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Posted: 12/2/2002 7:01:22 AM EDT
"Steve" is an elementary school teacher, a bleeding-heart liberal, an atheist, and an anti-gun advocate. We have opposing views on virtually all issues, and the fact that he's a pacifist really gets me going on foreign policy and America's military. Despite all of this, he has been one of my closest friends for over 20 years. Even I wonder why sometimes. After many spirited debates over gun-control and assault weapons, I persuaded him to accompany me to the NRA HQ range to shoot. He reluctantly agreed after canceling more times than I can remember (his wife was afraid that he'd be killed there, no shit). On the way to the range, I had him read 5 pages of Gun Safety tips that I pulled of the internet. The NRA staff is always top-drawer, and he was very impressed with their professionalism. After a short written test, I gave him some firearms history, evolution, and I let him hold an unloaded handgun while explaining the mechanical workings. I wanted him to be fully prepared before we donned eyes and ears. When the staff told us we had a 30 minute wait for a lane, he wanted to leave. I flat out refused. I wasn't about walk out after years of working him to this point. He had to call his wife to see if she would allow him to come home 30 minutes later than originally agreed. Yeah, he's somewhat of a pussy in their relationship. Eventually, we shot my wife's H&K .40 handgun, and my Bushmaster 16" shorty with a Tasco red-dot scope. Not only did he shoot well for a first-timer, he had FUN! In fact, he loved the experience! He showed his first target to other shooters like a kid who'd just won a Fire Prevention Poster Contest! He admitted, without grudge, that he had been wrong about guns, and that his position had been based upon fear and ignorance of the issues. The act of shooting gradually made his fear give way, and he now feels better informed. Although he was not prepared to go out and by a gun, he did say that he has a new appreciation and respect for shooting sports. "The next time you go, DEFINITELY call me. I want to do this again!" Do all of us a favor. Take a non-shooter to the range and take some steam, no matter how little, out of the anti-gun movement! [50]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:07:39 AM EDT
Way to go Clay-More. Hopefully your friend will show some spine and try it again. Maybe even have his wife come out and try it. You might make some converts. It's good that he admitted he was wrong. We all knew he was, but won't rub it in if he's seen the light, seen the truth. Keep up the good work, keep him in a safe environment as he explores his new found knowledge, and has fun with it. :)
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:19:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 7:24:14 AM EDT
true "anti's" are hard to find in my neighborhood. but, there are plenty of morons around here from which to choose.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:11:43 AM EDT
Just wanted to say thanks.Keep up the good work. War Dawg
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:17:25 AM EDT
Good job! [beer]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:18:54 AM EDT
10 to 1 his wife won't let him go next time.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:21:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Clay-More: Do all of us a favor. Take a non-shooter to the range and take some steam, no matter how little, out of the anti-gun movement! [50]
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I want to reiterate what Clay-More said. I know of about a half-dozen people who were rabidly anti-gun who changed their tune after going to the range. Not to the point where they bought their own guns and stuff, but the ignorant passion of their convictions was gone. Remember, hard-core anti-gun people as a rule do not have any first-hand experience with weapons. It is the fear of the unknown that drives them. Once they understand and work with guns a little bit, they aren't so "mysterious" and they get a better perspective on the whole issue. -Nick Viejo.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:26:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Clay-More: He admitted, without grudge, that he had been wrong about guns, and that his position had been based upon fear and ignorance of the issues. The act of shooting gradually made his fear give way, and he now feels better informed. Although he was not prepared to go out and by a gun, he did say that he has a new appreciation and respect for shooting sports. "The next time you go, DEFINITELY call me. I want to do this again!"
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[^] At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, this reminds me of the line: "He who saves a single life, saves the whole world." You'll never know how far that one act will spread, like ripples on the water. Well done!! [beer]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:31:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 8:33:10 AM EDT by jrzy]
My youngest son has dated about ten different girls this year and has taken them all to the range and taught them to shoot. He teaches them safety first and then lets them get familiar with the weapon they will shoot and they come away with a very positive experience. You know those girls are going to have children someday and their kids will learn guns aren't evil because their mom was taught about them. edited to add,Good job Clay-More [beer]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:33:43 AM EDT
First off, let me commend you for showing an anti the light. BUT.......
Originally Posted By Clay-More: "Steve" is an elementary school teacher, a bleeding-heart liberal, an atheist, and an anti-gun advocate.
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WTF does being an atheist have to do with anything? Or for that matter, what does being a school teacher have to do with it either? Are you saying that all school teachers are evil anti-gunners? And don't even get me started on the anti-atheist comment[:(!] Promote the sport, but don't generalize people into perceived catagories.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:36:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: First off, let me commend you for showing an anti the light. BUT.......
Originally Posted By Clay-More: "Steve" is an elementary school teacher, a bleeding-heart liberal, an atheist, and an anti-gun advocate.
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WTF does being an atheist have to do with anything?
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Maybe he just assumes that atheists don't believ e that the RKBA is a "God-given right". [:D]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:38:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: First off, let me commend you for showing an anti the light. BUT.......
Originally Posted By Clay-More: "Steve" is an elementary school teacher, a bleeding-heart liberal, an atheist, and an anti-gun advocate.
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WTF does being an atheist have to do with anything? Or for that matter, what does being a school teacher have to do with it either? Are you saying that all school teachers are evil anti-gunners? And don't even get me started on the anti-atheist comment[:(!] Promote the sport, but don't generalize people into perceived catagories.
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Struck a nerve there. Outstanding job Clay-More!
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:42:13 AM EDT
JRZY get your son to post here, we need to learn from him!
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 8:46:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: First off, let me commend you for showing an anti the light. BUT.......
Originally Posted By Clay-More: "Steve" is an elementary school teacher, a bleeding-heart liberal, an atheist, and an anti-gun advocate.
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WTF does being an atheist have to do with anything? Or for that matter, what does being a school teacher have to do with it either? Are you saying that all school teachers are evil anti-gunners? And don't even get me started on the anti-atheist comment[:(!] Promote the sport, but don't generalize people into perceived catagories.
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has a lot to do with it. school teacher = damn good chance of being a liberal atheist = same thing only worse.. how many conservative atheists do you know? About the same number as black Ph.D.s from Over-the-Rhine, I'd wager. They exist, but only as the exception that proves the rule.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:03:42 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:05:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 9:07:10 AM EDT by JH225]
has a lot to do with it. school teacher = damn good chance of being a liberal atheist = same thing only worse.. how many conservative atheists do you know? About the same number as black Ph.D.s from Over-the-Rhine, I'd wager. They exist, but only as the exception that proves the rule.
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Being a school teacher automatically means being a liberal? Please! 1 teacher in my club is even an NRA certified instructor & a RKBA advocate. I guess he is a liberal, huh? [>:/] How many conservative atheists do I know? Well, for starters, I AM the most conservative atheist you will ever meet. I have more morals and values than 99.9% of the hypocritical religous fanatics in this world. PERIOD. Maybe I should become a Catholic priest so I can fondle little boy's like it is OK or something. How's that for generalization? Get you head out of your ass. Just because someone does not believe in a "supreme" being, doesn't mean that person is the enemy.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:30:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/2/2002 9:37:51 AM EDT by C_Brooks]
"his wife was afraid that he'd be killed there, no shit" A bleeding-heart,anti-gun,pacifist liberal atheist,why would anybody want to kill a guy like that?[;D] BTW:Try to get him on the site sohe can see the wide range of folks that make up the wacky world of gun nuts,and that most of us are only a littel nuts[:D]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:38:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225:
has a lot to do with it. school teacher = damn good chance of being a liberal atheist = same thing only worse.. how many conservative atheists do you know? About the same number as black Ph.D.s from Over-the-Rhine, I'd wager. They exist, but only as the exception that proves the rule.
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Being a school teacher automatically means being a liberal? Please! 1 teacher in my club is even an NRA certified instructor & a RKBA advocate. I guess he is a liberal, huh? [>:/] How many conservative atheists do I know? Well, for starters, I AM the most conservative atheist you will ever meet. I have more morals and values than 99.9% of the hypocritical religous fanatics in this world. PERIOD. Maybe I should become a Catholic priest so I can fondle little boy's like it is OK or something. How's that for generalization? Get you head out of your ass. Just because someone does not believe in a "supreme" being, doesn't mean that person is the enemy.
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Are you done being an ass yet? Not once did he say being a school teacher made you a liberal. Fact is, most teachers are liberal and most liberals are anti-RKBA. You're arguing a point that no one has even stated. Again, the fact remains, there aren't exactly an abundance of conservative atheists. If you are, then more power to you. You comment about having more morals than 99.9% is nice too, just don't bring up something that stupid in an argument again. If you want to become Catholic, be my guest. We're not generalizing, we're dealing in fact, while you're writing in fiction.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:42:25 AM EDT
Claymore was just casually playing with language. Schoolteachers, liberals, and atheists, stop taking offence!
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:45:26 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:46:53 AM EDT
how many conservative atheists do you know?
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Right here.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:49:41 AM EDT
Since he's a school teacher, if the subject of firearms comes up in class, he won't give negitive info to the little tots.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:50:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225:
has a lot to do with it. school teacher = damn good chance of being a liberal atheist = same thing only worse.. how many conservative atheists do you know? About the same number as black Ph.D.s from Over-the-Rhine, I'd wager. They exist, but only as the exception that proves the rule.
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Being a school teacher automatically means being a liberal? Please! 1 teacher in my club is even an NRA certified instructor & a RKBA advocate. I guess he is a liberal, huh? [>:/] How many conservative atheists do I know? Well, for starters, I AM the most conservative atheist you will ever meet.
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Perhaps you should take a reading comprehention class... when someone says good chance of being something, it doesn't mean they all are. Would you disagree that there's a good chance? Or are you in denial?
I have more morals and values than 99.9% of the hypocritical religous fanatics in this world. PERIOD.
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Glad to know you have "more morals and values" than roughly 5,994,000,000 people around the world. You should be proud... or perhaps learn math.
Maybe I should become a Catholic priest so I can fondle little boy's like it is OK or something. How's that for generalization?
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Yes, we all know that the odds of catholic priests being child molestors are about as high as his generalizations. By your crazy concepts, that means I just said they all are.
Get you head out of your ass. Just because someone does not believe in a "supreme" being, doesn't mean that person is the enemy.
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He never said anyone was the enemy... in fact he said the guy was one of his good friends. Learn to read, bud. What exactly do YOU think the odds of this particular friend being a conservative? 99.9%? sounds good...
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:56:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By go3: Are you done being an ass yet? Not once did he say being a school teacher made you a liberal. Fact is, most teachers are liberal and most liberals are anti-RKBA. You're arguing a point that no one has even stated. Again, the fact remains, there aren't exactly an abundance of conservative atheists. If you are, then more power to you. You comment about having more morals than 99.9% is nice too, just don't bring up something that stupid in an argument again. If you want to become Catholic, be my guest. We're not generalizing, we're dealing in fact, while you're writing in fiction.
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Once again, let me re-iterate for those members who appear to be mentally challenged. What Clay-More did was a good thing, but the fact that the guy is a school teacher and an atheist has nothing to do with nothing, PERIOD. Let's all leave our preconcieved perceptions of religion, lack of religion, or professions(I happen to be an LEO, want to jump on that bashing too?) in our minds, where it belongs.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:05:37 AM EDT
Clay-more stated that he and his friend have opposing viewpoints and that first sentence revealed what they were. If you're not arguing with the anti-gun label why would you argue about the others? Calling someone an atheist when they are an atheist is not prejudicial. Maybe the "bleeding heart" preface could be prejudicial but I doubt "Steve" objects to his friend calling him that. Steven Spielberg, who is producing a new series "Taken" on extraterrestials stated that he is sure there is life on other planets despite his uncertainty of extraterrestials visiting this planet.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:07:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:20:35 AM EDT
Good going,[beer] the world needs more friends like you two.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:21:17 AM EDT
Hooah! Aviator
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:34:43 AM EDT
Originally Posted By thebeekeeper1: Good going, my friend. I and my wife do this as regularly as we can, usually with women. It works every time! [:D]
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Uh, if them's womenz with big hooters I'd be willing to help out. [:D]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:38:37 AM EDT
snip My youngest son has dated about ten different girls this year... snip
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Busy guy. [>:/]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 10:41:47 AM EDT
Next time, have him bring his wife.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:05:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: Let's all leave our preconcieved perceptions of religion, lack of religion, or professions(I happen to be an LEO, want to jump on that bashing too?) in our minds, where it belongs.
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[b]WTFO[/b] Last I checked my ARFCOMmunity is made up of humans, and we humans all have preconceived perceptions. We always make decisions taking into account, among other things, past experience. Deal with it. If I were like you I'd tear a new hole in all those people who make snide remarks (which, [u]at worst[/u], is what claymore did) about liberals and immigrants. After all, I'm a constitutionalist, capitalist, gun toting liberal. As for immigrants my parents came here and worked hard for what they have, everybody in my family except my 19yo and 5yo sisters have paid more in income taxes than we have taken from 'the system' (public school is the biggest freebie i've gotten). My parents born 10,000miles from us speak better English than me, and I'll bet even the 5yo could take the SAT verbal and hit at least the 50% percentile. But I wont, because the preconceived notions among my ARFCOMmunity is that liberals are gungrabbing socialist monkeys, and that immigrants come here refusing to learn English and insisting on riding the dole. This isn't true, but again is the preconceived perceptions among the people I respect. All minority groups are going to have to come to grips with this. They call 'em minorities for a reason. Put yourself in the shoes of the people on this website. View atheism/liberals from THEIR point of view and not yours, and build bridges based on that. Assume the other party is a reasonable person and has a motivation you do not agree with, but is consistent.[1] You don't have to go [b]pushing it in peoples faces[/b] that hey, we are fine and alright. Participate in the community, let people see your alternative stripes (your atheism, my brown skin), and let them see you as professional and a contributor to the community. I didn't have to tell people that standardized scholastic tests put my language skills above that of a huge portion of the population made up of american kids growing up all their lives in american homes to american parents; readers of my posts can judge that for themselves. I wont go trying to tell people that an immigrant coming here for the American Dream probably has values in line with theirs; readers of my posts can judge for themselves. Anybody from any minority group here, homosexuals or potsmokers or mentally ill or muslim or former employees of the Clinton administration, who expects [b]mainstream acceptance[/b], is a [b]fucking moron[/b], even when they do truly deserve mainstream acceptance. [1] from [url]http://www.pinkpistols.org/breaking_barriers.html[/url]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:09:42 AM EDT
Damn, I need to find some hot redheaded anti-gun women to take to the gun range. Or pro-gun will work to. I'm easy like that.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:31:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Stoney-Point: 10 to 1 his wife won't let him go next time.
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[size=5]NEXT TIME take his WIFE too!!!!![/size=5]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:51:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: First off, let me commend you for showing an anti the light. BUT.......
Originally Posted By Clay-More: "Steve" is an elementary school teacher, a bleeding-heart liberal, an atheist, and an anti-gun advocate.
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WTF does being an atheist have to do with anything? Or for that matter, what does being a school teacher have to do with it either? Are you saying that all school teachers are evil anti-gunners? And don't even get me started on the anti-atheist comment[:(!] Promote the sport, but don't generalize people into perceived catagories.
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Maybe he was just trying to give us all an idea of what this guy was like. I have a very good mental picture of the person. I'm glad he took time to give us some background on they guy. I'm putting your name on the board! One more outburst like that and its off to the office with you! [:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:51:57 AM EDT
I for one, am done with this topic.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:55:09 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225:
Originally Posted By go3: Are you done being an ass yet? Not once did he say being a school teacher made you a liberal. Fact is, most teachers are liberal and most liberals are anti-RKBA. You're arguing a point that no one has even stated. Again, the fact remains, there aren't exactly an abundance of conservative atheists. If you are, then more power to you. You comment about having more morals than 99.9% is nice too, just don't bring up something that stupid in an argument again. If you want to become Catholic, be my guest. We're not generalizing, we're dealing in fact, while you're writing in fiction.
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Once again, let me re-iterate for those members who appear to be mentally challenged. What Clay-More did was a good thing, but the fact that the guy is a school teacher and an atheist has nothing to do with nothing, PERIOD. Let's all leave our preconcieved perceptions of religion, lack of religion, or professions(I happen to be an LEO, want to jump on that bashing too?) in our minds, where it belongs.
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Thats it! I let it go the last time but your testing my nerves! To the office with you, I dont want to see you in class for a couple days! Seriously, why insult the members here. You being a teacher should know that a majority of your fellow teachers are liberal. During my entire time in school I think I met a total of 3 conservative teachers. You sir are a rare breed. No reason to get all defensive.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:58:36 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: I for one, am done with this topic.
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You've got to settle down a bit. If this conversation were done person to person with everyone here then everyone would quickly come to an understanding. Since its the net its a bit harder to get a point across.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 12:03:29 PM EDT
Umm, Schapman, I didn't say I was a teacher, I was just defending some friends of mine. I actually said I was an LEO[:)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 12:10:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: Umm, Schapman, I didn't say I was a teacher, I was just defending some friends of mine. I actually said I was an LEO[:)]
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I for one, am done with this topic.
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Hey! You said you were done! [:D]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 12:35:39 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 12:36:15 PM EDT
What's up with all these guys taken out womenz to the range and not reporting back with [b]PICTURES[/B]!! Shame on you. Youz are the ones that should be sent to the office![;)]
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 4:18:29 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Stoney-Point: 10 to 1 his wife won't let him go next time.
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That's why next time you invite [b]both[/b] of them.
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 9:52:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:17:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: First off, let me commend you for showing an anti the light. BUT....... WTF does being an atheist have to do with anything? Or for that matter, what does being a school teacher have to do with it either? Are you saying that all school teachers are evil anti-gunners?
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It's been my experience that the vast majority of teachers are mildly, if not flaming, anti. Male or female, doesn't matter. My Mother is a retired teacher & I have an Education Degree so I had a personal relationship with many teachers as an adult. No flame intended, just my .o2
Link Posted: 12/2/2002 11:24:46 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JH225: Umm, Schapman, I didn't say I was a teacher, I was just defending some friends of mine. I actually said I was an LEO[:)]
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Just because your a cop doesnt put you above the rules! To the office with you! [:)] I'm not quite sure where I got the idea that you were a teacher. Probably because you were so pissed. Oh well, have a good one and stay safe out there.
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 6:30:37 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/3/2002 6:50:47 AM EDT by Steve-in-VA]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 6:48:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By The_Macallan: *snip* At the risk of sounding overly dramatic, this reminds me of the line: "He who saves a single life, saves the whole world." You'll never know how far that one act will spread, like ripples on the water. Well done!! [beer]
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It's the Talmud...
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 8:09:14 AM EDT
Good Job[beer]
Link Posted: 12/3/2002 2:29:00 PM EDT
Clay-More, I admire you beyond comprehension for this, THIS is the way to handle things. embrace and befriend, do not point fingers and degrade. Too often pro-gunners accidently become replusive to anti-gunners in this way, it is the anti's nature to be that way, we should rise above it all. I see this in church goers also, but that is another story. I was raised by a anti-gun, liberal mom, I was sort of against guns too, till I remembered what it was like to sneak out my dad's BB gun and shoot at squirrels and a friend once invited me to go out and blast stuff with his Marlin 22 rifle. When I got out on my own, I bought a Ruger 10-22, the rest is history.
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