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Posted: 10/6/2004 1:32:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 1:32:58 PM EST by Hawkeye]
Believe me, there is nothing that I want more than to believe that this AWB will never happen again. I am on the same side as all of you. However, I think that its unfair to flame someone for thinking that there will eventually be another one. I hate to say it, but that is what I believe. Its just a matter of time. Whether we see it or not, or believe it or not, the world (key word being WORLD) is becoming more liberal, day by day. Our numbers are not growing but reducing. Just take a look at the history of gun ownership here in America and look at what we have lost. It may be slow, and the anti's make only take a bite at a time, but it sure as hell adds up over the years. Sure you can call me an idiot or paranoid, but I just think that its the natural way the world and our country is going. I pray to God that it will never happen, but slowly we see country after country giving in to this anti gun sentiment. And no I do not think its stupidity to think that the next ban will be based on what the first one was, and then some. Am I the only one here who has actually read what the revised one was going to be? It was almost identical to the previous one with even more restrictions and a NO SUNSET clause added in there. Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated on this topic. Sorry if its a bit off topic but I think this will get better response in here, than in General Discussion.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:25:11 AM EST
My flames come from the fact that people keep asking stupid questions like, "Should I keep my pre94 lower in case there is a new ban?", among other stupid questions. First you are assuming that there will be a grandfather clause and a transfer clause, both of which would be on the table should the "next ban" occur, so planning on investment items for the "next ban" is an exercise in futility.

Plan for your "next ban". Build whatever you want, packrat how many receivers you can afford to. Buy mags until you can't get in your house anymore. A simple stroke of a pen from simple minded politicians could erase every cent of your "investment" and other than civil disobedience, you won't be able to do a damn thing about it. Your plans are, AT BEST, a shot in the dark.

I get the distinct impression from some of these people that they have alot of money invested in their pre94 weapons and a small part of them wishes a ban would come back so that they could attempt to recoup some of their "investment".
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:26:11 AM EST
I don't know about everyone else, but I don't think that flaming people is necessary. I do think it is probable that we will see one again in the future.

I think the point that a lot of people are trying to make however is that the ban could have an infinite amount of variation of what it will do. Unless we see one come out of committee, it is sort of pointless to get worked up about it. Build/buy what you want now according to what is legal and worry about a ban when it does start to become concrete. Don't limit yourselves or get worked up about something that doesn't exist yet.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:37:19 AM EST
I completely agree with what you guys are saying. I know that a Grandfather clause will have to be put in place which is good. I also agree that there is probably a bit of whining going on from people who spent high dollars on pre-ban stuff and now have lost thier asses on thier investments.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:57:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 8:00:42 AM EST by _DR]
I lost money on my "preban", but I'm not bitter since now all my ARs can be "no-bans". I just am not interesting in selling anything for less than what I paid for it, I am happy to hang on to my "preban" as a reminder of the pleasure I had in owning it when the ban was in force. Plus the fact that it is a great rifle.

I can understand why some are irritated when the prospect of a new ban is posted, especially since no one can predict if, when, how or what it might be if it did occur. It will be interesting, though, to see what tactic the anti-gun legislators will attempt next year.

It is very unlikely they will just give up and go home.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:03:24 AM EST
The AWB will be coming back. To bad, but for now we, meaning those of us that are married, must convince our Wives to let us spend lots of money on new toys.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:04:38 AM EST
U.S. Constitution, Amendment V(in part):
"...; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

= grandfather clause
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:10:47 AM EST
If you want to invest, invest in coins, stamps, whatever.

But think of firearms are "Freedom Insurance".

A "grandfather clause" in any type of law, zoning, licensing, whatever, is for the purpose of quelling desention. If a new law had to apply to everyone, many would not pass.

The purpose of grandfather clauses is a long term goal. It is designed to gain support from present business, people, etc, that would otherwise be affected. This gives an aura of legitimacy, since, after all, the current people doing this support it.

It keeps newcomers out of the field. This cuts down on competition for existing businesses, and in the case of guns, increases value (a nebulous thing) of their "prebans". But those could just as easily be outlawed tomorrow by the next vote on your rights.

Grandfathering uses the divide and conquer method. It divides resistance against the measure. They have already divided gun owners into "hunters" and "evil assault weapon wielding criminals" (us). Then they divide the remaining group even more, pre and post owners. Only future laws may have no "post bans".

Grandfathering uses attrition to reduce numbers over time, until there is little if any resistance to "the next step". When there are few enough to resist, then they ban all, whether business, land use, you name it.

This is how this technique has always been used.

Do NOT allow "Grandfather Clauses" to be attached. It is a tool to pass a ban. Remember, the '94 Clinton Gun Ban could NEVER have been passed without a grandfather clause.

And it could not have been passed without the "Sunset Clause". Do not allow this to be attached.

Force the antis into an all or nothing position. And if it then passes... well, after the first one, the rest are free, as they say. No, that is too much for them to comptemplate. They must know that if they want our guns, it will not be done piecemeal, it must be Molon Labe.

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:21:04 AM EST
I don't understand the bashing either. A few things are certain. There WILL EVENTUALLY BE A NEW BAN of some sorts, and it may come very soon if Kerry gets elected which looks like a real possibility, so you guys better get your asses out there and vote BUSH. Secondly, when a new ban is inplemented, you better have proof that you have "built" rifles and not stripped lowers. It's pretty safe to assume that will be a clause, and it's better to be safe than sorry. A notorized and dated picture of the Build costs a whole whopping 5 bucks and MAY go a long way in proving your case. Keeping receipts will help also. Nato wants our guns, the Dems want our guns, and a bazillion other orgs want our guns. To think that there will never be another ban is downright moronic. Eventually, it will happen, the best we can hope for is to postpone it as long as possible. My advice is to document everything, as it can't hurt you and very well may help you. I'd also suggest buying a nice watertight gun case in case you have to bury your prized possesions in the back yard some day. Remember though, there will be some time between when the eventual new ban is passed and when it's signed into law and becomes effective. My plan of action is to have as many bases covered as posssible so i have less loose ends to tie up in that short period. The rest of you can do what you want and flame all you want, but don't blame me when you're left out in the cold like last time. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Isn't that the mentality of 99% of the members on this forum? Kind of odd how that same 99% try to completely avoid that line of thinking when it comes to future legislation which is way more plausible than the next SHTF or life threatening situation thats talked about nearly everyday. Stockpiling ammo and mags is great but preparing for likely future legislation is taboo? I just don't get it.

Boils down to this basically, and it's really all one can do regardless of what comes out. Vote republican, join the NRA, and documentation. Won't cost ya hardly anything, and all will go a long way in the future. For all the little details, you'll have to wait and see what comes along, and you'll have time to tie up loose ends then.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:39:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:
I don't understand the bashing either. A few things are certain. There WILL EVENTUALLY BE A NEW BAN of some sorts, and it may come very soon if Kerry gets elected which looks like a real possibility, so you guys better get your asses out there and vote BUSH. Secondly, when a new ban is inplemented, you better have proof that you have "built" rifles and not stripped lowers. It's pretty safe to assume that will be a clause, and it's better to be safe than sorry. A notorized and dated picture of the Build costs a whole whopping 5 bucks and MAY go a long way in proving your case. Keeping receipts will help also. Nato wants our guns, the Dems want our guns, and a bazillion other orgs want our guns. To think that there will never be another ban is downright moronic. Eventually, it will happen, the best we can hope for is to postpone it as long as possible. My advice is to document everything, as it can't hurt you and very well may help you. I'd also suggest buying a nice watertight gun case in case you have to bury your prized possesions in the back yard some day. Remember though, there will be some time between when the eventual new ban is passed and when it's signed into law and becomes effective. My plan of action is to have as many bases covered as posssible so i have less loose ends to tie up in that short period. The rest of you can do what you want and flame all you want, but don't blame me when you're left out in the cold like last time. Prepare for the worst and hope for the best. Isn't that the mentality of 99% of the members on this forum? Kind of odd how that same 99% try to completely avoid that line of thinking when it comes to future legislation which is way more plausible than the next SHTF or life threatening situation thats talked about nearly everyday. Stockpiling ammo and mags is great but preparing for likely future legislation is taboo? I just don't get it.

Boils down to this basically, and it's really all one can do regardless of what comes out. Vote republican, join the NRA, and documentation. Won't cost ya hardly anything, and all will go a long way in the future. For all the little details, you'll have to wait and see what comes along, and you'll have time to tie up loose ends then.



I understand what you are saying, however voting Bush does not guarantee us anything. After all he said he would resign a new ban.... Some say he just said this as a political way of dodging the issue, because everyone knew that he wouldnt push for a new one, but I think its all crap.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 7:45:25 AM EST
That's what happens whey you by anything as an "investment". Times can change, and you all of a sudden lose alot of value. Happens in many things, coins, art, metals, etc.

I for one, shoot every gun I have, and don't consider them an investment, unless you count them as an investment in future liberty. If the value goes way up, I might sell one or two, but I'd have to be desperate. I've just about never made money selling any of my guns.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 8:49:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 8:50:31 AM EST by Ridley]
Well buddy, your choice is Bush or Kerry this go around. Bush didn't push for the AWB, and Kerry authored a bill to ban all semi's with a GRIP, so IMO it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who to vote for. Bush let the AWB expire, so quit busting his balls, it just makes you look like a paranoid pussy. The choice is clear, get off the crack pipe
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:03:51 AM EST
just go out and get ARs!!!!!!!!!!
NOW!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

i also think that another AWB will show up

just to be on the safe side, i'll get more ARs

MORE FOR ME!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:08:05 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:12:10 AM EST
I can see the point in writing to my Senator and Congressman, but its not really necessary since they opposed a new ban. However writing to other Senators and Congressmen doesnt do shit.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:13:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:
Well buddy, your choice is Bush or Kerry this go around. Bush didn't push for the AWB, and Kerry authored a bill to ban all semi's with a GRIP, so IMO it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out who to vote for. Bush let the AWB expire, so quit busting his balls, it just makes you look like a paranoid pussy. The choice is clear, get off the crack pipe



This is the exact crap that I resent. Crack pipe? Who the fuck are you to say something like that? Do you know me? What an assbag.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:28:13 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:30:44 AM EST by Grunteled]
I have to ask... what is the point of the 'bury them in the yard' stuff? If you are going to roll over and pretend you don't have them when the collection squad comes what is the point? You won't be using them, practicing with them, selling them, and you won't even be able to safely travel with them. You just let them take your rights away, and hid your possesions in the dirt. What is the use of a buried gun? What WILL you fight for when push comes to shove?

If another ban gets passed it won't involve confiscation, more likely a CA like bill with grace registration period / no transfer. Fact is that if it goes through, 99.999% of us will fill out the paper work and bitch. I've never seen it go down any other way and I hold little hope it would in this case. Many gun owners have that line in the sand drawn at confiscation and the .gov knows it. However, we always accept and conform to paperwork requirements, and subsiquent arrest of paperwork felons without getting all upity. They know that and they will use it. Think about it. In a generation in CA there will be no legally owned AR15s right? They can't transfer them to anyone other than a dealer or the state. All without a fight.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:29:06 AM EST

Originally Posted By SHIVAN:
Knock, knock........anyone home???

"We the people....."

Silly assertions that there might be another ban is based on those of you too lazy to get off your ass and write every last Congressman and Senator you can......then writing and calling the White House for good measure.

The folks asking if there is going to be another ban are OBVIOUSLY leaving THEIR future in the hands of others. Start taking some ownership GUN OWNERS......




+1
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:36:58 AM EST

Knock, knock........anyone home???

"We the people....."

Silly assertions that there might be another ban is based on those of you too lazy to get off your ass and write every last Congressman and Senator you can......then writing and calling the White House for good measure.

The folks asking if there is going to be another ban are OBVIOUSLY leaving THEIR future in the hands of others. Start taking some ownership GUN OWNERS......



Do you really think that writing Kerry if he gets elected will change his agenda on guns? Seriously, theres a very real limit to what letters will do for these misguided people. Think 25 million letters to feinstein will keep her from introducing more GC bills? uhhhh.....NO


This is the exact crap that I resent. Crack pipe? Who the fuck are you to say something like that? Do you know me? What an assbag.


I couldn't care less if you resent it whatsoever. To even insinuate in the least that there is a viable alternative to Bush in these elections shows who the real uneducated assbag is. You are what you say on here, and if you make a dumb statement, I'll rip your ass whether it's on a forum or in person. Get over it, or get some counseling for your fragile personna so you don't have to cry a river the next time.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:38:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:43:46 AM EST by alaman]
There is not a damn thing the government can do about guns if we stand up and say no. An IRS official said a few years ago the gov't rules by intimidation. Said without it, people would not pay taxes and if people realized the power they had, they would stop paying taxes. Said they make sure to try one or two each year in a state and scare all others into paying. Said if all stopped or all started cheating, there is nothing the gov't. could do. Remember prohibition? People kept drinking and away it went.

The same for guns. If they pass some kind of ban, if we stand up and say no, there is nothing they can do. They will not arrest, jail, or invade the homes of hundreds of thousands of otherwise good citizens. If the people of Kalifornia, N.Y., etc. had refused to register their guns, these states would not have locked them all up or arrested them all, or beat down their doors. There are too many.

We need to realize this and just say no. I will.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:38:57 AM EST

Originally Posted By Wolf_Warrior:
U.S. Constitution, Amendment V(in part):
"...; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

= grandfather clause



this is not protecting you from a ban ala canadian where individual are grandfathered not the gun. we have many pepole here that can own FA but once they die its over
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:41:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By esquif:

Originally Posted By Wolf_Warrior:
U.S. Constitution, Amendment V(in part):
"...; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation."

= grandfather clause



this is not protecting you from a ban ala canadian where individual are grandfathered not the gun. we have many pepole here that can own FA but once they die its over



A corporation solves that problem A corp. can live forever.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:43:28 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:

Knock, knock........anyone home???

"We the people....."

Silly assertions that there might be another ban is based on those of you too lazy to get off your ass and write every last Congressman and Senator you can......then writing and calling the White House for good measure.

The folks asking if there is going to be another ban are OBVIOUSLY leaving THEIR future in the hands of others. Start taking some ownership GUN OWNERS......



Do you really think that writing Kerry if he gets elected will change his agenda on guns? Seriously, theres a very real limit to what letters will do for these misguided people. Think 25 million letters to feinstein will keep her from introducing more GC bills? uhhhh.....NO


This is the exact crap that I resent. Crack pipe? Who the fuck are you to say something like that? Do you know me? What an assbag.


I couldn't care less if you resent it whatsoever. To even insinuate in the least that there is a viable alternative to Bush in these elections shows who the real uneducated assbag is. You are what you say on here, and if you make a dumb statement, I'll rip your ass whether it's on a forum or in person. Get over it, or get some counseling for your fragile personna so you don't have to cry a river the next time.



LOL! Thanks for proving my point. I never tried to insinuate that there is any other alternative to vote for other than Bush. Of course I will vote for Bush, and of course his commitment to gun restriction is less than Kerry's policy. My point was, that instead of debating the subject, you did what most liberals do, rather than attacking the subject matter, you attacked me personally. You just did it again with this reply too. I am not fragile and dont take what you say seriously, I just didnt see the point in making this thing personal. We dont even know eachother. And another thing, I doubt you would rip me in person buddy, Id mop the sidewalk with your face.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:45:46 AM EST
I think if Bush is elected and maintains the senate or the house you will not see a ban in his four years. If he wins and looses both houses maybe ,but the propability of that happening is around zero.

If kerry is elected he would could issue a EO banning them but I doubt that would be politically smart. If the Republicans loose the senate which they might and kerry is POTUS you might see an attempt at anohter AWB. At the end of the day though you need to remember that Clinton made the statement that the AWB lost the dems 20 seats in congress in 94. Are the dems willing to loose again on this issue???
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:52:06 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 9:53:02 AM EST by fallingwrench]
NEVER AGAIN

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:53:27 AM EST

I have to ask... what is the point of the 'bury them in the yard' stuff? If you are going to roll over and pretend you don't have them when the collection squad comes what is the point? You won't be using them, practicing with them, selling them, and you won't even be able to safely travel with them. You just let them take your rights away, and hid your possesions in the dirt. What is the use of a buried gun? What WILL you fight for when push comes to shove?

If another ban gets passed it won't involve confiscation, more likely a CA like bill with grace registration period / no transfer. Fact is that if it goes through, 99.999% of us will fill out the paper work and bitch. I've never seen it go down any other way and I hold little hope it would in this case. Many gun owners have that line in the sand drawn at confiscation and the .gov knows it. However, we always accept and conform to paperwork requirements, and subsiquent arrest of paperwork felons without getting all upity. They know that and they will use it. Think about it. In a generation in CA there will be no legally owned AR15s right? They can't transfer them to anyone other than a dealer or the state. All without a fight.



I agree 100% BUT, I'm not going to be the .001% that stands up guns ablazing when the time comes for confiscation just so the rest of the gun world can say "damn, what a martyr!!" and go back to drinking their beers. At the very least it would be time to hide them, and get a thorough organized backing before doing anything stupid. As you said in your second statement 99.999% will lay down regardless of what comes along, and thats wherein the problem lies. I'd stand up and fight as soon as ANYONE, but I wouldn't through my life away for an unwinnable cause(not to say that situation would be unwinnable, but it would be with rash reactions without planning). I also wouldn't "turn em in", so the alternative and only way to still have them would be to hide them at least for awhile.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 9:56:39 AM EST

And another thing, I doubt you would rip me in person buddy, Id mop the sidewalk with your face.



uuhhhhh.......OK Rocky, you go!!! lol
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:00:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:

Knock, knock........anyone home???

"We the people....."

Silly assertions that there might be another ban is based on those of you too lazy to get off your ass and write every last Congressman and Senator you can......then writing and calling the White House for good measure.

The folks asking if there is going to be another ban are OBVIOUSLY leaving THEIR future in the hands of others. Start taking some ownership GUN OWNERS......



Do you really think that writing Kerry if he gets elected will change his agenda on guns? Seriously, theres a very real limit to what letters will do for these misguided people. Think 25 million letters to feinstein will keep her from introducing more GC bills? uhhhh.....NO



I'm sorry there are so many who feel this way. Those that think that the boogeyman will come, no matter what.

It's all a question of how much do you want your freedom. If you think that some second-rate politico from California will dictate her will upon you SUCCESSFULLY, then you're already out of the fight. I'm not out of the fight. My children, and their children will have my guns. The 2nd Amendment outlines our birthright, and I, along with others here and elsewhere, will do our absolute best to guarantee it for us, and future generations.

Please, don't succumb to a defeatist attitude.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:04:59 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:07:25 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:12:32 AM EST

I'm sorry there are so many who feel this way. Those that think that the boogeyman will come, no matter what.

It's all a question of how much do you want your freedom. If you think that some second-rate politico from California will dictate her will upon you SUCCESSFULLY, then you're already out of the fight. I'm not out of the fight. My children, and their children will have my guns. The 2nd Amendment outlines our birthright, and I, along with others here and elsewhere, will do our absolute best to guarantee it for us, and future generations.

Please, don't succumb to a defeatist attitude.



Hey, I agree and i definetely do more than my fair share, but be honest with yourself for a second. Writing letters and voicing our opinions only goes so far to counteract the liberal brainwashing propaganda of the masses. This year there was probably more pro gun letters sent than ever before in response to the AWB sunset, but it still hasn't changed Feinstein's, Kerry's, or any other liberal politicians mind. To really think that these people represent "the people" is naive at best. They have their agenda, and no matter what gun enthusiasts do or say, it won't be changed. I wish it was different, but it's not.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:15:52 AM EST
I at posts about "the next ban" because they are intellectual enemas. As _DR said, there's no predicting what will happen. Hell, the the General Election hasn't even f*cking happened yet. Even if it does, the Republicans still own the House, so any Ban that's proposed isn't a slam dunk for chrissakes: there's time to act. I'm also tired of people predicting what the "next ban" will encompass: more Crystal-Ball Drooling.

I deal in facts and actions. I write my Congress Critters. I vote. I buy things for their intrinsic value not some pie-in-the-sky "investment" bullsh*t. People who come on here and post The-Sky-is-Falling claptrap are not dealing in facts so they piss me off. Thus, it's on. Deal with it.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:17:20 AM EST

Yes, if Kerry is elected President he would suddenly write laws again......

Executive Branch vs. Legislative Branch......hmm....

Getting your PRO-GUN congress folks as EXCITED about the cause as you are is the key......they need to "get it" and fight for YOU and me on the House and Senate Floor.

But you already know that...



Come on, even you must realize that the president has major pull in what his party writes, and introduces into congress, and is ultimately signed into law. I thought that was pretty much a no brainer but hey, maybe theres a mental block or something.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:23:49 AM EST
The chances are about zero that there will be a new ban. The democrats' only hope is to sneak it into another piece of legislation and hope that it gets passed while the Republicans are in power so they can point to the Republicans as being at fault. Fat chance on that as seen with the last bill they tried this on. The Democrats don't want another massacre like the 94 elections. They might try it if they had very comfortable margins and could afford a severe backlash, but right now they don't have the Senate and not much hope for the House. I don't see too many people worried about another Prohibition amendment. "Gun control" (I never use that phrase - it is the enemy's phrase - I use gun banning) is a loser issue in Washington. Maybe it's finally percolating into Democrats' thick skulls. Not that they wouldn't like to have a total ban so they can pursue their socialist takeover agenda without worrying about exploding skulls.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:23:53 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:

I'm sorry there are so many who feel this way. Those that think that the boogeyman will come, no matter what.

It's all a question of how much do you want your freedom. If you think that some second-rate politico from California will dictate her will upon you SUCCESSFULLY, then you're already out of the fight. I'm not out of the fight. My children, and their children will have my guns. The 2nd Amendment outlines our birthright, and I, along with others here and elsewhere, will do our absolute best to guarantee it for us, and future generations.

Please, don't succumb to a defeatist attitude.



Hey, I agree and i definetely do more than my fair share, but be honest with yourself for a second. Writing letters and voicing our opinions only goes so far to counteract the liberal brainwashing propaganda of the masses. This year there was probably more pro gun letters sent than ever before in response to the AWB sunset, but it still hasn't changed Feinstein's, Kerry's, or any other liberal politicians mind. To really think that these people represent "the people" is naive at best. They have their agenda, and no matter what gun enthusiasts do or say, it won't be changed. I wish it was different, but it's not.



Right. There are some folks that we won't be able to change their minds:

Feinstein, Schumer, Kennedy, Boxer, Corzine, Clinton, Lautenberg, Kerry, Edwards, et al.

Since we, unless some act of God came about, can't change their minds, how about another course of action...like actively campaigning to remove them from office in the next election. As much as I think California screwed itself with getting Schwarzenegger over McClintock, the recall did send a message that enough people can and will get someone removed, if necessary. Incumbents can be removed from office is people stop putting up with their crap.

Defeatist thinking is our worst enemy, far more than Diane, Chuck, John-John could be, because by thinking such ways, WE give them power.

Don't give them power.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 10:44:19 AM EST

I at posts about "the next ban" because they are intellectual enemas. As _DR said, there's no predicting what will happen. Hell, the the General Election hasn't even f*cking happened yet. Even if it does, the Republicans still own the House, so any Ban that's proposed isn't a slam dunk for chrissakes: there's time to act. I'm also tired of people predicting what the "next ban" will encompass: more Crystal-Ball Drooling.

I deal in facts and actions. I write my Congress Critters. I vote. I buy things for their intrinsic value not some pie-in-the-sky "investment" bullsh*t. People who come on here and post The-Sky-is-Falling claptrap are not dealing in facts so they piss me off. Thus, it's on. Deal with it.



Well let me tell ya something. I own an ATV(all terrain vehicle) business as well, and in case you haven't noticed, they are under fire as much as guns. I have had the unpleasant experience of not only writing these same congressmen and law makers, but actually standing up and arguing with them in various public meetings. I tell you something, they are all crooked. They have their agendas, and no matter what proof, statistics, and common sense you bring to the table, it doesn't convince them one iota. What they do is simply pay off a few TV stations to air a biased story on the situation untill they sway the general publics uneducated opinion enough to counteract the voices on their opposition. Did you not see how they did that again with the AWB sunset? 80 percent of the public was for it, but yet only 2% knew what it was really about? I deal in facts too, and obviosly I've had way more experience in this realm than most on here, and to assume the threat is nil is absolutely absurd, and thinking that writing letters alone will significantly alter these peoples opinions is even more so. I don't think the sky is falling, but I know that when I go to various town hall meetings, all these pro gun, pro atv people are sitting home on the couch dinking a beer while I'm there getting my balls busted no matter what facts I present. Sure, they ask me how it went, but thats the extent of their involvement. It takes more than paper to convince these people, and thats all I see people doing on here. Insinuating that what I'm doing is laying down or defeatest cannot be further from the truth, as I'm constantly fighting on 2 fronts so those of you dogging my ass can have a good dose of STFU. Too bad there's not more of you keyboard jocky's practicing what you preach, cause I don't see many of you speaking out in the real public. If half of you spent as much time preaching to those outside this forum instead of arguing about whether colt or bushmaster is better, then maybe we'd get somewhere. I'm done with this thread, you boys have fun fighting amongst yourselves, as I'm done trying to instill a sense of reality.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:08:37 AM EST
Allright fellas this is good stuff, I wanted this debate to go on. Ridley, I hope you know I was just teasing you too.... no hard feelings man
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:54:35 AM EST

Allright fellas this is good stuff, I wanted this debate to go on. Ridley, I hope you know I was just teasing you too.... no hard feelings man



It's all good hippie.gif lol.



Link Posted: 10/6/2004 11:56:07 AM EST
Well I never obeyed the fist ban and I sure as hell won't obey the next one either. Especially if it is ordered by the UN.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:26:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 12:28:24 PM EST by shamayim]
Interesting thread Had a related conversation at work today. Was talking about being a teenager in Springfield, Mass. during the '50s, climbing on a city bus with my .22, to get to high school; walking in with it, and stowing it in the Principal's office til school was out; and then taking a city bus out to the old police range to do some target practice=== then taking the bus home.

Think I could do that today?

My point is that times have changed, and will keep on changing. I'm sad because I expect that my 7 year old son, the apple of my late life eye, will not only not be able to do as I did, but in all likelihood won't even be able have a .22 at 13, as I did. Have an AR at 21? I only hope they'll let him have an '03 Springfield, or 94 Winchester.

Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:47:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 12:53:43 PM EST by Grunteled]

Originally Posted By Ridley:

I at posts about "the next ban" because they are intellectual enemas. As _DR said, there's no predicting what will happen. Hell, the the General Election hasn't even f*cking happened yet. Even if it does, the Republicans still own the House, so any Ban that's proposed isn't a slam dunk for chrissakes: there's time to act. I'm also tired of people predicting what the "next ban" will encompass: more Crystal-Ball Drooling.

I deal in facts and actions. I write my Congress Critters. I vote. I buy things for their intrinsic value not some pie-in-the-sky "investment" bullsh*t. People who come on here and post The-Sky-is-Falling claptrap are not dealing in facts so they piss me off. Thus, it's on. Deal with it.



Well let me tell ya something. I own an ATV(all terrain vehicle) business as well, and in case you haven't noticed, they are under fire as much as guns. I have had the unpleasant experience of not only writing these same congressmen and law makers, but actually standing up and arguing with them in various public meetings. I tell you something, they are all crooked. They have their agendas, and no matter what proof, statistics, and common sense you bring to the table, it doesn't convince them one iota. What they do is simply pay off a few TV stations to air a biased story on the situation untill they sway the general publics uneducated opinion enough to counteract the voices on their opposition. Did you not see how they did that again with the AWB sunset? 80 percent of the public was for it, but yet only 2% knew what it was really about? I deal in facts too, and obviosly I've had way more experience in this realm than most on here, and to assume the threat is nil is absolutely absurd, and thinking that writing letters alone will significantly alter these peoples opinions is even more so. I don't think the sky is falling, but I know that when I go to various town hall meetings, all these pro gun, pro atv people are sitting home on the couch dinking a beer while I'm there getting my balls busted no matter what facts I present. Sure, they ask me how it went, but thats the extent of their involvement. It takes more than paper to convince these people, and thats all I see people doing on here. Insinuating that what I'm doing is laying down or defeatest cannot be further from the truth, as I'm constantly fighting on 2 fronts so those of you dogging my ass can have a good dose of STFU. Too bad there's not more of you keyboard jocky's practicing what you preach, cause I don't see many of you speaking out in the real public. If half of you spent as much time preaching to those outside this forum instead of arguing about whether colt or bushmaster is better, then maybe we'd get somewhere. I'm done with this thread, you boys have fun fighting amongst yourselves, as I'm done trying to instill a sense of reality.



No reason to take your toys and go home. You make good points. Also realize however, not everyone can run to town hall meetings, but writing is far more involved than most of the Joe-six-packs ever get. In a whole office full of people, I am the only person who has written a letter to congress that I have met thus far. That alone is sad.

I try to bring up my shooting around my coworkers to get discussions rolling about these issues. To take a chance to point out the stupidity of the arguments for gun control. What have I found? Most people can be swayed quickly by knowing someone who is not a mass killer who also owns and enjoys an AR. Flaming gun haters, could care less what fact is presented. Many gun owners in general don't care much about guns but own them as a trinket they play with sometimes. This is the problem. None of those people vote based on that issue. That weakens us more than anything. I know many pistol shooters who despite being talked to about semi-auto rifles would still support a candidate that wanted to ban them. Casual shooters don't see it as an issue of liberty they see it as a recreational sport, that they can live without probably. At the same time the educated are less likely to jump on the ban ‘em all express.

So what's my point? I think the process is the reverse of your description. The local media runs a story about a crazy man who shoots up a building and shows widow after widow who cry and say why are people still walking the streets with guns. They run it because that's what people watch. The majority of the brain-dead, TV audience nod and drool about 'guns bad, control good'. A politico sees a great opportunity to appeal to these masses with a quick proposal to ban XYZ type gun. They can count on some air time and getting a vocal group behind them to shout down the often dismal turnout of gun owners. Who assume that for some reason stupid laws just won't make it through.

Now unless that politico is from an area that has a large very vocal gun owning community they can count on the support or at least apathy of most of the population. So they have a ready-made platform. The worst of 'em don't do it because they believe it, They do it because in an urban setting it's a winner and your logical argument will not affect that. No news station will give you equal time... or any time. No paper will run your position on the front page no matter how good it is. That's the pathology of the Schumers, and Lautenburgs. It becomes one of their 'core issues' and they have a loyal voting following who they please.

The ones that really do believe it are where you direct your efforts. Yes some politios do actually work to do the right thing. Enough letters reach their desk and they can be swayed. Not all of them are dishonest to the core. If nobody writes cause they assume that letters change nothing then no opposing viewpoints will reach that offiical. Common sense tells you who falls into the catagory in the paragraph above, don't write-off everyone because of them.

The time to fight against a new ban is BEFORE it takes hold. Beat it back for a few years and there *WILL* be a new 'issue' that everyone has to address. The attitude that we can't win kills us. Most of the gun owners I know would never attend a rally because "They'll have two times the number of us on the other side". Well, how do you think that happens Capitan obvious? Damnit, go. Speak out. Talk to coworkers, friends, relatives about what you do any why you enjoy it, and why it's important.


Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:53:29 PM EST
If we to the point were we have to bury shit in the backyard as Ridley suggest, I hope my fellow gun owners will be ready to shoot instead of bury. I'm not going to bury anything.

As far as a new ban. Not going to happen as long as the Republicans control the US House.

Kerry if he gets in can do damage. He can and will appoint an AG that will be hostile to firearms ownership. He can and will appoint a Secretary of the Treasury(heads ATF) who will be hostile to firearms ownership. Between a hostile AG and hostile head of ATF they can do great damge to gun owners by re-interpreting regulations. They could cut off imports with the stroke of a pen. Mags, rifle parts etc. Non of that would affect AR's really but AR's are not the only target.

We need Bush to win and we need Republicans to retain control of the US House. If that happens, we will be safe for another four years, probably. If that doesn't happen, the gun banning will begin in earnest.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 12:58:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By gaspipes:
If we to the point were we have to bury shit in the backyard as Ridley suggest, I hope my fellow gun owners will be ready to shoot instead of bury. I'm not going to bury anything.

As far as a new ban. Not going to happen as long as the Republicans control the US House.

Kerry if he gets in can do damage. He can and will appoint an AG that will be hostile to firearms ownership. He can and will appoint a Secretary of the Treasury(heads ATF) who will be hostile to firearms ownership. Between a hostile AG and hostile head of ATF they can do great damge to gun owners by re-interpreting regulations. They could cut off imports with the stroke of a pen. Mags, rifle parts etc. Non of that would affect AR's really but AR's are not the only target.

We need Bush to win and we need Republicans to retain control of the US House. If that happens, we will be safe for another four years, probably. If that doesn't happen, the gun banning will begin in earnest.



I hope so too. There would not be an easy way to spin a few thousand or tens of thousands of suburban IT workers, doctors, truck drivers, teachers, and professionals refusing to hand them over and fighting. It would be much harder to conceal and much more difficult to justify then it would to burn down a 'compound' full of 'terrorist gun radicals' in the woods somewhere.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:17:00 PM EST
didn't washington dc lift the ban it had on guns yesterday? I think it's the first time in like 25 years or something that guns can legally be carried/owned in dc. if anything, i think putting "gun control" in the hands of lawful gun owners is the best thing you can do to prevent crime......

i don't know about you, but if im some asshole looking to bang an old lady or anybody for that matter outta 50$ so i can buy my next fix, i'm not gonna worry that they are going to pull a gun on me if i know they cant legally own guns. lawful citizens follow the rules. like the old saying goes...."if you outlaw guns, only outlaws will have guns"

now say there isnt any gun restriction, i might think twice about stickin someone up cuz they very well may have a piece of their own. i think it's just common sense.

lower crime rates attributed to gun control is bullshit as well......there are SO MANY other factors involved....economy, etc. crime basically rises and falls w/ the econemy....when th eeconemy is up, less crime and vice versa. the only way to stop cime is to give the people jobs so they won't have to steal for a living
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 1:26:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ridley:
Secondly, when a new ban is inplemented, you better have proof that you have "built" rifles and not stripped lowers. It's pretty safe to assume that will be a clause, and it's better to be safe than sorry. A notorized and dated picture of the Build costs a whole whopping 5 bucks and MAY go a long way in proving your case. Keeping receipts will help also. Nato wants our guns, the Dems want our guns, and a bazillion other orgs want our guns. To think that there will never be another ban is downright moronic. Eventually, it will happen, the best we can hope for is to postpone it as long as possible. My advice is to document everything, as it can't hurt you and very well may help you.



I believe the burden of proof would be on the government, not us.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:22:18 PM EST
I just wanted to say that since the ban has set I have talked to a bunch of people about the ban setting asking what they think.no one knew what I was talking about. Heck my friend that has guns I said something to him and he didnt know what I was talking about. So yes you are right most people dont know anything about it.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:35:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/6/2004 2:40:17 PM EST by Ridley]

I believe the burden of proof would be on the government, not us.



Really? hmmmm...........I wouldn't be so sure about that. Are you also saying that documentation wouldn't be a great idea to counter their "evidence"? You've never been audited or anything have you? They need little if any evidence to charge you thousands of dollars in extra taxes. How do you beat them? DOCUMENTATION. If you don't have it, the burden of proof because alot less of a burden regardless of the charges.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 2:54:17 PM EST
Join and fight with us. When GOA speaks they listen. Yes the NRA is good if you want to keep your single shot shotgun, if you like compromise they are for you. GOA will not give an inch. We want to take ground. www.gunowners.org/
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 10:48:29 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 4:37:50 PM EST
I really laugh at all that don't reconize a pre-ban rifle as just that! WW2 is over but there are still conciderations for a 1911 pistol made before or during the war,in a remington rand it can be as much as 200 bucks!

Yes there is no ban now,but there was one!!! And all AR/15 made before the 94 ban are and allways will be pre-ban rifles! Because just like WW2 happened the ban happened also!

Don't mean to say they should command higher prices than any new rifle,just they were pre-ban!!!


Bob
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