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Posted: 4/6/2002 4:25:30 AM EDT
Late Feb. of this year I was working for a contractor at an oil refinery in Anacortes Washington. I live 45 miles from my place of employment in a rural area. I have a carry permit and always carry my G19 in my car when and wherever I go. I had been at this refinery for about 4 weeks working day shift. One day the boss walks up and says "come with me". "Whats wrong?" i say. "Have to bring you to see Mr. Big" [top manager of refinery] I was brought in a room that had within it my foreman, mr. big, many security people, must have been 6 in all. I was informed that within their security rights a dog was brought in the parking lot to sniff vehicles and it "reacted" to mine. "What" i say. And what does dog sniff for? Dog sniffs for drugs and alcohol. "I have no drugs or alcohol in my vehicle and will submit to wizz quiz right now if you wish" I say. Well the dog reacted to your vehicle. What else does dog sniff for, says i. "Firearms, explosives". "Oh. says I, " I have a Glock model 19 under the seat of my car." I say proudly. I also have a permit issued by the state of Washington to carry a gun." "May we search your vehicle" Da man says. " Ofcourse, lets go" Me says. Out to parking lot we go, all of us. I unlock car let the fatass 70 year old "security" guard rummage through my car. He also spots my K-Bar Fighting Knife next to my 4D cell mag lite. Tells me "this is illeagal too". Needless to say, the contractor I was working for fired me on the spot. I immeadiately called him on the phone when I got home and apologized to him and said I hope i didnt tarnish his image with the refinery. [didnt want to get everybody fired] He said he really had no choice at the time. But it wouldnt preclude me from working for him again. [cool] Fast forward to yesterday. Contractor calls me up for more work at different refinery, [thats cool, closer anyway]. Talked to BA at union hall and he told me he talked to Anacortes refinery and that I was banished forever, reguardless who i'm working for. I never argued with the refinery security or management about their rules. One of which was "no firearms on refinery property". I broke the rule. I paid the price. But it still pisses me off. After all it is legal under the 2nd. Sorry for the long read. rainman
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:33:16 AM EDT
No, [b]rainman[/b], your story was a very interesting read! So what does it mean that BA told you that you wouldn't be working for [u]any[/u] refinery? Does that mean any refinery operated by your old company? or any refinery at all in the area? God, I hate lawyers - they probably told your old company, as they tell every company, that unless you make sweeps with canine units, you may be sued (by other lawyers) in the event that anything bad happens! Eric The(Lawyer,AlbeitNotOneOfThose..)Hun[>]:)]
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:35:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:37:58 AM EDT
I think the moral of the story is to "just say no" to searches. I has a store security guy ask once if he could look in my bags. I agreed, and there was nothing there, but it was a humiliating experience to be treated like a shoplifter in front of some friends, and I've never allowed things of that nature since. At the entrance to a recent concert, I was asked to open my coat for a search. I used my standard line: "I'm not trying to be a jerk, but no, I won't be treated that way."
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:39:23 AM EDT
So, I guess the refinery would have gone ape shit when they saw my 50 cal. In my trunk... [;)] screw them basturds... their gonna wish they had some loyal gun owning workers there if ragheads ever infiltrate.... Sorry to hear about your loss Rainman....
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:40:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 4:41:39 AM EDT by Hawkeye1]
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:43:35 AM EDT
Good morning Eric. The contractor I work for is a scaffold builder. According to the Business Agent of my local, I would not be allowed ever to work at that refinery again. Haven't broken the rules at any other refinery. So, i guess i'm good to go at the others in this area. Then again the reason I was able to GET a carry permit is because i never broke the rules growing up. Go figure.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 5:24:35 AM EDT
It is foolish to ever: 1) volunteer for a piss test. They can always alter the results. After all, you have NO legal recourse. 2)Ever volunteer information to anyone. Its NOYFB.Even if you're getting busted keep your mouth shut and talk to an attorney-even if it means spending a night in jail. 3)EVER, EVER voluntarily submit to any search, anywhere, anytime. You have just relinquished your rights and nothing good can possibly come from it.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 6:15:23 AM EDT
That sucks!...I have to worry at my job too....but I would`nt let the cornholers search my vehicle without a big hassle.....and as hawkeye suggests....I would then get a lawyer....they don`t seem to do very good in court.....for they would no-dout throw my butt in jail.....even with legal carry......still...I know of two or three with hardware in thier vehicle in the same lot...[:)]
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 10:05:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By drjarhead: It is foolish to ever: 1) volunteer for a piss test. They can always alter the results. After all, you have NO legal recourse. 2)Ever volunteer information to anyone. Its NOYFB.Even if you're getting busted keep your mouth shut and talk to an attorney-even if it means spending a night in jail. 3)EVER, EVER voluntarily submit to any search, anywhere, anytime. You have just relinquished your rights and nothing good can possibly come from it.
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I would add, if at work never sign anything if they write you up about an incident.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 10:14:40 AM EDT
Have someone go back and sprinkle smokeless powder around the entire parking lot. The dogs will go nuts. Hell, pour some cheep beer around too.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 10:21:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 11:43:03 AM EDT by A2cat-man]
Where was your shop steward during the interragation from management? Were you aware of the "no guns on company property" rule? And is it a condition of dismissal for a first offense? Why no warning and maybe a letter of reprimand first? Maybe even a couple of days off without pay? It just seems to me that immediate dismissal is pretty harsh for one offense, unless that is company policy. I may be jumping the gun, no pun intended, but I think a good attorney would be my next stop.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 10:25:39 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/6/2002 10:27:32 AM EDT by Avtomat]
Originally Posted By Hawkeye1: Sorry, just me, but I would bust my butt finding a lawyer and sue the pants off of someone. Maybe its different there, but here, you car is considered the same as your home. NO ONE can search it without a court issued search warrant or your permission. Exception being on govmt property like a military base. You cannot be told what you can and cant have in the vehicle UNLESS the property you are on takes liability in the case of theft, fire, or whatever. Most places have those nice little signs/clauses, they are not responsible for your car or the contents thereof in case of fire or theft, etc. They are depriving you of a means of self protection to and from work by saying you cant have your weapon in your car. Not to mention that you have a state issued carry license. I would be more than ticked. There is a lawyer somewhere who could take this and run. I know they would here. I was in a similar situation once, and when I said fine, I'll call my lawyer and you can talk to him, the subject was dropped immediately. Things like this just send me into freakin orbit.
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what the heck would he sue for? its their property, and if they want to search cars, they can, and if you don't want them to, they'll just kick you out. rainman consented to the search (no doubt he would be similarly banished if he didn't); I doubt his employer would have appreciated him raising a stink: he probably wouldn't have been called back if he had.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 11:59:45 AM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:01:00 PM EDT
That's a bummer rainman and I'm sorry to hear it, but.... DON'T EVER, EVER VOLUNTARILY SUBMIT TO A SEARCH OF YOUR PERSON, POSSESSIONS, AUTOMOBILE, OR HOME FOR ANYONE!!! [:(!] And no, my caps lock button is not stuck, I did it that way purposely.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:15:38 PM EDT
My main concern would be to find out if your siuation placed your name on a security risk data base somewhere, which might preclude/blackball you from working for other companies also, not just that one.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:29:38 PM EDT
The Company I work for has a small chemical operation a few miles to the East from the Anacortes refineries---just wondering---was it Tesoro or Equilon?
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 12:50:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Hawkeye1: Sue for unnecessary endangerment, loss of income, and GOd know what else an attorney can comeup with. People file suits for a lot crazier crap every day and win.
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That does not mean rainman has a legal right to recover. There is no "unnecessary endangerment" cause of action. Furthermore, "other people do it" is not a very good reason; frivilous lawsuits are frivolous.
NO, private industry can NOT just search your car if they want to. If that were the case, the police would never need search warrants. They would just have the owner of whatever property the vehicle was parked on search it.
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A private property owner CAN exclude you from its property if it wants to. And if it wants to search your vehicle before before you are let into the gate, it has the right to do so. No warrant is needed, as the fourth amendment restricts government action, not that of private parties. Furthermore, when a private party does a search, seizes an item, and turns it over to the police, the exclusionary rule would still apply; therefore, police cannot have private parties search without warrants and then use the evidence. However, the situation at hand does not involve a private party seizing evidence on behalf of the police. EVEN IF IT DID, rainman consented to the search.
He is licensed to carry when he is away from work, so by them saying he cant have it in his car, his only choice is to leave it at home. This takes away his ability to defend himself to and from work. Is his employer willing to take responsibility for his safety going to and from work and any other stops he needs to make?
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Unless the employer has somehow undertaken a duty to protect the employee, it is not responsible for the intervening acts of third parties (crooks). The criminal is the one who is responsible.
The first time I had that conversation with an employer they said NO, of course they wont, its not their responsibility. I said exactly. Its mine, and you cant/wont deprive me of that ability.
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But it is THEIR property, and you don't have to work there.
What I have on my person while at work, they might have a bit more room to say something about, but my vehicle is MY space. Its the same as someone trying to tell me what I can and cant have in my home.
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But your home isn't parked on THEIR property.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 1:00:28 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 1:39:50 PM EDT
Hawkeye1, I will feel free to step in on your side. NO we should NOT just roll over because we happen to be parked on someone elses property. Like you said, if it is in your car that's one thing, if it's on your person that's another. I have seen a co-worker fired because of having a firearm on him during working hours (it was spotted and reported by a client),and that is totally understandable. However, if a person has things in their car (their own private/personal space), it is their business and NO ONE elses unless they grant that person permission.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 1:50:34 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 2:02:57 PM EDT
rainman, Did your shop steward need to be informed or present? If so this might be your best chance of changing this outcome. Good luck.
Link Posted: 4/6/2002 4:46:55 PM EDT
Sure wouldn't hurt to at least talk to an attorney who specializes in employment law. I think your best chance is a challenge regarding their smearing you to the other refinery.
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