a while back, the other systems in the SOCOM resource pool didn’t do it as well. USASOC is getting away from the piston guns and even in their most prevalent days, they weren’t the only thing being used by a whole squadron. A lot of less high profile bad guys have been killed by a wide array of things, that doesn’t make them better. Shit we’ve gotten high value dudes by turning part of a structure into the thing that killed him, that certainly doesn’t make it better than M4 or Mk18 as a primary weapon. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:33:40 AM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Because they operate in the water and the HK is good at that without blowing chunks into people's faces/eyes when shit goes wrong? I'm not an operator, but I like goggles for the extra eye protection, and this probably has more to do with safety than anything else. Marines are going back to the water because China, so this is my guess. Water safety. We have never stopped doing amphibious operations. We have BLTs on MEUs at any given time. The IAR has been a phased approach to replacing the SAW for over a decade. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:34:01 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted: because HK/SIG bid on the contracts and others didn't? because HK/SIG are much better known than KAC, LMT etc? In acquisition circles? Hardly. Sig’s approach is a horror show and I don’t want to get into it here. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:36:56 AM EDT
[#32]
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:38:00 AM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryQuoted: We have never stopped doing amphibious operations. We have BLTs on MEUs at any given time. The IAR has been a phased approach to replacing the SAW for over a decade. +1, this guy gets it. The IAR program has its merits and its drawbacks like anything else. Ultimately the concept is sound. What’s being used by an SMU has very little relevance in broad application or as a general purpose issued weapon. The commercial market seems to be far more interested and really, has the least shared demands of any market as the SMU using that system. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:39:03 AM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted: The HK416 is a good rifle, that's why. That said, DI ARs are good rifles too, and they perform as well as or outperform most piston ARs. Basically this... But the 416 is still an abortion of a design.  Better than a rack M4 since it has a F/A FCG, FF rail, and a heavier barrel. Somewhat better than a MK18 in terms of shorty carbines with suppressors, piston guns are always better for suppressed use unless you get into some high-end or one-off shit. But not better than a Block 2 M4A1; the two are equal at that point. Easier to suppress the 416, but it's heavier, and comes with some disadvantages. Cleaning the piston assembly means removing the handguard, which has a tendency to not RTZ. A Mod 2 SR15 is vastly superior, ditto for the MCX, both of which offer advantages over the M4A1 and 416, respectively. There's a whole lot more than went into the 416's success, its performance isn't why it is where is today. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:40:00 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Don't forget the main reason the HK416/417 is so popular... they look sexy!  https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/495488/unnamed-2_jpg-1473190.JPG little middle eastern kid #1: bro is that an HK? operh8r: you fuckin know it little middle eastern kid #2: fuck yeah, pound it operh8r: yeet |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:40:09 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted: A few. DI ARs as well. ETA - Piston ARs I have owned or currently own: - LWRC M6 IC-A5 - Adams Arms middy 556 - POF P308 (a bunch of them) - PWS MK116/118/216/220 mod1 - Titan TA415 (or something?) - Caracal CAR816 DI make superior Gucci and race rifles, but the heavy/ugly pistons don’t blow shit into my face and dirty my glasses when suppressed. My LWRC got FILTHY suppressed. With a can mounted all that pressure has to go somewhere, when there is no gas tube it travels backwards past the empty case and you end up with carbon all over the action and the fire control parts. I sold that thing. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:40:13 AM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Ok, branches don’t “demand” anything. Maybe they keep getting piston HKs because they’re lighter, more accurate, and less expensive than a Colt/FN. Or maybe it’s because piston ARs actually are more reliable than DI. Well shit, by your logic SIG must be the most reliable brand ever since they're replacing everything now. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:40:23 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Not even a joglee thread... We killed OBL with HK416. USMC is adopting HK416. SAW and DMR are being replaced by HK piston rifles. Now Poland - who is mass producing an ACR clone of their own design - is requesting HK416 for their special forces. Let’s also remember the HK416 clones utilized internationally by military and LE: Sig 516/716 and Caracal 816. https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2020/06/22/polish-special-forces-jednostka-wojskowa-formoza-seek-hk416/ It’s almost as if... piston ARs are a thing. Most of the nine thousand "Operators" generally use M4A1 carbines and the derivative variants. The office of the U.S. Army Special Operations Command (USASOC) historian, however, posits that the term originated from with the Green Beret community. In support of this claim, there is a document from the late 1950s. Dated April 2, 1959, the document’s headline reads: “The Code For the Special Forces Operator.” It includes 10 provisions to which a Green Beret must abide to. They range from the volunteer and highly dangerous nature of Special Forces – during the Cold War, Special Forces Operational Detachment Alphas (SFODAs) were designed to remain behind enemy lines once the Soviet mechanized onslaught had been unleashed on Western Europe; their role, as it is today, was to organize, train, and lead indigenous forces in waging an Unconventional Warfare (UW) campaign against the Communists – to superb physical fitness, soldiership, and professionalism, among other things. “I realize,” the document’s sixth provision states, “it is my responsibility as a Special Forces Operator to undergo more intense and more rugged training than is required of the average soldier of the United States Army.” The document was signed by Captain Albert Clement, 1st Company, 77th Special Forces Group (SFG), and witnessed by John Hanretty. The 77th is one of the original Special Forces Groups and the predecessor of the modern-day 7th SFG. So, there it is. According to the existing historical evidence, it is the Green Berets who have the claim over the term “Operator.” Does a title matter, though? Not to those who operate. 18Z50...Former assistant cook on the SS Casey Ryback. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:43:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Do you own a piston AR? I don't know about him, but, I sure the heck do. And it's a fantastic rifle.  " />
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:43:46 AM EDT
[#40]
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:46:51 AM EDT
[#41]
Because over all else, “Operators” like to look cool.
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:47:32 AM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad the same can't be said of Colt and KAC... |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 12:54:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Too bad the same can’t be said of Colt and KAC... Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: I've got a LWRC. It does the same job as my DI gun. The piston isn't why operators choose the 416. It's reliable, accurate, and has a well established track record. That is why they keep coming back to it. Too bad the same can’t be said of Colt and KAC...  Attached File |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 1:52:32 AM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted: I've got a LWRC. It does the same job as my DI gun. The piston isn't why operators choose the 416. It's reliable, accurate, and has a well established track record. That is why they keep coming back to it. If you think blowing gun powder& combustion heat doesn't factor into reliability & durability, there's a screaming desert bridge deal I've got for you. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 2:03:01 AM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted: 100% this. The HK416 is great for what it’s designed for. That same application can be achieved with a DI gun, but it’s less consistent than the piston. I wouldn’t invest a lot in what NSW is using, especially their black side elements. They have a specific need to fulfill and a while back, the other systems in the SOCOM resource pool didn’t do it as well. USASOC is getting away from the piston guns and even in their most prevalent days, they weren’t the only thing being used by a whole squadron. A lot of less high profile bad guys have been killed by a wide array of things, that doesn’t make them better. Shit we’ve gotten high value dudes by turning part of a structure into the thing that killed him, that certainly doesn’t make it better than M4 or Mk18 as a primary weapon. You airforce, boy? Lol. Either way, the DI system is good enough. It's killed plenty of bad guys and is reliable. Full auto? SF bois go semi anyways. Full auto is out of the picture unless its for suppressive fire which the IAR has replaced the 249 for. Which is fucking stupid. Belt fed will always be better for full auto than a mag fed weapon. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 2:15:34 AM EDT
[#46]
Wasn't the main issue with piston guns that for the very small increase in reliability, you have to deal with a lot of parts wear and breakage?
Military can afford to replace broken major components. I'd prefer not to. It's risk v reward, and the military calculation is different than mine. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 2:20:37 AM EDT
[#47]
because most people are stupid
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Posted: 6/23/2020 2:42:43 AM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted: because most people are stupid Which is by the way, the answer to 87% of all the problems known to man. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 2:52:01 AM EDT
[#49]
better under water and suppressed short.
Why they would be chosen over a constant recoil belt fed for a SAW or long stroke pistol folder for mechanized forces? same reason EOTechs were chosen after they were proven to be shitty.... Training continuity and logistics. |
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Posted: 6/23/2020 2:54:50 AM EDT
[#50]
Cute is the only way to describe this thread.
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