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Posted: 7/18/2010 4:26:32 PM EDT
I work security part-time at a bar in a bad part of town. Last night, we had one hell of a fight (fueled by liquid stupidity). The fight eventually went out to the parking lot, where one individual retrieved a golf club (looked like a driver) out of a trunk with the intention of beating the primary aggressor with it.

What kind of threat would you consider that to be? There's a potential for injury with that kind of weapon, obviously, but I don't know if it could cause death or serious injury. What do you guys think? And thanks in advance for your opinions.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 4:39:40 PM EDT
Very tough question,

sure the golf club could to the head could cause a scull fracture, anuerism, or some other complications that could result in death.

Is it highly likely, prob not.

Does it justify lethal force? I guess it could, but I honestly dont think it does, simply because a golf club is not immediately deemed a "lethal weapon" and it would look bad to the public and the courts.

My unexperienced 2 centavos
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 4:40:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2010 4:41:02 PM EDT by bcauz3y]
Are you asking if this is a lethal threat?

I'm thinking reasonable bodily harm, but I wouldn't draw down on the guy.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 4:56:27 PM EDT
our dept tells us to respond to a threat one level higher than the threat itself, in this situation i would guess a taser deployment would take care of the situation nicely
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:14:49 PM EDT


Yes, definitely a lethal threat, without question.

Let me rephrase it, would you let me whack you upside your noggin with a golf club? Would you expect to live through the encounter?

Fuck that.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:32:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/18/2010 5:33:43 PM EDT by hkusp9]
Originally Posted By pevrs114:


Yes, definitely a lethal threat, without question.

Let me rephrase it, would you let me whack you upside your noggin with a golf club? Would you expect to live through the encounter?

Fuck that.


im surprised that it took multiple posts for somebody to figure that out.

There have been plenty of people murdered with golf clubs, baseball bats, fireplace pokers, metal pipes, sledgehammers, ect.

Next time yall get a chance, ask to walk through your depts evidence lockup and take a look at the weapons. They're all probably old beat up rusted small caliber concealable firearms and random bludgenoning devices like golf clubs, bats, 2x4's, ect.

I could kill almost any person cold dead on one good swing with a 9 iron. Of course nobodys going to stand still with their noggin exposed while this occurs but a golf club is a very real and lethal threat if somebodys swinging on your head.

And as a police officer, anything capable of making me loose consciousness for  a second is a lethal threat. I dont need a perp jacking and shooting me with my handgun and running through town with it.

Now granted, although an officer is justified to use lethal force against a suspect with a golf club, I would be more likely to get distance from you, pepper spray you (we dont have tazers) and then bum rush and tackle you.

However if you bum rushed me with a golf club in a bar parking lot during the middle of a drunken brawl, things might not go so well.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:43:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By pevrs114:


Yes, definitely a lethal threat, without question.

Let me rephrase it, would you let me whack you upside your noggin with a golf club? Would you expect to live through the encounter?

Fuck that.


+1.  The force continumn does not require that you fight fire with fire.  Like the previous poster stated you "one up" the aggressor.  Several years ago a fellow cop with an AR shot/killed someone chasing him down with a 2x4 board.  It was deemed a good shoot.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 5:58:40 PM EDT
Fair enough; I appreciate the answers here.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a lot of experience dealing with drunk folks armed with golf clubs. I was trying to use the minimum force necessary to keep him away from the other guy. In this case, that meant holding him back, and trying to tell him that it wasn't worth going to jail. In retrospect, that could have been a bad mistake for me. Next time, I think the TASER might be a little safer (I don't work armed, however, my partner does, and he was there with me).
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 6:17:28 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Bossier1:
Originally Posted By pevrs114:


Yes, definitely a lethal threat, without question.

Let me rephrase it, would you let me whack you upside your noggin with a golf club? Would you expect to live through the encounter?

Fuck that.


+1.  The force continumn does not require that you fight fire with fire.  Like the previous poster stated you "one up" the aggressor.  Several years ago a fellow cop with an AR shot/killed someone chasing him down with a 2x4 board.  It was deemed a good shoot.


A golf club would work in the same way that an ASP baton works.  All of the force would be at the tip, with the shaft not being
much of a problem.

Now, ask yourself this:  If a cop loses his baton (to the aggressor), does it become a lethal force encounter? YEP.
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 7:12:42 PM EDT



Originally Posted By pevrs114:






Yes, definitely a lethal threat, without question.



Let me rephrase it, would you let me whack you upside your noggin with a golf club? Would you expect to live through the encounter?



Fuck that.


Nailed it....



 
Link Posted: 7/18/2010 7:30:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By infantryman07:
Fair enough; I appreciate the answers here.

I'll be the first to admit that I don't have a lot of experience dealing with drunk folks armed with golf clubs. I was trying to use the minimum force necessary to keep him away from the other guy. In this case, that meant holding him back, and trying to tell him that it wasn't worth going to jail. In retrospect, that could have been a bad mistake for me. Next time, I think the TASER might be a little safer (I don't work armed, however, my partner does, and he was there with me).


Review your state's laws and court history with regard to use of force.  Review your contract with your employer. (I hope you have a good contract.)

I had a very good friend get hurt on a part-time club security job.  He was breaking up a fight when a woman stood behind him and whacked the side of his head with a beer bottle.  Trip to the emergency room, stitches.  At least the club had cameras that documented the attack.  

Two days later I help him get to the detective's office for interviews.  In the middle of the interview half of his head suddenly swells up and he has nausea, intense pain and has turned pale.  Rush back to the hospital.  

He was barely making his house payment.  He's probably going to lose the house now, and it's going to be a while before the legal machine gets spooled up to cover his medical/injury compensation.  All for a part-time job.

Your employers had better be making it worth your while.  They probably aren't.  Take heed, make a wise decision.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 7:18:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By tmckeit1:
our dept tells us to respond to a threat one level higher than the threat itself, in this situation i would guess a taser deployment would take care of the situation nicely


Even though I am not a LEO yet (still in college)  I agree with tmckeit1 , although I would consider a golf club a deadly weapon, the way this is playing out I believe that the taser is the best tool for this job.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 9:42:36 AM EDT
Golf club = deadly weapon (can cause serious bodily injury or death).  The hell with the Taser - I'm drawing down if you come after me with one.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 9:45:34 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Are you asking if this is a lethal threat?

I'm thinking reasonable bodily harm, but I wouldn't draw down on the guy.


This. I'd match it with an ASP.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 12:23:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 12:28:54 PM EDT by BonecrusherAPD]
Originally Posted By Bossier1:
Originally Posted By pevrs114:


Yes, definitely a lethal threat, without question.

Let me rephrase it, would you let me whack you upside your noggin with a golf club? Would you expect to live through the encounter?

Fuck that.


+1.  The force continumn does not require that you fight fire with fire.  Like the previous poster stated you "one up" the aggressor.  Several years ago a fellow cop with an AR shot/killed someone chasing him down with a 2x4 board.  It was deemed a good shoot.


+2.  It isn't a stairway where you have to go up the steps until you reach the top.  Ive been the first to a scene where a branch broken from a nearby tree was used to literally beat a man to death.  A golf club is surely more likely than an improvised tree branch club to cause serious bodily injury, and thats all the justification I need.

ETA:  A taser would only be appropriate in this situation if deployed by the backup or secondary officer.  I don't want to be holding a taser that has the potential for failure without an immediate follow-up when a pissed-off drunk decides to charge me.  If the taser is the only option deployed and you get rushed and miss with even one probe, he has more range with the club and could incapacitate you before you even had the chance to accomplish a drive-stun.  Taser < impact weapon when it is one on one.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:04:10 PM EDT



Originally Posted By TxSgt1911:


Golf club = deadly weapon (can cause serious bodily injury or death).  The hell with the Taser - I'm drawing down if you come after me with one.


This.  I'm not letting anyone charge me with any weapon.    The taser mentality is going to get someone killed, especially when it doesn't work.  The taser has it's place, but not as a primary defensive weapon in a deadly force situation.  



 
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:06:20 PM EDT



Originally Posted By infantryman07:


I work security part-time at a bar in a bad part of town. Last night, we had one hell of a fight (fueled by liquid stupidity). The fight eventually went out to the parking lot, where one individual retrieved a golf club (looked like a driver) out of a trunk with the intention of beating the primary aggressor with it.



What kind of threat would you consider that to be? There's a potential for injury with that kind of weapon, obviously, but I don't know if it could cause death or serious injury. What do you guys think? And thanks in advance for your opinions.


What happened?  



 
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 1:37:42 PM EDT
If I were threatened in a similar manner, I would use whatever tools are available, to stop the threat.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 2:21:16 PM EDT
A pencil can kill someone just like a three inch knife.  Golf club can be deadly as well.

If a 6 year old kid had any of the above then we could tackle it away, use baton, etc. (kid had no training, and acting stupid)  Officer's call.

When a grown man uses something other then fist, its that man's fault that the LEO had to use deadly force.

If a trained fighter attacks a cop, then that fighter's fault that the LEO had to use deadly force.

LEOs are not trained to be Super troopers with Jet Lee's moves.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 3:10:44 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:

Originally Posted By infantryman07:
I work security part-time at a bar in a bad part of town. Last night, we had one hell of a fight (fueled by liquid stupidity). The fight eventually went out to the parking lot, where one individual retrieved a golf club (looked like a driver) out of a trunk with the intention of beating the primary aggressor with it.

What kind of threat would you consider that to be? There's a potential for injury with that kind of weapon, obviously, but I don't know if it could cause death or serious injury. What do you guys think? And thanks in advance for your opinions.

What happened?  
 



I was able to talk the guy with the golf club down, after threatening to Tase him. The armed officer backed me up while this was happening. His friends helped to get him back into the car. After that, I lost track of him, because I had another (unarmed) threat behind me (who, incidentally, was also being held back by his friends. The bystanders really helped us out while all of this was going on).

The primary aggressor got punched a few times through an open window before his buddy drove him away, but I don't think he was injured too badly. My partner and I tackled the puncher, and got him away from the other guy. This was when I was accidentally taken down. My partner executed a take-down while I was still on the guy, so we both went to the ground. I was able to get right back up into the fight, though, so no harm done.

After everything was said and done, the bar management decided to shut down for the night. After that, it was just a matter of making sure that everyone else left. Typically, people hang out in the parking lot for a few minutes after the bar closes; my partner was told that we were much better than the previous security company in how we handled the fight. I'll remember my/your lessons for the next time, though.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 3:47:14 PM EDT
Deadly force situation.

Stop the threat

[/thread]
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 6:05:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 6:07:03 PM EDT by RDP]
Originally Posted By njlohmann:
Originally Posted By tmckeit1:
our dept tells us to respond to a threat one level higher than the threat itself, in this situation i would guess a taser deployment would take care of the situation nicely


Even though I am not a LEO yet (still in college)  I agree with tmckeit1 , although I would consider a golf club a deadly weapon, the way this is playing out I believe that the taser is the best tool for this job.


You need to stay in school.

A taser doesn't work all the time. The distance a taser works at is a limiting factor too.

Using a tool, that has a high failure rate, is your choice. If there is two of you, fine. One cop=gun.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 6:06:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Are you asking if this is a lethal threat?

I'm thinking reasonable bodily harm, but I wouldn't draw down on the guy.


This. I'd match it with an ASP.


Your 26" Asp and me with a golf club??

You have watched too many knight movies to think you could stop the power of the club with a wimpy Asp. We didn't even address the aspect of reach either.
Link Posted: 7/19/2010 6:10:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/19/2010 6:14:34 PM EDT by JonLSU]
No different than someone picking up a rock and getting ready to throw it at you.  If you happen to get hit in the head in either situation, you could black out or die, and the suspect grabs your gun and kills you.  

It all depends if he grabs the golf club out of the trunk and what he does with it after that.  If he holds it by his side and is 15ft away, then no, I'm not going to shoot him.  If he has it back like a baseball bat and is running at me, drop him.

edit- sorry just read the part about beat the other guy down with it.  I say draw down, issue commands, if he is about to pop the guy and you feel he might kill him, light em up.
Also, we don't carry tasers, only an asp and pepper spray
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:30:24 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RDP:
Originally Posted By njlohmann:
Originally Posted By tmckeit1:
our dept tells us to respond to a threat one level higher than the threat itself, in this situation i would guess a taser deployment would take care of the situation nicely


Even though I am not a LEO yet (still in college)  I agree with tmckeit1 , although I would consider a golf club a deadly weapon, the way this is playing out I believe that the taser is the best tool for this job.


You need to stay in school.

A taser doesn't work all the time. The distance a taser works at is a limiting factor too.

Using a tool, that has a high failure rate, is your choice. If there is two of you, fine. One cop=gun.


We have an officer that was shot due to a failed taser hit.  Luckily he was just grazed and is back on duty.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 5:37:41 PM EDT
Originally Posted By RDP:
Originally Posted By SecurityForcesmember:
Originally Posted By bcauz3y:
Are you asking if this is a lethal threat?

I'm thinking reasonable bodily harm, but I wouldn't draw down on the guy.


This. I'd match it with an ASP.


Your 26" Asp and me with a golf club??

You have watched too many knight movies to think you could stop the power of the club with a wimpy Asp. We didn't even address the aspect of reach either.


I agree with RDP.  I clear leather many more times than my asp sees daylight.  It's idotic and self defeating to stay on the same force "tier" as your opponent.  There are many different scenarios that can be played out here.  But one on one, he's getting lead poisoning if he takes a swing at me.  Nobody says you have to get your ass beat before you defend yourself.
Link Posted: 7/20/2010 7:15:31 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 1387Delta:

Originally Posted By TxSgt1911:
Golf club = deadly weapon (can cause serious bodily injury or death).  The hell with the Taser - I'm drawing down if you come after me with one.

This.  I'm not letting anyone charge me with any weapon.    The taser mentality is going to get someone killed, especially when it doesn't work.  The taser has it's place, but not as a primary defensive weapon in a deadly force situation.  
 


I agree.   We don't even have them and I'm really kind of glad, and that is exactly the reason why.

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Link Posted: 7/22/2010 2:21:07 AM EDT
Second degree assault here = assault with a deadly weapon.  First degree is great bodily harm.

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