Posted: 6/22/2010 10:47:04 AM EDT
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I bought a 1009 awhile back through GL. Got a smoking deal on it, but it has problems... like the transmission and torque converter are in the back seat. Transmission has an "X Bad" written on it in grease pencil.
The local transmission shop quoted me $750 to rebuild it. Seems a bit pricey to me. Anyhoo, how should I go about this? Buy a kit and rebuild it myself? Find a different transmission shop? Scrounge for a pulled one at a junkyard? Bear in mind that I've never touched a transmission. |
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If you are going to have to get the tranny rebuilt then you might as well put good stuff into it for longevity, the rebuild kits can be had from companies such as TCI, B&M, Art Carr and many others, when shopping get them to assist you in matching a good torque converter for your motor and also spring for the severe duty bands, clutches along with valve body modifications for your intended type of driving and application. You would be well served to include a tranny gauge, a remote filtration system, a cooler, a deep pan with a drain plug and a poly bushing for the mount. Cry once and enjoy for the life of the rebuild, as the money you invest now will dictate the performance, reliability and service life of the unit. |
| $750 to rebuild it is ridiculous. I had a TH350 rebuilt for $360 with a shift kit included, but that's been a few years ago. The parts aren't much different in price, if at all. Find a different shop, or try your hand at rebuilding it(just buy some good reference manuals, GM factory manuals if possible). |
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How mechanically inclined are you and how much CLEAN space do you have? Part costs if yo do it will depend on how much stuff you need to replace. Say $400-$500 in parts and you get one chance to do it right or you'll be doing it again. Reasonably so, but I'd like to learn more. Space is not a problem. On the other hand, I've had this damn thing for awhile now and I just want to drive it! 
TCI and B&M both have rebuild kits for about 180 bucks. I don't think that includes the torque converter, tho. What are some of the tricky things about rebuilding a TH-400 that are easy to screw up? |
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How mechanically inclined are you and how much CLEAN space do you have? Part costs if yo do it will depend on how much stuff you need to replace. Say $400-$500 in parts and you get one chance to do it right or you'll be doing it again. Reasonably so, but I'd like to learn more. Space is not a problem. TCI and B&M both have rebuild kits for about 180 bucks. I don't think that includes the torque converter, tho. What are some of the tricky things about rebuilding a TH-400 that are easy to screw up? First trick is you really DO need all those small parts.
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How mechanically inclined are you and how much CLEAN space do you have? Part costs if yo do it will depend on how much stuff you need to replace. Say $400-$500 in parts and you get one chance to do it right or you'll be doing it again. Reasonably so, but I'd like to learn more. Space is not a problem. TCI and B&M both have rebuild kits for about 180 bucks. I don't think that includes the torque converter, tho. What are some of the tricky things about rebuilding a TH-400 that are easy to screw up? First trick is you really DO need all those small parts. one o'd dem finickey high falutin mosheens, eh? |
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How mechanically inclined are you and how much CLEAN space do you have? Part costs if yo do it will depend on how much stuff you need to replace. Say $400-$500 in parts and you get one chance to do it right or you'll be doing it again. Reasonably so, but I'd like to learn more. Space is not a problem. TCI and B&M both have rebuild kits for about 180 bucks. I don't think that includes the torque converter, tho. What are some of the tricky things about rebuilding a TH-400 that are easy to screw up? First trick is you really DO need all those small parts. one o'd dem finickey high falutin mosheens, eh? One trick is that you ALWAYS flush out the trans cooler and lines very well. If you even think it has crud in it, replace it. |
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how bad of an idea would it be to buy a used transmission from a wrecked truck? There's some cheap ones listed on craigslist... And what's an "electronic" TH-400? There's some of those on craigslist, too. Is it a 4wd truck? If not, you'll either have to use an adapter or you'll be wasting your money. |
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My best friend has been selling these things (mil cucv's) for like 20 years now. I have a couple. I'm driving an M1028 daily now. Take it to a shop. The mil version is not the civillian version. If you convert to a different unit, I doubt it'll ever run correctly. These are 3 speed units. He just put 2k into a transmission/transfer case at a shop. This was supposed to be dealer cost repair. In the end, the repairs are worth it. I wouldn't attempt to do a rebuild myself if you've never done it before. Needle bearings suck.
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How mechanically inclined are you and how much CLEAN space do you have? Part costs if yo do it will depend on how much stuff you need to replace. Say $400-$500 in parts and you get one chance to do it right or you'll be doing it again. Reasonably so, but I'd like to learn more. Space is not a problem. TCI and B&M both have rebuild kits for about 180 bucks. I don't think that includes the torque converter, tho. What are some of the tricky things about rebuilding a TH-400 that are easy to screw up? First trick is you really DO need all those small parts. Aw, come on. Hunting those springs and little balls all over the garage is half the fun. The other half is guessing where they came from. 
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a TH-400 is a TH-400, is it not? No. A 2wd version has a longer tail and will not bolt up to a 4wd transfer case...that's why I asked if the wrecked truck was also 4wd.
Later models very likely had some type of primitive electronics on them. I *think* one of the later electronic transmissions was a derivative of the TH400. |
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a TH-400 is a TH-400, is it not? No. A 2wd version has a longer tail and will not bolt up to a 4wd transfer case...that's why I asked if the wrecked truck was also 4wd.
Later models very likely had some type of primitive electronics on them. I *think* one of the later electronic transmissions was a derivative of the TH400. The 4L60 is basically a TH400 with some electronic upgrades. It might work in your truck; the 4L60E requires a PCM to control it. IIRC |
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a TH-400 is a TH-400, is it not? No. A 2wd version has a longer tail and will not bolt up to a 4wd transfer case...that's why I asked if the wrecked truck was also 4wd.
Later models very likely had some type of primitive electronics on them. I *think* one of the later electronic transmissions was a derivative of the TH400. The 4L60 is basically a TH400 with some electronic upgrades. It might work in your truck; the 4L60E requires a PCM to control it. IIRC I was thinking that it was the 4L60E, but I didn't want to mis-state it. |
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a TH-400 is a TH-400, is it not? No. A 2wd version has a longer tail and will not bolt up to a 4wd transfer case...that's why I asked if the wrecked truck was also 4wd.
Later models very likely had some type of primitive electronics on them. I *think* one of the later electronic transmissions was a derivative of the TH400. So avoid any that say they are "Long tail shaft" models, right? |
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a TH-400 is a TH-400, is it not? No. A 2wd version has a longer tail and will not bolt up to a 4wd transfer case...that's why I asked if the wrecked truck was also 4wd.
Later models very likely had some type of primitive electronics on them. I *think* one of the later electronic transmissions was a derivative of the TH400. So avoid any that say they are "Long tail shaft" models, right? Turbo 400s are turbo 400s, however there are 2WD and 4WD versions. A 4WD THM 400 willl have the transfer case bolt to it, hence... short tail shaft. Long tailshaft models are 2WD= NO TRANSFER CASE!! The electronic version is NOT the 4L60E, it is the 4L80E. You have the desire, but not the experience. That is why I suggested to you to get the trans rebuilt by one who knows. If you had a friend who'd help you... great, but we wouldn't be having this discussion. A bench tranny job with convertor is what you need. It will be better in the long run. |
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Aside from making sure it came from a 4WD vehicle, what other things should I look for when browsing the various used TH-400s on craigslist? Have they been rebuilt recently, have they been serviced regularily, what type of torque converter... stall speed, if any. Hopefully you will find a recently overhauled one cheap. Good luck!! |
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Theres a 4x4 th400 on ebay right now for $400 from a wrecked truck.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/GM-turbo-400-4x4-transmission-TH400-/290435283620?cmd=ViewItem&pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item439f4abaa4 I'm sure if you poke around locally you can find a used one for half of what the rebuilder wants. Check your local junk yards or ask your local gear heads. |
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you can do it but expect to spend some money, the basic kit isn't to bad cost wise, the torque converter is important to get the correct one. I went with a welded vane converter for the extra duribility it supposedly offers.
I ended up having to replace the majority of the hard parts as well. My transmission was govenor shifting due to the loss of Vacume via the vacume switch on the Injector pump, and I didn't know that was a problem until the Tranny quit. I'd make friends with someone who has rebuilt a few trannys and is willing to help/oversee what you're doing, there are some specialty tools required as well. BTW this was an M1008 CUCV, I finally gave up on the Diesel, repeated blown head gaskets and problems with the injector pump and injectors that I just swapped it out for a small block gas burner. Jason |
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You need about eight feet of shelf that you can lay everything out on as it comes out of the trans, and a separate large CLEAN workspace for cleaning and reassembly.
You need a GOOD manual, not the Haynes manual. Factory is best if you can find one. ATSG manual if you can't. The Haynes manual for GM transmissions might be a good one to borrow from the library or peruse at the auto parts store if you are in doubt about the amount of work you are in for. In fact, the Haynes manual may help you get everything apart, but you will need a better manual to get the parts back together in working order. If you are creative, you don't need four hundred dollars worth of special tools. I just have sockets and wrenches, and about the only thing I had to buy was a set of snap ring pliers. If you can weld and have some metal laying around it's real easy. Otherwise get creative. Spring compressors ... a few pieces of 1/2 inch threaded rod, matching nuts and fender washers, a few sections of 2x4 with spade bit holes bored at the right places, and a few long 5/16 or 3/8 bolts set in the 2x4 at the right diameter will compress that spring set just fine. Stretch the teflon seals just a little, then roll them into place very very carefully. Read that again. Compress them with a hose clamp before you stuff the shaft back in the pump. The pump seal guide can be made from one very large or two large hose clamps I used c clamps to hold the transmission case to a couple pieces of 80/20 extruded aluminum and rested the 80/20 across a pair of sawhorses during disassembly and reassembly. Dunk friction disks, steels, and housings in trans fluid as it goes back together. Keep any dirt, fuzz, leaves, etc out though. Install the clutch pistons with an electrical tape ring wrapped tightly around the lip seals with a long pigtail so you can pull the tape when it is in place Have fun with it. Check your local transmission shop to see if they will order parts for you. The trans shop had parts for me cheaper that way than the cheapest I could get them on the internet, and the guy could get singles of the selective plates or the occasional oddball part so I didn't wind up paying for a set that I didn't need. |
Inspect everything very close as you remove the items from the trans, pay attention how you removed the items. keep them together . a trans is one big puzzle. the bearings also go on one way, at least the ones on ford trans do. take a close look at the seals from the pistons as you remove them, there either round, squared or beveled seals. the beveled seals are the ones you need to pay attention how u removed them. do not roll a seal in place stretch it. it's rubber. most have a certain way you have to install them. the valve body will be very tricky. do not turn it upside down after u remove the plate. you might lose some clips, and without the right manuals will be very hard to find where they came from. where ever you buy your trans parts, they should have some good trans manuals. hope this helps.
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I'm not a mechanic, although I have played with engines before.....I thought torque converters generally don't go bad? Does he need to replace it, even though it's the tranny with the "X-BAD" on it?
Good luck on the tranny, if I were doing it I'd have the funds available for another just-in-case...tag for pics and story.... |
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I'm not a mechanic, although I have played with engines before.....I thought torque converters generally don't go bad? Does he need to replace it, even though it's the tranny with the "X-BAD" on it? Good luck on the tranny, if I were doing it I'd have the funds available for another just-in-case...tag for pics and story.... Usually, yes. There is really no easy way to clean a converter unless it is cut open to do so. The trash from a blown trans will stay inside , and begin to distribute the remains into the new trans in short order. |
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Yeah, I'm going to rebuild it. Fuck it, it'll be a useful skill to have, at least. I like your attitude about it. I'd read everything I could find about it before you start. And buy latex gloves. Lots and lots of latex gloves. Auto trans fluid makes your skin ultra soft and transmission cases are sharp. |
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I'm not a mechanic, although I have played with engines before.....I thought torque converters generally don't go bad? Does he need to replace it, even though it's the tranny with the "X-BAD" on it? Good luck on the tranny, if I were doing it I'd have the funds available for another just-in-case...tag for pics and story.... Usually, yes. There is really no easy way to clean a converter unless it is cut open to do so. The trash from a blown trans will stay inside , and begin to distribute the remains into the new trans in short order. I could probably pay the transmission shop to grind the weld off, clean it, and weld it back up... but I'll bet that wouldn't be much cheaper than just buying a new one. |
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how bad of an idea would it be to buy a used transmission from a wrecked truck? There's some cheap ones listed on craigslist... And what's an "electronic" TH-400? There's some of those on craigslist, too. Year Make Model and where are you ( nearest big city will be fine)...... |
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a TH-400 is a TH-400, is it not? No. A 2wd version has a longer tail and will not bolt up to a 4wd transfer case...that's why I asked if the wrecked truck was also 4wd.
Later models very likely had some type of primitive electronics on them. I *think* one of the later electronic transmissions was a derivative of the TH400. The 4L60 is basically a TH400 with some electronic upgrades. It might work in your truck; the 4L60E requires a PCM to control it. IIRC 4L60 is the most modern version of the 700R4. It does not have any electronics. It was last used in GM trucks in 1992. It's a 4 speed overdrive transmission, on par in terms of strength with the TH350, from which it is derived. In 1993, it was replaced by the 4L60E, which has the electronic control module. 4L80E is the evolution of the TH400. It is a computer controlled, 4 speed overdrive heavy duty trans. It will not be an easy swap, especially if you don't have any mechanical skills. Not the same length which means moving the motor forward or the t-case back (and moving the crossmember), new driveline lengths, making a stand-alone ECM to work, etc. But, if the OD feature is worth it, give it a shot. TH400 4wd version are pretty common, but make sure that it has the correct adapter. The CUCV's (for the most part, and definitely in the case of M1009) used an NP208 transfer case, which I've never seen that combo in the civilian world. Normally the TH400 is mated to the NP205, NP241, or NP203. Whether it's the same adapter or not, I'm not sure. Although, you could always just keep/reuse the original adapter. I'm not certain what's different in the military TH400 as opposed to the standard, I was not aware there were differences. Personally? I'd just get it rebuilt or buy a reman and use yours as a core. If you are itching to do SOMETHING yourself, consider installing it. That part should be pretty simple, provided you have basic handtools, some good jacks, and a smooth concrete floor to work on. Be careful that you don't drop the trans (the trans/xfer combo is heavy), the bellhousings are integral and if you crack or smash it, your expensive rebuilt trans is now worth dick. Good luck! Oh, and with regards to craigslist - consider searching under non-standard terms. Look under parts and under trucks (sometimes its cheaper to buy a blown motor donor truck etc). You're looking for 3/4T and 1T trucks, suburbans, and maybe blazers from 1973-1991ish. Use search words like TH400, Turbo 400, one ton transmission, one ton auto, etc. Don't worry about 'short shaft', most people will list it as 4wd, 4x4, etc. Shit, if you could find a wrecked or blown motor 1 ton truck that had the TH400, NP205, driveshafts, D60/14B, just put all of that under your blazer and call it a day. |
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If you are a good tech, you won't have any trouble. The main advantage is that you won't have to convert some other unit to fit your vehicle. I've done two 400's for my old Jeep with great results. I just had a simple instruction book I picked up somewhere. There aren't any 'bands' or complex adjustments inside these. Friction disks, bearings, seals –– very straightforward.
I used an inverted plastic 5-gal bucket with a hole in the bottom for an assembly 'fixture'. The clutches will fit on it with the shaft stubs pointed down while you assemble the clutch packs and seals. A butter knife works great for tucking in those large diameter seals. Get the 'shift kit' –– The one that gives you 'downshift at any speed'. Then you can impress your friends who insist it can't be done with an automatic. |