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Posted: 11/12/2017 11:41:18 AM EDT
[#1]
He’s right. Without religion, the only barrier to doing anything(or everything) you want is how long you want your life to last and what you want it to be like. Eternal punishment is a lot harder to face than a few years in prison.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 11:44:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Good religion is a shortcut to rationalism. It's not about displacing one with the other.
Start with a good religious youth, learn rationalism and religious speach becomes more metaphorical. Instead of having some Neanderthal violent caveman youth. "People behave better when they think they are being watched" |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 11:48:40 AM EDT
[#3]
Some atheist told me the same thing while acting the ass one time. I punched him in the nose, so either he's wrong or I'm God.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 11:51:12 AM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Some atheist told me the same thing while acting the ass one time. I punched him in the nose, so either he's wrong or I'm God. It's a way of saying "reality" (but nobody cares about that, so 'God' much more effective) If you do bad 'reality' will punish you.... Makes sense? |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 11:52:40 AM EDT
[#5]
It does not require the restrictions of religion for one to not touch what is mine, or threaten me.
There have been countless instances where, under the edict of their religion, cultures have taken what belongs to others, and then killed them. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:00:12 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Good religion is a shortcut to rationalism. It's not about displacing one with the other. Start with a good religious youth, learn rationalism and religious speach becomes more metaphorical. Instead of having some Neanderthal violent caveman youth. "People behave better when they think they are being watched" |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:06:17 PM EDT
[#7]
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death.
On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:07:45 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Except we reason post hoc. And, rationalism allows us to explain away anything. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Good religion is a shortcut to rationalism. It's not about displacing one with the other. Start with a good religious youth, learn rationalism and religious speach becomes more metaphorical. Instead of having some Neanderthal violent caveman youth. "People behave better when they think they are being watched" Ad hominem fallacy Reverse ad hominem fallacy Baseless fallacy False causation callacy Partial effect fallacy Overrepresentation fallacy Etc... Those are not rational. They are just advanced forms of lying. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:10:04 PM EDT
[#9]
I do not believe that we are magical beings;when we are dead we are dead and don't believe that the force of good compels me to be a decent person nor will I blame evil for shitty things I have done.
The reasons I don't go out raping and killing have absolutely nothing to do with eternal punishment. Satan didn't cause that asshole to shoot up that church and God didn't sit back and allow it to happen either. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:10:15 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Atheists don't get what we mean by "God" It's a way of saying "reality" (but nobody cares about that, so 'God' much more effective) If you do bad 'reality' will punish you.... Makes sense? I get that it seems cheaper to meme people into thinking there's a magic panopticon than actually do the work of building a secure society. But looking at the math - converting to religion increases the probability of criminal recidivism. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:10:46 PM EDT
[#11]
threads like this are why I always return to GD. I never know what someone is gonna bring up. thanks.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:12:05 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I do not believe that we are magical beings;when we are dead we are dead and don't believe that the force of good compels me to be a decent person nor will I blame evil for shitty things I have done. The reasons I don't go out raping and killing has absolutely nothing to do with eternal punishment. Satan didn't cause that asshole to shoot up that church and God didn't sit back and allow it to happen either. But that doesn't work on everyone, most devolve into cavemen. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:12:44 PM EDT
[#13]
Do not attribute to God the depravities of man.
Man has done horrible things to his fellow man. Sometimes, these things are so horrible, the leaders feel the need to invoke the name of God in a vain attempt to justify their actions. Do not be fooled. These are the acts of men. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:14:38 PM EDT
[#14]
Good read. Thanks for sharing OP.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:15:15 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Why not say physics, economics, or anthropology instead of magic sky man? Are you incapable of handling numbers without an anthropomorphic narrative? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Atheists don't get what we mean by "God" It's a way of saying "reality" (but nobody cares about that, so 'God' much more effective) If you do bad 'reality' will punish you.... Makes sense? I'm speaking a language everyone can understand. Rational and irrational alike. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:15:21 PM EDT
[#16]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? 
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:17:42 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Atheists don't get what we mean by "God" It's a way of saying "reality" (but nobody cares about that, so 'God' much more effective) If you do bad 'reality' will punish you.... Makes sense? |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:18:37 PM EDT
[#18]
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Cuz your honest and honorable. Making society a better place in the long run. But that doesn't work on everyone, most devolve into cavemen. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:19:14 PM EDT
[#19]
So OP, I assume that if it were proven tomorrow that God doesn’t exist, you’d run right out and start stealing, murdering, and raping, right?
That seems to be what you’re implying. The only reason people act moral is the fear of punishment. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:20:20 PM EDT
[#20]
Dostoyevsky had a crazy life. Did a paper on him in college. Can't imagine what that would be like attending your own execution facing a rifle squad only to be pulled at the last second and spared. Was an interesting man in interesting times in a crazy part of the world.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:21:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? It's the safety/security being traded for rights argument, in a different guise. They are actually purporting that people should be made to worship god, even if they don't believe god exists, because they believe it will better control other's behavior than allowing individuals to make choices based upon their own moral compass. Religion is about control of the masses via fear and brainwashing.......if it is used this way. And that's exactly what people who purport to use the religion = moral argument are attempting to do. Justify brainwashing and fear creation in order to exact control. At the end of the day, I guess it's easier/cheaper to make someone fear disobedience than it is to teach them the mechanics of making decisions in a logical and ethical way and trust them to go forth and not do bad things. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:23:35 PM EDT
[#22]
Yes, I'm not religious, and you're right, you religious guys don't know how liberating it is, as I do all the raping and murdering I want to do. That amount happens to be zero. Now if I had a god commanding me to rape and murder people at a rate I'm not comfortable with (that rate being zero), I wouldn't like it.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:25:33 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
No, if you do bad, other humans might punish you. That's the only reality that anyone can prove actually exists. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Atheists don't get what we mean by "God" It's a way of saying "reality" (but nobody cares about that, so 'God' much more effective) If you do bad 'reality' will punish you.... Makes sense? If you act destructively you could make yourself miserable. Suppose a guy is abusive to his wife, even if he never gets punished by someone else he will be miserable and the chemicals in his brain will be off. Or if your lazy crops won't grow etc... |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:25:36 PM EDT
[#24]
My salvation has nothing to do with fear of what happens after I die; I do not live in fear or anxiety. Jesus’s death on the cross spares me from Gods judgement. Death is 100% guaranteed and we all will face God after it happens. I look forward anxiously to my death (no, I am not trying to accelerate it).
Happy Sabbath day to all. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:26:38 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Start with a good religious youth, learn rationalism and religious speach becomes more metaphorical.  Attached File |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:27:47 PM EDT
[#26]
Ahhh, no.
Self restraint exists. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:28:13 PM EDT
[#27]
I live by Bill and Ted
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:28:29 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
....or for the one it does work on it only works until the right motivational buttons are pushed. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Cuz your honest and honorable. Making society a better place in the long run. But that doesn't work on everyone, most devolve into cavemen.  :
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:29:19 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because people are often irrational and aren't persuaded by physics, economics etc... I'm speaking a language everyone can understand. Rational and irrational alike. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:29:24 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? I'm not religious, yet I'll put my life's actions against any who are without hesitation. My son had a very religious friend who was all the time preaching about hell and punishment if you're bad. At age about 8, he asked me basically the same thing. "Dad, wouldn't it be better to do what's right because it's right than cause you're afraid of punishment". One of those moments I knew I was on the right track. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:31:37 PM EDT
[#31]
 Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:32:28 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's not about being "more moral." It's the safety/security being traded for rights argument, in a different guise. They are actually purporting that people should be made to worship god, even if they don't believe god exists, because they believe it will better control other's behavior than allowing individuals to make choices based upon their own moral compass. Religion is about control of the masses via fear and brainwashing.......if it is used this way. And that's exactly what people who purport to use the religion = moral argument are attempting to do. Justify brainwashing and fear creation in order to exact control. At the end of the day, I guess it's easier/cheaper to make someone fear disobedience than it is to teach them the mechanics of making decisions in a logical and ethical way and trust them to go forth and not do bad things. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? It's the safety/security being traded for rights argument, in a different guise. They are actually purporting that people should be made to worship god, even if they don't believe god exists, because they believe it will better control other's behavior than allowing individuals to make choices based upon their own moral compass. Religion is about control of the masses via fear and brainwashing.......if it is used this way. And that's exactly what people who purport to use the religion = moral argument are attempting to do. Justify brainwashing and fear creation in order to exact control. At the end of the day, I guess it's easier/cheaper to make someone fear disobedience than it is to teach them the mechanics of making decisions in a logical and ethical way and trust them to go forth and not do bad things. What a sad condition. Made even more sad because there is a sub set who are willing to be civil, kind, and considerate of their fellow human, showing that it can be done. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:33:49 PM EDT
[#33]
It's funny how the different gods have different morals....
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:37:44 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
If you're trying to convince the rational, why shred your credibility first thing by claiming magic is real? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Because people are often irrational and aren't persuaded by physics, economics etc... I'm speaking a language everyone can understand. Rational and irrational alike. Tell a rationalist that God will punish him for theft and he won't mind. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:38:56 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:39:16 PM EDT
[#36]
Everyone acts in their own self interest.
People who have a short term view on everything are perceived as immoral. People who have long term view on everything are perceived as moral. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:40:37 PM EDT
[#37]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Because if he's a rationalist he would understand the positive objectivite outcome of what I'm saying. Tell a rationalist that God will punish him for theft and he won't mind. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:42:36 PM EDT
[#38]
I wish I had something brilliant to add to this thread. But, people who have nothing, will do almost anything, to get something. And that something may be a result of harming others. There needs to be a consequence, either in this world or the next. To give them a moment of pause before crossing that line. Do God's, Governments, or people decide what that line is? God hasn't exactly shown himself lately. Governments are corrupt. That leaves us, We the People.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:43:32 PM EDT
[#39]
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:43:56 PM EDT
[#40]
Alrighty then. dicks out.
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:44:48 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
He’s right. Without religion, the only barrier to doing anything(or everything) you want is how long you want your life to last and what you want it to be like. Eternal punishment is a lot harder to face than a few years in prison. Makes it a sin(crime) that even if you live a good and moral life and treat everyone well but makes the mistake of not believing in god you are going to hell (he already knew this) So 80 years on earth living a good life as an agnostic or atheist who's only crime is not believing in god gets to suffer for >999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999,999+ eternal years in hell (totally fair for punishment fitting the crime) Yeah that's a sign of an "all loving" god that only wants us to believe based on faith rather than proof. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:46:51 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? After all, the Stalinists thought they were doing what was right and better for them and everybody around them. See, everybody playing the game you're playing assumes that the former morality of Western European civilization is the only true standard there is for unknown reasons, and that people will naturally gravitate towards that. Which is demonstrably false. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:49:09 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
My salvation has nothing to do with fear of what happens after I die; I do not live in fear or anxiety. Jesus’s death on the cross spares me from Gods judgement. Death is 100% guaranteed and we all will face God after it happens. I look forward anxiously to my death (no, I am not trying to accelerate it). Happy Sabbath day to all.  Failed To Load Title |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:51:42 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:51:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So, on one side we have people who only behave for fear of punishment after death. On the other we have people who behave because it's the right and better thing to do for themselves, and everyone around them. Who is more moral? I think that is the gist of the argument when people say like he does. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:54:50 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You laugh? I'm not religious, yet I'll put my life's actions against any who are without hesitation. My son had a very religious friend who was all the time preaching about hell and punishment if you're bad. At age about 8, he asked me basically the same thing. "Dad, wouldn't it be better to do what's right because it's right than cause you're afraid of punishment". One of those moments I knew I was on the right track. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:55:25 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
It's funny how the different gods have different morals.... |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:57:41 PM EDT
[#48]
Paid my respects at his grave
One of the greatest literary agents of Truth |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:57:42 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I think people like Dostoevsky would say "where does your moral code come from?". I think that is the gist of the argument when people say like he does. |
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Posted: 11/12/2017 12:58:16 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I treat people like I want to be treated. I got that from my mother, not from on high. |
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